double standard in army

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Since: Oct 10

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#1 Dec 18, 2010
this is a text from marcel laurent in a yahoo forum ...

in Russia (lot of pics of dozen young men naked in front of female doctors AND female soldiers) as well as in the other ex ussr countries. Since the majority of the medics are female and boys are always checked up in the nude at one time or the other during the induction process, it seems that they do not care with female officers being present.

In the USA ; a lot of new recruits relate this kind of process ; it has been decided one year ago that non-medical female should not be present anymore

In germany ; young men are checked up one by one but in the nude by female doctors assisted by female nurses or/and secretaries. remember the young recruit who try to sue the army for discrimination, female volunteers being checked up only by female or with a chaperon

In the Netherlands : young recruit were striped naked ALL THE DAY for the medical physical and stay naked during psychological tests and even TO GO AND EAT IN THE REFECTORY where the service is made by young girls their age. A dutch man related this in this forum, a story that has been confirmed by one of my dutch friend who experienced this in the early 90s ( oh yes , 20 years ago, nearly pre-history)

And I am not an expert ; but it seems that in every country where feminism is strong enough and where women finally receaved the same rights to enter the army, a double standard is still existing when dealing with sex modesty.

Another example : when my cousin enter the french navy in 1994, they were a few women , most of them non commissioned officers. Enlisted men shared a communal shower, but in the same shower-rooms, 4 cubicles were destinated to the non-commissioned officers and 2 women working with them. The women protested that to shower in the same room than dozen of naked young men, even in a locked cubicle, was a threat to them. The poor ladies, having to cross a room full of naked men each morning didn't succeed to have their own room (there was not) or to shower totally alone, but nobody thought at one time that the boys could protest to shower with clothed women passing by...

I didn't experienced such thing, but when I went to the military in 1991, in Fontainebleau, there was as many as 50 female volunteers which was new for the regiment. They had to come in the boys barrack every morning for the call up which was not a problem since we were supposed to be ready by the time; Yet, boys were not allowed to approach their barracks at more than 50 metres even though our shower room had large windows facing the girls dormitories. We expected 3 months for the windows to be obscurated by translucide (?) window-pane.

So I think that double standard and the negation of male modesty is still vivid today.

Since: Nov 10

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#2 Dec 19, 2010
It seems that this was common in the past in many European countries and in America where in many induction centres for physicals of new recruits these boys were frequently paraded naked in view of female non-medical staff. I have seen several accounts of this, and seems to have been common in the past when there was compulsary draft in the army in most of these countries. It seems to be not so common today when the armies of most of these countries are today voluntary.

Since: Nov 10

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#3 Dec 19, 2010
I have seen many accounts from the Vietnam war era in America where many make-shift induction centres had to be set up all over America to do the physicals of the constant groups of boys and young men being called up for the army. Many recounted how they had to wait nude in groups in corridors to enter the physical exams office one by one with female clerks in adjacent rooms able to see them.
I have also seen some pictures of induction centres in Russia with the nude boys waiting to be examined in front of female clerks and secretaries sitting at their desks.
But like I said, this doesn't seem to be so common today in all of these countries. Do you know of any countries which still have this system?

Since: Oct 10

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#4 Dec 20, 2010
I think that today almost every former communist country have kept this "tradition"

but I also know that a part of women in army are there to see dicks . And as soon as there is one woman feminist officer in charge , she is happy to humiliate men like this.
so you don't have to look very far to see this happen.
furthermore , you know that most of boys don't complain under women authority...
a paradise for feminists

Since: Aug 10

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#5 Jan 12, 2011
When I was in High School, all of the students were given a physical exam at the beginning of each school year.
The athletes of the school were given more thorough physicals than the students who were not athletes.
I was an athlete and our physicals took place in the locker room. Each student was examined without privacy while the other students were there. The students could watch the other student's physical from a distance or not. We were all naked while we were waiting for our physicals.
Pertaining to modesty and females being present, the school nurse (female) was present each year helping the doctor (male). During two of our physicals the vice principal (female) came in, stood and looked around for a minute and then left. The doctor touched or handled most external body parts. Of the students, only males were present. I don't know how the females were given physicals in school.
jean -rene from france

Paris, France

#6 Jan 18, 2011
I am a french man and i was a student when the military service was still compulsory for each young man if he was declared fit to do it in the middle of the 60's.

