Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

Apr 27, 2009 | Posted by: SongBookz | Full story: news.yahoo.com

The trouble they see is not just an America where general support for gay marriage will have driven a wedge between churches and the world, but between churches themselves.

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“equality for ALL means ALL”

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#5353
Feb 11, 2013
 
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
In my peculiar roundabout way I just told you there is no original Bible and took advantage of the opportunity to poke fun at the End Timers. If God actually wrote the Bible there would be no need for translations and as anyone with a familiarty with more than one language knows, translation is pretty much a guessing game.
Thank you for making a point I make often.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

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#5354
Feb 11, 2013
 
Seriously__ wrote:
<quoted text>
IMO, the denial comes from a two fold issue:
1. They would never post in the GLBT forum because they may somehow become associated as such.
2. They want to continually state the mantra "you came to the Christian section so we have the right to repeatedly post scripture to you."
God bless you and yours.
bingo bango!

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

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#5355
Feb 11, 2013
 
Fitz wrote:
<quoted text>
For an atheist you sure have a persucution complex. Disagreement is not hate, but much like the gay left, anyone who disagree's with you is hatefull..
Your mirtha thesis is prety common and easily debunked. What is far more probable is that as Mithraism developed, it started to adopt Christian concepts.What is more probable is that with the explosive nature of the Christian church in the 1st and 2nd century, other cult groups started to adapt themselves to take advantage of some of the teachings found in Christianity. This is certainly the case with what are called the Gnostic "gospels" and is well noted by serious historians. even though there are similarities between Christianity and Mithraism, it is up to the critics to prove that one borrowed from the other. But, considering that the writers of the New Testament were Jews who shunned pagan philosophies and that the Old Testament has all of the themes found in Christianity, it is far more probable that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate the success of Christianity..
You have the cart before the horse
I totally disagree with you and so does secular history based on actual archeological research.

The Mithra cult has not left much in written records but several of their temples have been found and to claim that Christianity preceded Mithraism is contradicted by the hard evidence that has been found:

http://suite101.com/article/archaeology-and-t...

This is not the only site that discusses the findings but it should be helpful in considering the reality of how ancient the Mithra myth is and what the implications of this is for the Roman version of Christianity.

Here is what another site says about the origins of Mithraism:

"The earliest written reference to Mithras comes in the form of a treaty between the
Hittites and the Mitanni about 1375 B.C.E. When the Aryan tribes came down from the
Russian steppes, sometime between 2000 and 1500 B.C.E., they brought their gods with
them. These people were called the Mitanni and entered India and Iran (Persia). Mithras
was a redeemer god and also was the epitome of morality."

http://www.okbns.org/Articles/Mithras%20as%20...

Some use this obvious ancient Mithra connection to the Roman form of patriarchal hierarchical Christianity to dismiss the relevance of anything the historical Jesus said altogether.

Your defense of your church is understandable but consider if you accepted the Church and find it does not match the historical Jesus as I have been maintaining here on topix for the last four years, who do you accept, Jesus, or the Church?

Historical evidence shows you do have a real choice, there was a real Jesus, He just isn't the one people today would recognize.

If you strip away all of the baggage of the church, you find a simple experiential truth that can be confirmed on an individual basis and is the good news that the historical Jesus shared, the truth that sets you free!

GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

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#5356
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Fitz wrote:
<quoted text>
For an atheist you sure have a persucution complex. Disagreement is not hate, but much like the gay left, anyone who disagree's with you is hatefull..
Your mirtha thesis is prety common and easily debunked. What is far more probable is that as Mithraism developed, it started to adopt Christian concepts.What is more probable is that with the explosive nature of the Christian church in the 1st and 2nd century, other cult groups started to adapt themselves to take advantage of some of the teachings found in Christianity. This is certainly the case with what are called the Gnostic "gospels" and is well noted by serious historians. even though there are similarities between Christianity and Mithraism, it is up to the critics to prove that one borrowed from the other. But, considering that the writers of the New Testament were Jews who shunned pagan philosophies and that the Old Testament has all of the themes found in Christianity, it is far more probable that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate the success of Christianity..
You have the cart before the horse
It's called a timeline.

Mithraism was already big before Christ was born.

Mithraism already celebrated December 25th with trees and gifts before Christ was born.

Early Christians did not follow these pagan rituals.

Christianity fully adopted this nonsense around the 4th century - so it was never a part of true Christianity. It just got blended in as a way of encouraging membership.

This is not some dumb rumor on the internet like you guys pretend. I was amazed to find this information in a real live library in the 80's. Go to the "World History" section and EVERY single book talks about Mithraism as a matter of fact when discussing religion in the Roman Empire.

