Letters: Church anguish over gay marriage

Mar 14, 2012 | Posted by: Gay And Proud | Full story: www.guardian.co.uk

I find it sad that, of all the ills in the world, the Church of England and Catholic church choose to unite and speak out against gay marriage.

Editor's note: a collection of letters to the editor of the UK Guardian regarding the topic of religious opposition to same-sex marriage.

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Truthteller

Pekin, IL

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#1
Mar 14, 2012
 

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No truly Christian church has a choice. The Bible repeatedly commands against all homosexual behavior in the plainest of terms and in both Testaments.
ImsoGAY

Greybull, WY

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#2
Mar 14, 2012
 

Judged:

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Truthteller wrote:
No truly Christian church has a choice. The Bible repeatedly commands against all homosexual behavior in the plainest of terms and in both Testaments.
OK, but the bible repeatedly commands against the consumption of strong and hot drinks(alcohol and coffee), and commands that adulterers be stoned. Do these apply to any of of the "truly" Christian churches you've heard of? Not likely. Also, just for something to think about: in the book of Joshua, it says: "Choose ye now whom ye will serve this day. Whether it be the gods of thy fathers, which are on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in the land of which ye dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." That means that God is telling people to choose whom they will worship, in fact he was basically giving permission to them to do so. It's also saying that what you worship, is your right, and what others worship is their right. Obviously, there aren't very many(if any) truly Christian churches, just people trying to justify their hatred.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

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#3
Mar 15, 2012
 
Truthteller wrote:
No truly Christian church has a choice. The Bible repeatedly commands against all homosexual behavior in the plainest of terms and in both Testaments.
Reading the Bible is 100% voluntary; so its your own dang fault
.
It drives 31% of the world's population to insanity; including you

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

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#5
Mar 15, 2012
 
ImsoGAY wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, but the bible repeatedly commands against the consumption of strong and hot drinks(alcohol and coffee), and commands that adulterers be stoned. Do these apply to any of of the "truly" Christian churches you've heard of? Not likely. Also, just for something to think about: in the book of Joshua, it says: "Choose ye now whom ye will serve this day. Whether it be the gods of thy fathers, which are on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in the land of which ye dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." That means that God is telling people to choose whom they will worship, in fact he was basically giving permission to them to do so. It's also saying that what you worship, is your right, and what others worship is their right. Obviously, there aren't very many(if any) truly Christian churches, just people trying to justify their hatred.
One must consider that the command to stone adulterers was a command given to the nation of Israel. It obviously has no standing in our country.

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

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#6
Mar 15, 2012
 
ImsoGAY wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, but the bible repeatedly commands against the consumption of strong and hot drinks(alcohol and coffee), and commands that adulterers be stoned. Do these apply to any of of the "truly" Christian churches you've heard of? Not likely. Also, just for something to think about: in the book of Joshua, it says: "Choose ye now whom ye will serve this day. Whether it be the gods of thy fathers, which are on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in the land of which ye dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." That means that God is telling people to choose whom they will worship, in fact he was basically giving permission to them to do so. It's also saying that what you worship, is your right, and what others worship is their right. Obviously, there aren't very many(if any) truly Christian churches, just people trying to justify their hatred.
To put it all in proper context, sin is still sin, even if the punishments prescribed in the Old Testament are not and cannot be enforced today. Most of what was banned by the Old Testament continued to be frowned on in the New Testament.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

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#7
Mar 15, 2012
 
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>To put it all in proper context, sin is still sin, even if the punishments prescribed in the Old Testament are not and cannot be enforced today. Most of what was banned by the Old Testament continued to be frowned on in the New Testament.
In another thread here, I recently explained why *no one* is going to buy this except for people whose insistence upon it -- probably, in all likelihood, like yours -- is based in stubbornness and/or fear.

You people make way, way too many INTRICATE excuses which are way too COINCIDENTAL to hold water. Magically, these various prohibitions are "sacrosanct" while these others are to be "ignored."

Somehow, by even more magical a coincidence, "being gay" comes out on top of the list as the worst, worst thing anyone could be, the one thing the "religious" the world over are screaming themselves hoarse about.

I'm not even saying this for your benefit; you won't budge. I am saying it in case anyone else sees it and can think for themselves. I certainly have made up my mind and you will neeeeever convince me *BECAUSE* of the way in which you oh-so-coincidentally dismiss certain biblical "prohibitions" while claiming others obtain.

It's senseless.*shrug* It looks highly manipulative.*shrug* Count me out, forever and ever and ever. I say so proudly, I say so from a moral perspective, and I say so under the consideration that it is my *moral duty* to reject those points of view *because* they create damage and hatred and sow discord and division.

Which I can *see* every single day of my life.