Whe had two physicals at that time, we had to report at 18 age to a pre-induction military medical center for thorough physicals which were performed mostly in group and without any privacy nor respect of our modesty since we were naked for a long time. The exams took place after a shower gang in a large group supervised by non commisionners officers.

But we had also to report the same year a few weeks after in front of a draft board commission (composed of a dozen of male persons, some civil ones, some military ones and one doctor) which had to take the official decision about our fitness after a quick physical which was nevertheless rather embarrassing since we were naked in a large group before being examined and looked by all these persons while we were stark naked during the exam in a large group. It lasted not a long time, only 5 or 10 minutes for each young man examined.

I was never examined in presence of women, neither medical persons, nor non medical persons, but I presume that it could happen some years ago when the number of women military doctors was increasing but I don't know what was the process of the examination, may be it had already changed.

Now that there is no more a mandatory military service but only volonteers who joined the army, they are most of the time examined by women doctors but not in the same way as in the past, they were examined alone, things have changed a lot, and modesty of young men is more respected than in my time of being a draftee.

When I had to report in front of the draft board commission, it did not happen to me and it was certainly seldom to happen, but it was true that one woman could be a member of the draft board commission if she was the major of the city where the physicals took place or where the young men summoned for that day of exam were living. In that czase she could obviously see the young men of 18 age naked because the process of the physicals was normally the same.

I have heard of that case and read it in some newspapers many years ago but you were unlucky when it happened because it was not the common situation.

If you look on internet to photos of military physicals of chinese draftees, we can see that they are generally completely naked in a very large group but always only in presence of males.

It was (and certainly and it is always true) exactly the opposite in Russia and many of the ancient communist countries where there was still a mandatory military service, we can see on photos or documentaries that they are naked or at least semi-naked wearing just underwears very often in presence of women, either medical persons but apparently also clerks or other non medical persons.

There was also some relations of russian pre-induction military physicals some years ago where the young men of 18 age were naked and examined in presence of female teachers or secretaries or vice principals or principals of their schools ?
jean -rene from france

Paris, France

#7 Jan 18, 2011
to Older Jock :

As regards school physicals for sports in high school, after reading your post, I think that the presence of the school female nurse was logical, we had also always a female nurse at school physicals, she was a medical person, so it was not a big deal except if she was young?
you were lucky in a certain way to have a male doctor even if for me it was the same to be examined by a male doctor or a female doctor butI know that some male teenagers in high school did not like it.
The bad thing was that the vice- principal of your school, a woman could come in the locker room and saw you naked for a minute, I presume that it was to be sure that all was OK and that you were not too disruptive or making a roar ? anyway she did not stay a long time !
But why was her presence necessary since there were some male coaches to supervise you and it would have been enough to keep you quiet ?
I am not convinced that it was necessary to have you stripped completely and waiting naked your turn to be examined in front of each other but it might be inspired by military methods for physicals of young men as it was sometimes in the past.
Sometimes sports physicals at schools were managed a little like group exams in the army and also physicals for summer camps.

You said that you don't know if girls were given physicals the same way in schools, I doubt very much that they were completely naked like you in group.