Next.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

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#5357
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
No one cares what an "atheist who plays Catholic on Topix" thinks about Christianity. You've proven time and time again to know absolutely nothing about the Word of God.
Why can't you make your points without disparaging other people and/or outright lying about them and mischaracterizing them?

Read up on "bearing false witness."

Jesus didn't make an exception to say you can be a dick to people you don't like.
Fitz

Saint Clair Shores, MI

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#5358
Feb 11, 2013
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again you're being one sided to show a one sided opinion.
There are Jewish rabbis that believe Isaiah 7:14 referred to a virgin birth.
There are Jewish rabbis that have converted to Christianity and who also believed Isaiah 7:14 was interpreted to mean a virgin birth.
There are also Jewish rabbis that don't interpret Isaiah 7:14 to mean a virgin birth and that the prophecy happened already.
So how do you tell who has the right interpretation?
The fact remains that the word 'almah' when used for a young girl/female about to be married, was used to denote her also being a virgin, meaning she had never known carnal intercourse.
See, you leave out the fact about Israelite society that happened long ago. That a Israelite male that wed a girl/female who was suppose to be a virgin because she had never been married before, if there was no blood from her on the wedding night, it meant to Israelites than that she wasn't a virgin. That she had had intercourse and thus would have been judged committing adultery and in most cased was stoned to death unless she could flee the village to places where she wasn't known.
So most of the time where 'almah' was used in the context of a young unmarried girl/female that was about to be married, it was also used to describe her state as a 'virgin'. Not tough to understand.
Well unless you wish to show proof that in the Israelite culture 2000 plus years ago, a young unwed girl/female that was about to be married, that it was normal and okay for that girl/female NOT TO BE A VIRGIN on her wedding night? Do you wish to show evidence that young never before wed girls/females about to be married, do you wish to show it wasn't important to that husband that she was a virgin?
Almah referencing an young, unmarried girl/female about to be married, almah referred to the virgin state of a young girl/female that had never been married and (supposedly) had never had intercourse because for a female to have intercourse without being married was a death sentence by stoning in the Israelite society 2000 plus years ago.
Very nice & concise, fair minded and acurate discription of this ongoing controversey of translation.

Your generosity of spirit is appreciated..

I happen to talk with serious orthodox Rabbi's often, and one who is a close freind and collugue...He translates Isaiah 7:14 as referred to a virgin birth, yet he dosent think Christ was the Messiah or Mary was the prophecy being fullfilled.

This is often the case, with more emphatic people insisting that it dosent denote virginity simply in order to try and "debunk" the claims of the Messiah.
Fitz

Saint Clair Shores, MI

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#5359
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
<quoted text>
I totally disagree with you and so does secular history based on actual archeological research.
The Mithra cult has not left much in written records but several of their temples have been found and to claim that Christianity preceded Mithraism is contradicted by the hard evidence that has been found:
http://suite101.com/article/archaeology-and-t...
This is not the only site that discusses the findings but it should be helpful in considering the reality of how ancient the Mithra myth is and what the implications of this is for the Roman version of Christianity.
Here is what another site says about the origins of Mithraism:
"The earliest written reference to Mithras comes in the form of a treaty between the
Hittites and the Mitanni about 1375 B.C.E. When the Aryan tribes came down from the
Russian steppes, sometime between 2000 and 1500 B.C.E., they brought their gods with
them. These people were called the Mitanni and entered India and Iran (Persia). Mithras
was a redeemer god and also was the epitome of morality."
http://www.okbns.org/Articles/Mithras%20as%20...
Some use this obvious ancient Mithra connection to the Roman form of patriarchal hierarchical Christianity to dismiss the relevance of anything the historical Jesus said altogether.
Your defense of your church is understandable but consider if you accepted the Church and find it does not match the historical Jesus as I have been maintaining here on topix for the last four years, who do you accept, Jesus, or the Church?
Historical evidence shows you do have a real choice, there was a real Jesus, He just isn't the one people today would recognize.
If you strip away all of the baggage of the church, you find a simple experiential truth that can be confirmed on an individual basis and is the good news that the historical Jesus shared, the truth that sets you free!
GOD is LOVE. WE are ALL ONE WITH GOD, even the unloving!
To say thatthe Mia cult preceded Chritianity is not to say that the elements atributed to Mirtha were part of his mythology before Christianity first made them popular. The idea was that this military cult adopted these theme's to try and co-opt the popularity of Christianity. This is not unusual in the first 3 centuries after Christs death & resurection. Most Gnostic writting of the time use figures in the Gospel narratives and try and weave them into their cults.