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

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#8
Mar 15, 2012
 
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
In another thread here, I recently explained why *no one* is going to buy this except for people whose insistence upon it -- probably, in all likelihood, like yours -- is based in stubbornness and/or fear.
You people make way, way too many INTRICATE excuses which are way too COINCIDENTAL to hold water. Magically, these various prohibitions are "sacrosanct" while these others are to be "ignored."
Somehow, by even more magical a coincidence, "being gay" comes out on top of the list as the worst, worst thing anyone could be, the one thing the "religious" the world over are screaming themselves hoarse about.
I'm not even saying this for your benefit; you won't budge. I am saying it in case anyone else sees it and can think for themselves. I certainly have made up my mind and you will neeeeever convince me *BECAUSE* of the way in which you oh-so-coincidentally dismiss certain biblical "prohibitions" while claiming others obtain.
It's senseless.*shrug* It looks highly manipulative.*shrug* Count me out, forever and ever and ever. I say so proudly, I say so from a moral perspective, and I say so under the consideration that it is my *moral duty* to reject those points of view *because* they create damage and hatred and sow discord and division.
Which I can *see* every single day of my life.
If I didn't know better. I would say that this is that poster from Philadelphia who has posted under various other names with posts far less tame than what I am responding to. You obviously are lacking in Bible knowledge.
aur56

Aurora, MO

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#9
Mar 15, 2012
 
Homosexuality is no different than any other sin in the bible. Adultry ,a sin. Murder, a sin. Lying, a sin. Many sins, all are the same in Gods eyes. A sin is a sin, period. All sins are wrong equally. In Gods eyes all are equally wrong. All can be forgiven if you ask for forgivness.Sincerly, ask, not just lip service. It is not hard to understand, we are all forgiven IF we ask God. The 10 commandments are the rules we live by. Read them, then start reading you bible.Don't interpret it till you read it all.

Since: Apr 08

Chagrin Falls, OH

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#10
Mar 15, 2012
 
aur56 wrote:
Homosexuality is no different than any other sin in the bible. Adultry ,a sin. Murder, a sin. Lying, a sin. Many sins, all are the same in Gods eyes. A sin is a sin, period. All sins are wrong equally. In Gods eyes all are equally wrong. All can be forgiven if you ask for forgivness.Sincerly, ask, not just lip service. It is not hard to understand, we are all forgiven IF we ask God. The 10 commandments are the rules we live by. Read them, then start reading you bible.Don't interpret it till you read it all.
Have YOU read it all?

Why should non-Christians care what is in the Bible in the first place? Do Christians care what is in the Koran, or in the holy scriptures of other religions?

Why should Christians presume that their particular religion's rules should be made into law for everyone?
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

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#11
Mar 15, 2012
 
aur56 wrote:
Homosexuality is no different than any other sin in the bible. Adultry ,a sin. Murder, a sin. Lying, a sin. Many sins, all are the same in Gods eyes. A sin is a sin, period. All sins are wrong equally. In Gods eyes all are equally wrong. All can be forgiven if you ask for forgivness.Sincerly, ask, not just lip service. It is not hard to understand, we are all forgiven IF we ask God. The 10 commandments are the rules we live by. Read them, then start reading you bible.Don't interpret it till you read it all.
Well here they are; hon:
.
++++++++++
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
.
3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day
.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother
.
5. Thou shalt not kill
.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery
.
7. Thou shalt not steal
.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
.
http://www.radixguys.com/warroom/tencommandme...
++++++++++
.
So; in your opinion; which one is it?

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

In the heads of trolls

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#12
Mar 15, 2012
 
Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Well here they are; hon:
.
++++++++++
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
.
3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day
.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother
.
5. Thou shalt not kill
.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery
.
7. Thou shalt not steal
.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
.
http://www.radixguys.com/warroom/tencommandme...
++++++++++
.
So; in your opinion; which one is it?
What did the poster say and what didn't he say? He said that he followed the Ten Commandments. He did not say that the Bible did not have additional prohibitions.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

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#13
Mar 15, 2012
 
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>What did the poster say and what didn't he say? He said that he followed the Ten Commandments. He did not say that the Bible did not have additional prohibitions.
Here is what the poster said:
.
++++++++++
"Homosexuality is no different than any other sin in the bible. Adultry ,a sin. Murder, a sin. Lying, a sin. Many sins, all are the same in Gods eyes. A sin is a sin, period. All sins are wrong equally. In Gods eyes all are equally wrong. All can be forgiven if you ask for forgivness.Sincerly, ask, not just lip service. It is not hard to understand, we are all forgiven IF we ask God. The 10 commandments are the rules we live by. Read them, then start reading you bible.Don't interpret it till you read it all."
++++++++++
.
Here is my reply to the poster:
.
++++++++++
"Well here they are; hon:
.
++++++++++
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
.
3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day
.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother
.
5. Thou shalt not kill
.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery
.
7. Thou shalt not steal
.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
.
http://www.radixguys.com/warroom/tencommandme...
++++++++++
.
So; in your opinion; which one is it?"
++++++++++