Since: Nov 10

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#8 Jan 18, 2011
I think Jean-rene is right about the no consideration of male nudity in Russian and East European institutions. I have seen pictures of young male military inductees standing naked in front of female clerks at their desks during their physicals.
I have aslo read accounts of boys in boarding schools in these countries where the staff are mostly female, with female teachers regularly monitoring the boys in the showers, even of teen age. But Idon't think these instances are only confined to Russia, some institutions in America also allow female staff to monitor boys in the showers, as in some juvenile detention centres. It is also common in many male prisons in America for female guards to do the same and monitor male prisoners while they are showering.
jean-rene from france

Paris, France

#9 Jan 18, 2011
some more comments about the first "didaf "message :

I think that he is right when he says " in Russia (lot of pics of dozen young men naked in front of female doctors AND female soldiers) as well as in the other ex ussr countries. Since the majority of the medics are female and boys are always checked up in the nude at one time or the other during the induction process, it seems that they do not care with female officers being present".

In the united States, it seems to me that it happened sometimes also that women were present but not always.I have read some messages with relations of physicals where young men were exposed to the view of some women but also others where there was no women at all.

Normally as he said there is now in this country a new regulation for the process of induction for new recruits and it has been decided that non medical female persons should not be present anymore but I don't know if it is really applied in allthe US military centers for medical exams.

As regards Germany where thre is still a mandatory military service,I know that the physicals are mostly performed by women doctors but the draftees were examined one by one,never in group.
Even if a female is assisting the doctor,I am not totally convinced that it is really a traumatizing experience, more over if she was a nurse which could be possible since she wears a lab coat

I recognize that it is certainly very embarrassing for some young men to be examined in front of two women but it is not like in Russia with group exams.

It is true also that female volonteers are advantaged because they are always examined by female persons at least now because it was certainly not always true!

As regards Netherlands,I am less convinced that all what is said is true. I believe without objection that all young recruits were stripped naked, may be for a long time, but "all the day" can be too much incredible ; I doubt that they had to stay naked during psychological tests except for those who wanted to join special forces, and it seems to me ridiculous to say that they had to go and eat in the refectory being still naked while the service was made by young girls of their age.It is too much a CFMN situation!

Anyway, I don't believe that it is the common rule for all young recruits, especially now.

If there is a relation of a dutch man in a forum (what is the title of this forum?) who relates that, it is not enough to be considered to be always true. And we dont know the year of this physical ?

And if "didaf" knows an other dutchman who confirmed that relation, he said that it was not now, it was in the early 90's and I presume that he was a draftee, not a volonteer?

it is dificult to know if all physicals were performed mlike that in the 90's, there could be differences according to the locations of the medical military centers.

But even if I doubt about the truth of some stories, I am sure that the double standard is existing in almost all countries where women can join the army, I presume that they are very seldom treated so bas as young men as regards the respect of privacy and modesty.

It is not surprising because the army has always considered that the modesty was not a manhood value to encourage.

Since: Aug 10

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#10 Jan 22, 2011
Jean-Rene,
It's difficult to explain the presence of the female vice-principal except to tell you that she could go anywhere in the school she wanted at anytime and did.
The school I went to was a type of privately run reform school which was attended by students who had committed certain types of crimes that were not bad enough to be incarcerated in a prison. Some examples of students you would NOT find at that school would be someone who had committed murder or rape or someone who had committed a major robbery. Some examples of students you WOULD find at that school would be someone who had stolen a car but then parked it completely unharmed, someone who had gone along for the ride in a robbery but did not participate in the robbery, someone who had purchased marijuana from an undercover cop, public drunkeness, in other words, lighter crimes. There were some who had been arrested for more serious crimes but even those crimes were still not serious enough for them to be incarcerated in a prison. The ones who had committed more serious crimes than others at the school were required to stay in a dormitory. The more serious crimes often involved physical abuse and generally violent behavior or, in a few cases, prostitution. Another reason a student would be required to stay in the dormitory would be if their grade average fell below a B for an entire semester. Except for one small part of my time there, I was allowed to go home after school each day and sleep there. Some of the students were not allowed to leave the school grounds and were made to stay in the dormitory each night.
I told you all this to help you to better understand why the vice principal went all over the school. It was not a normal school. She saw the male students naked other times before she saw them naked while taking their physicals. She really didn't come into the areas where the male students were naked very much, only ocassionally. I never asked why she was there and I don't think anyone else did either. The school's attendance was about 70% male and 30% female.
In case you're curious about the vice principal's interest in seeing us naked, she never seemed to be interested in that. Our nudity never seemed to affect her at all. She seemed oblivioius to it, actually.