Its not surprising that Mirtha cult followers would do the same given its popularity at the time.

I never said I was a Catholic or even a Christian. But the Catholic Church predates scripture and was responsible for compiling what we know as the Bible today.

Your insitance that "God is love" is correct. The love aspect is not a fuzzy feeling however... it is a referance to sacrifice.. Tha is Christ on the Cross dying for mankinds salvation..the ultimante act of a loving God.

That is why the symbol of Christianity is Christ on the Cross... as Paul said "I come to preach Christ crucified".

It is not simply what Christ said or how he lived that is central to Christianity, rather it is what Christ did..that is the central defining act of Gods will for humanity.. That he would sacrifice his only begotten son, that this sson would sacrifice his very life & willingly for mankind.

Obviously I and so many others will take the teachings of thousands of years of Christian witness and theology over the opinions of an atheist and his cursory, cherry picked, misunderstandings of a long dead Pagasn cult.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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Merced, CA

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Feb 11, 2013
 

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Neil Andblowme wrote:
<quoted text>
The facts are these: the Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. The author chose the word alma. If the author meant virgin he would have used betulah. He did not. Period.
That is a simplistic argument. Now you are being like the Christians who are intentionally being blind to facts. You are free to do so, but you won't be convincing anybody.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#5361
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Tony C wrote:
<quoted text>
It's called a timeline.
Mithraism was already big before Christ was born.
Mithraism already celebrated December 25th with trees and gifts before Christ was born.
Early Christians did not follow these pagan rituals.
Christianity fully adopted this nonsense around the 4th century - so it was never a part of true Christianity. It just got blended in as a way of encouraging membership.
This is not some dumb rumor on the internet like you guys pretend. I was amazed to find this information in a real live library in the 80's. Go to the "World History" section and EVERY single book talks about Mithraism as a matter of fact when discussing religion in the Roman Empire.
Next.
Most Christians today know that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th. The Catholic wanted to eliminate paganism and used that date to get the people to forget their pagan roots and celebrate Jesus instead. The Bible doesn't tell us when Jesus was born, so one can't use this as an example of Jesus just being created from other religions of the past.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#5362
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Neil Andblowme wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact is, if they meant virgin, they would have used betulah. You can spin 'almah' into any nebulous thing you wish, but there is a word that means virgin: betulah
Most people realize that pregnancy, 2000 yrs ago, inferred sexual relations. Women didn't get pregnant without it back then.
"Interestingly enough when the Septuagint was written by the 72 elders of Israel (six from each tribe) the writers specifically chose the Greek word "parthenos," for virgin. This clearly demonstrates the common Jewish understanding of this passage at that time. There is no doubt that Jewish leaders looked at this passage as a messianic passage with the expectation of some type of supernatural birth."

http://jewishroots.net/library/prophecy/isaia...

Those Jews would have understood the meaning and the intent far better than you.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

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#5363
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Laci Ann 7 wrote:
<quoted text>I would dare say if old Christopher Hitchens could have just 1 minute back here on earth......he would tell a very different story. At the moment of death Hitchens went to hell if he did not repent which is very unlikely he did. He was brave in his stand against God,he thought anyway. look at the shape he was in before his death...What soever a man sows that also will he reap. Hell is hot and there is no returning to get a second chance at Heaven. Live and death is set before you, choose this day who you will serve.
Tell you what...provide evidence. Or, stop saying these things as though they are facts. Until there is evidence, it's just stories. If you want to believe stories, that's fine, but stories aren't facts, and simply believing in those stories doesn't graduate them to facts.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

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#5364
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm tired of play "Christians" making a mockery out of the sacrificial BLOOD of Jesus. They think it's funny to get *giggles and high-fives and tee hees and laughs* on a discussion forum.........but they are a complete disgusting disgrace.
They are not Christians at all!
Is transubstantiation real?
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