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

In the heads of trolls

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#14
Mar 15, 2012
 
Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is what the poster said:
.
++++++++++
"Homosexuality is no different than any other sin in the bible. Adultry ,a sin. Murder, a sin. Lying, a sin. Many sins, all are the same in Gods eyes. A sin is a sin, period. All sins are wrong equally. In Gods eyes all are equally wrong. All can be forgiven if you ask for forgivness.Sincerly, ask, not just lip service. It is not hard to understand, we are all forgiven IF we ask God. The 10 commandments are the rules we live by. Read them, then start reading you bible.Don't interpret it till you read it all."
++++++++++
.
Here is my reply to the poster:
.
++++++++++
"Well here they are; hon:
.
++++++++++
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me
.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
.
3. Thou shalt keep holy the sabbath day
.
4. Honor thy father and thy mother
.
5. Thou shalt not kill
.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery
.
7. Thou shalt not steal
.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife
.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods
.
http://www.radixguys.com/warroom/tencommandme...
++++++++++
.
So; in your opinion; which one is it?"
++++++++++
What's your point?
aur56

Aurora, MO

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#15
Mar 15, 2012
 
Gay And Proud wrote:
<quoted text>
Have YOU read it all?
Why should non-Christians care what is in the Bible in the first place? Do Christians care what is in the Koran, or in the holy scriptures of other religions?
Why should Christians presume that their particular religion's rules should be made into law for everyone?
I have read it all. I also do care about other peoples relious books,including the Koran. I am a Christian, but I believe everyone has the right to go to any church they please, or temple,etc. I never said that Christians should make the rules, I simply said the rules according to my beliefs. IF you are a Christian,then you know your set of rules, you may choose not to follow them but that doesn't make them any less valid. You are trying to start an ugly discussion on here, I was not.
ImsoGAY

Greybull, WY

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#16
Mar 15, 2012
 
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>One must consider that the command to stone adulterers was a command given to the nation of Israel. It obviously has no standing in our country.
If that was just for people in Israel, then so is every other comandment. After all, they were only given to the people of Israel. Therefore none of the Bible pertains to anywhere else.

Since: Apr 08

Chagrin Falls, OH

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#17
Mar 15, 2012
 
aur56 wrote:
<quoted text> I have read it all. I also do care about other peoples relious books,including the Koran. I am a Christian, but I believe everyone has the right to go to any church they please, or temple,etc. I never said that Christians should make the rules, I simply said the rules according to my beliefs. IF you are a Christian,then you know your set of rules, you may choose not to follow them but that doesn't make them any less valid. You are trying to start an ugly discussion on here, I was not.
Why are you on here then if not to push your religious beliefs onto people who don't follow your religion?

If we wanted to learn about your religion we could easily go to a church, or visit a church's website. We wouldn't come to a GLBT news discussion board (like this one on Topix) in order to learn about your religion.

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

In the heads of trolls

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#18
Mar 15, 2012
 
ImsoGAY wrote:
<quoted text>
If that was just for people in Israel, then so is every other comandment. After all, they were only given to the people of Israel. Therefore none of the Bible pertains to anywhere else.
Obviously, the punishments required by the Bible cannot be carried out unless a nation recognizes the finality of the Bible laws and no nation is doing that today. That does not negate the rest of the teachings of the Bible.

Since: Apr 08

Chagrin Falls, OH

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#19
Mar 15, 2012
 
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>Obviously, the punishments required by the Bible cannot be carried out unless a nation recognizes the finality of the Bible laws and no nation is doing that today. That does not negate the rest of the teachings of the Bible.
Uganda's leaders are certainly trying their best to apply your vaunted Biblical laws. Proposed death penalties for being gay are really helping them make allies internationally, right?
aur56

Aurora, MO

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#20
Mar 15, 2012
 
Gay And Proud wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you on here then if not to push your religious beliefs onto people who don't follow your religion?
If we wanted to learn about your religion we could easily go to a church, or visit a church's website. We wouldn't come to a GLBT news discussion board (like this one on Topix) in order to learn about your religion.
I have not pushed my beliefs onto anyone. I was simply saying that you or anyone has the right to believe what they choose, if you are talking about what is biblical then that is my opinion, and only that,mine. I find it terrible that any church including mine would not accept gay people into it. All Christian churches should accept ALL people, without question of their orientation. The basis of Christianity is acceptance and tolerance of ALL people. That is a simple concept, the Ten Commandments are just the rules to live by, good rules whether christian or not. And I don't see anything about sexual orientation mentioned in the Ten Commandments, so I guess I'm done here, didn'y mean to offend anyone.

“The trolls hate this guy”

Since: Jul 09

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#21
Mar 15, 2012
 
Gay And Proud wrote:
<quoted text>
Uganda's leaders are certainly trying their best to apply your vaunted Biblical laws. Proposed death penalties for being gay are really helping them make allies internationally, right?
Uganda is anything but a shining example of a nation humbling itself before God. They are a corrupt nation that happens to hate gays.

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