Since: Nov 10

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#11 Jan 22, 2011
Older Jock, was the vice-principal the only female who saw the boys naked? Were there other female teachers or staff who would have seen the boys like that in some situations? What about the boys in the dormotories, did they have any female staff monitoring them?
I know that even today there are juvenile detention centres with female staff who even monitor the boys during showers and other activities. There was a recent case about this in court when the boys in one such institution protested about this situation. I don't know if I still can find the link to post it here.

Since: Aug 10

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#12 Jan 22, 2011
Sir Arthur wrote:
Older Jock, was the vice-principal the only female who saw the boys naked? Were there other female teachers or staff who would have seen the boys like that in some situations? What about the boys in the dormotories, did they have any female staff monitoring them?
I know that even today there are juvenile detention centres with female staff who even monitor the boys during showers and other activities. There was a recent case about this in court when the boys in one such institution protested about this situation. I don't know if I still can find the link to post it here.
Sir Arthur,
In the school itself the only other female who saw us naked other than the female vice principal was her "assistant of the day" who was always one of the female students but could have been one of the male students except that the male students never wanted to do it. It was a volunteer type of position. As I recall, there were 4 times when a female "assistant of the day" saw at least one of the male students naked. Three of those times, to my recollection it was the same female and those three times she would have seen several of us naked at the same time.
The male students swam naked but not in front of females with the exception of the female vice principal who rarely came into the nautatorium when we were in the pool. I do not personally recall the female "assistant of the day" coming into the nautatorium when the male students were in the pool but another guy told me that during his PE class a female "assistant of the day" came into the nautatorium while he and his PE classmates were naked in the pool.
In the dormitory there were guards of both genders and female monitors. Those guards and monitors saw the male students naked on a daily basis. The female dormitory residents were kept apart in a completely different area from the male residents.

Since: Nov 10

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#13 Jan 22, 2011
Older Jock, I think in anothher post you said that corporal punishment was freely used at the scool, and this is understandable when one considers that it was some sort of penal institution for errant boys, like a remand home really, so discipline had to be strict.
What kind of corporal punishment was used, and how was it carried out? Did teachers,including female ones, spank the boys in class too, or was it just the principal and his female assistant who spanked the boys?
I imagine with the boys sent there by the courts who slept in the dormitories the discipline would have been more strict with more frequent spankings.
And one last question, what were the ages of the boys who were committed there?

Since: Aug 10

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#14 Jan 22, 2011
Sir Arthur,
The punishments were usually given with a long wooden paddle that was called "the board". The boys only had one female teacher and that was the vice principal. All of the other teachers for boys were male teachers. The female teachers taught the female students. No male teachers taught the female students as far as I know.
When ever there was punishment to be given to one of the male students, either the principal (male) or one of the male teachers would give the punishment. I do remember on one ocassion the vice principal giving a paddling to one of the male students. As far as I know, that only happened once.
Because the school or, better stated, our section of the school was all male, very little respect was given by those in authority for protecting the modesty of the male students. This is probably difficult for some readers to believe but, an example of this lack of privacy and modesty protection is whenever physical punishments were given, they would happen in front of the remainder of the class of male students. The male student being punished would be required to either strip completely naked or drop his pants down around his ankles. Yes, I am saying that he would be either completely naked or naked from the waist down. The paddling would then be given to his bare buttocks.
The principal always had the male student to be punished strip completely naked as did a couple of the other teachers, one of whom was the head coach. A friend of mine who was at this school with me years ago recently had a conversation with me during which we discussed the possible reason why the principal had us strip completely naked for punishment. I never knew why. My friend's theory that I will share with you here made complete sense to me. His theory as to the reason why the principal had us strip naked for punishment was because the principal hated our wearing shirts with perspiration spots on them. Because the paddling would cause the student to sweat and cause perpiration spots, the principal would have the student remove the shirt to avoid the possibility of those perspiration spots. But, then I asked "What about the pants and underwear." My friend answered, in his opinion, "The principal was anal and probably couldn't stand the thought of our possibly being sweaty under our clothes and starting to smell so he had us strip to avoid that." Then he asked me "Don't you remember how he always had us dry off with either a towel or kleenex after he finished beating us?" Remembering the principal, my friend's theories made complete sense and seemed right. I also think that part of the reason we were made to strip was to humiliate us even more.
The discipline in the dormitory was very strict. Any infraction of the dormitory rules was met with severe punishment which could include the naked student lying on his stomach while having his hands and feet teathered with buckle straps to the four corners of his bed. Then his buttocks would be slapped hard intermittantly several times with a paddle over the span of about 30 minutes while the other students were made to watch. The idea of making an example out of the offender was the reason the other students were required to watch.