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#5365
Feb 11, 2013
 

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dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know of any English Bible that doesn't condemn homosexuals to Hell.
The Authorized King James Bible doesn't condemn us
.
Quite the opposite
.
It provides the Olde English script for gay marriage that we use in our churches
.
++++++++++
1 Samuel 18 :1> And it came to passe when hee made an ende of speaking vnto Saul, that the soule of Ionathan was knit with the soule of Dauid, and Ionathan loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:3> Then Ionathan and Dauid made a couenant, because he loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:4> And Ionathan stript himselfe of the robe that was vpon him, and gaue it to Dauid, and his garments, euen to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
.
1 Samuel 20:41> And assoone as the ladde was gone, Dauid arose out of a place toward the South, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himselfe three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, vntill Dauid exceeded.
.
1 Samuel 20:42> And Ionathan said to Dauid, Goe in peace, forasmuch as wee haue sworne both of vs in the Name of the Lord, saying; The Lord be betweene me and thee, and betweene my seede and thy seede for euer. And hee arose, and departed: and Ionathan went into the citie.
.
2 Samuel 1:25> How are the mightie fallen in the midst of the battell! O Ionathan, thou wast slaine in thine high places.
.
2 Samuel 1:26> I am distressed for thee, my brother Ionathan, very pleasant hast thou beene vnto mee: thy loue to mee was wonderfull, passing the loue of women.
++++++++++

“equality for ALL means ALL”

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#5366
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Most Christians today know that Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th. The Catholic wanted to eliminate paganism and used that date to get the people to forget their pagan roots and celebrate Jesus instead. The Bible doesn't tell us when Jesus was born, so one can't use this as an example of Jesus just being created from other religions of the past.
My argument is not that Jesus was created from other religions.

My argument is that the celebration of Christmas is a recycled holiday stolen from Mithraism - yes, to get people to convert to Christianity.

When Jesus was born is not at all important, neither is celebrating that day. Celebration of birthdays was never considered a Christian thing.

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

Since: Nov 12

saved by grace through faith

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#5367
Feb 11, 2013
 

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Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
The Authorized King James Bible doesn't condemn us
.
Quite the opposite
.
It provides the Olde English script for gay marriage that we use in our churches
.
++++++++++
1 Samuel 18 :1> And it came to passe when hee made an ende of speaking vnto Saul, that the soule of Ionathan was knit with the soule of Dauid, and Ionathan loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:3> Then Ionathan and Dauid made a couenant, because he loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:4> And Ionathan stript himselfe of the robe that was vpon him, and gaue it to Dauid, and his garments, euen to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
.
1 Samuel 20:41> And assoone as the ladde was gone, Dauid arose out of a place toward the South, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himselfe three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, vntill Dauid exceeded.
.
1 Samuel 20:42> And Ionathan said to Dauid, Goe in peace, forasmuch as wee haue sworne both of vs in the Name of the Lord, saying; The Lord be betweene me and thee, and betweene my seede and thy seede for euer. And hee arose, and departed: and Ionathan went into the citie.
.
2 Samuel 1:25> How are the mightie fallen in the midst of the battell! O Ionathan, thou wast slaine in thine high places.
.
2 Samuel 1:26> I am distressed for thee, my brother Ionathan, very pleasant hast thou beene vnto mee: thy loue to mee was wonderfull, passing the loue of women.
++++++++++
Who are you fooling? None of those verses show anything other than David and Jonathan being close friends, like brothers.

Here are those same verses from the 1611 in modern spelling.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

“No Allah: know peace”

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Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus said there was only one way. Argue with Him.
Yes, and that way was the Judaism that he preached throughout his life.

“No Allah: know peace”

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Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
Taking bible quotes out of context is what the anti-Christian trash sites do. One has to read before and after the verse to actually understand it's full meaning. This is common sense to most people except the anti-Christians who lack even the most basic bible understanding.
Taking Bible quotes out of context is what CHRISTIANS do. That is the only way that people can delude themselves into thinking that xianity has ANY basis in the Bible.

“No Allah: know peace”

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John from Texas wrote:
If the bible is literal.... Where exactly is this "Lake of Fire"?
You are from Texas and you need to ask?

(And since humor never manages to survive the process of posting, yes that was a joke...)

“No Allah: know peace”

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Laci Ann 7 wrote:
<quoted text> confronting sin is not wrong and I will not allow you to bully me into backing down, from what I know is wrong! These are the Christian threads, if you don't want to read my post by all means scroll right on by. Just know this until I decide to leave here, I will be calling SIN-SIN!
Get use to it, live with it.......what ever.
Too bad you don't have the slightest clue as to what constitutes sin...

Hint: there are no verses in the Bible that label homosexuality a sin.

“No Allah: know peace”

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Feb 11, 2013
 

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Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you'll just copy/paste from the same old tired anti-Christian sites. Yawn..........learn to think for yourself!
I fully admit that I believe the bible is the 100% true, inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God.
Inerrant huh?

Who was Joseph's father? Was it Jacob as GoMatt says, or was it Heli as GoLuke says? If one is right, then the other is obviously wrong. Of course, they could BOTH be wrong...

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