Since: Aug 10

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#15 Jan 22, 2011
I forgot to answer one question you asked about the ages of the male students. The age range for the students both male and female was approximately 15 to 18 years of age, inclusive. I was 15 years old when I went there and had recently turned 19 when I left the school permanently.
jean-rene from france

Paris, France

#16 Jan 24, 2011
to come back to the subject of our discussion, I want to tell you that there is a book which has been recently written by a german guy about the draft physicals in front of women, it is a book with many relations which was written to denouce the process of the examination of draftees in Germany until today.
if you are interested, you will find the link by typing "musterung " in germany

Since: Aug 10

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#17 Jan 28, 2011
I believe that the males who feel as though they have been traumatized by being put in a position where females saw them naked had some type of psychological problem prior to their being seen naked by the females.
My best guess is that these males had a feminine influence in their lives that was much too strong. It is my understanding that males have to be taught to be shy about nudity. Females, on the other hand, are born with the inclination to be shy about nudity. In my personal experience, in my childhood and adolescent years, I was seen naked by both of my sisters and my mom numerous times. I was also seen naked once by my aunt and my female cousin when I was an adolescent. In my 20's, I frequented a nude beach where many females saw me naked. I was a swimmer years ago when I was in school. In swimming competitions we wore small bathing suits that left little to the imagination. At different times in my life I've gone through physical examinations during which female nurses and doctors were present as well as non-medical personel.
During these experiences and others, I never felt any humiliation from females seeing me naked. I was never taught to think that way. And, once again, in my opinion, it is absolutely necessary for a male to be taught to think this way because males do not have this way of thinking naturally.
Jean-Rene: I read some of the links pertaining to musterung to one of my sons who is in his 30's. His reaction was disbelief and he said "What a bunch of pussies! What's wrong with them?"
The only reason a normal male should feel the need to cover his nudity in front of a female is if the female would possibly be offended by the males nudity. The covering of the male body would be to protect the female from being offended. It should not be because the male is shy about his nudity. The exceptions to this would be if the male has some type of mental/psychological problem or if he is trying to hide a bad scar or some other type of physical deformity. A male could be ashamed of his body for any of several reasons and because of this shame, doesn't want to show his body to anyone. That is understandable. But a normal physically fit male should not have any problems with a female seeing him naked as long as the female is not offended by the nudity.

Since: Oct 10

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#18 Jan 29, 2011
to older jock :

the problem is not nudity , the probleme is FORCED nudity

an example : maybe you like drink a beer from time to time but if I force you to drink a beer you will not enjoy it ...
please , tell me you understand the difference !

Since: Aug 10

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#19 Jan 29, 2011
didaf,
Yes, I certainly understand the difference. Years ago, the word "forced" never came to my mind when a female saw me naked in a situation when I had no choice but for her to see me naked. I realize now that in actuality I was forced to be naked but I didn't think of it that way then.
If I thought of it at all, the way I thought of each situation varied with the circumstances. A couple of examples would be my high school vice principal and the female attendants in the dormitory who were seeing us naked because that was part of their jobs and that is the way I thought of them.
It is necessary to understand that society was different back then. Adolescents did not question authority. If they did question authority and rebel against it, they might end up in a reform school like the one I was in. And in the one I went to, you absolutely did not question authority. You may be asking what could they do to you there if you did question authority or rebel against it? Back then, plenty could be done that would scare the you know what right out of you. In the oldest section of the high school building complex which was built in the 1800's, there was a room with a large wooden door with large metal braces they called "isolation". I did not like to go into that part of the complex. I saw the inside of that room once and it gave me the "creeps". When a friend of mine at the school was 18 years old, he got put in there one time for about 24 hours because he tried to hit one of the guards in the dormitory. I asked him why he tried to hit the guard and he told me "It was because of something he did." I asked him what it was the guard did but my friend wouldn't tell me what it was. He said several hours after he had the incident with the guard they took him to the "isolation" room and they stripped him naked, and while three of the guards held him, he was injected with a drug by the doctor who gave us our yearly physicals. He said he was then put in the "isolation" room and layed face down on a bench that was bolted to the floor. His hands and feet were tethered to the corners of the bench.(This is something they also did in the dormitory. There were tether straps at the four corners of each of the beds in the dormitory. I know this because for a while I stayed in the dormitory and was tied face down on a bed by these straps and given an injection. I'll tell more about that another time.) My friend continued to tell me that one of the guards would come in intermittently and give him some swats while he lay on the table. He said he was not sure how frequently this happened but he thought it was about every two hours. He told me that when they brought him out he was shaking. He said they put him in an old elevator and took him back to the dormitory.
I was curious to know how he went to the bathroom when he was on the table in "isolation". He told me there was a hole in the middle of the table where his genitals went through and there was a bucket directly under the hole. He told me he didn't feel like he had to defecate until the last part of the time in the "isolation" room and he just held it until he got out. I also asked my friend what would keep that guard from doing what ever it was he didn't like again. He answered "Nothing. He did do it again." I then asked him again what it was the guard did and a "stiffness" came over my friend and he turned away without answering my question.
Back in those days, a child or adolescent being forced to do things was just part of the program. If authority was questioned, there was a penalty to pay, sometimes a severe penalty.
jean-rene from france

Longjumeau, France

#20 Jan 31, 2011
Older jock : I am rather thinkink like you except may be when women are trying to abuse of the situation by using their power on male tennagers or young men ( it is different with men who are more mature and normally are not so impressed by exposing their body to women)to humiliate them, but normally, it is not the case.

In draft physicals as those who are related in Germany, I presume that all the process of the examination was the same when it was a male doctor who performed the examination and when it was a woman.
I notice also that the german draftees were examined alone one by one in front only of the doctor assisted by a secretary.
So It seems to me that it could habe been worst and that it was worst sometimers in the past and that some male persons who are now much complaining are certainly too young to have known some situations of nakedness in group more frequent in the past and that they are too much paranoiac about nudity in front of women in medical situations.

Nevertheless, I recognize that it would have been more fair and appropriate if there was no exposure of young men naked to the view of the secretary if she was not a medical person.
One curtain or a partition would habe been enough for that during the intimate part of the examination, or at least the doctor could have stand between the young man and the secretary in order to avoid her to have a good sight on the naked bodies of the draftees or the secretary could have been instructed before by the doctor to look away when it was time for the more undressed and embarrassing part of the examination.

But of course, the doctors whenever was their gender did not mind to pritect the modesty of the german draftees.
It is not surprising, it was like that in all the armies in fact.

Anyway, it was not so much a big deal as it was certainly very quick.

I have heard of draft physicals in the past who were much more embarrassing.
So it is difficult for me to believe that it was really so a traumatic experience for a german young man and that he was so mortified that he stayed traumatized by that examination for a long time.

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