'The War Is Not Over'

[jo jo]

mooooohh...

[Karma is a_______]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>
George H. W. Bush wasn't shot down???
sumthin don't add up
Was there an experience that changed your life?
George H.W. Bush: I think the major event that shaped my life was being a Naval aviator. I got my commission and wings at 18 years old, and then I went into combat at 19. And I think, as I look back on it, that whole experience probably shaped my life more than any incident, or any event. Although I remember when I was shot down in that war. I remember how terrified I was. And it made me feel close to my family, and to God, and to life, and I was scared.
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/bus0i...

Crusty, you need to follow the whole tread. someone made a statement about George H.W. Bush was shot down by the Nazis while flying his P-51. I merely pointed out the Bush was shot down by the Japanese while flying a carrier based Avenger.

Arbiteur in his quest to prove me wrong, made the statement that Bush ditched his plane in the ocean (not exactly shot down)

then later he change his story and said that I was dissing George H W Bush. Not sure how he came to that conclusion, or what logic he used. I've come to the conclusion that arbiteur is incapable of logical thought, constantly contradicts himself and changes his position. He has absolutely no knowledge of many of the subjects he is posting about. On numerous occasions he has taken a completely opposite position of what I say, only to come back the next day and parrot what I had said the day before. I'm guessing because he did his research, then he'll accuse me of changing my position. He'll usually shut up when I retrieve his old posts to refresh his memory

[Provocateur]

American Terrorists
The word terrorist is so loaded with negative connotations that many Americans have used it very loosely to tar their enemies, e.g.:
Anyone who criticises the president.
Anyone who harms an American, civilian or soldier.
Anyone who disagrees with the Neocon political philosophy.
Anyone who offered themselves as a human shield to protect brown-skinned people in Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq.
Anyone who opposes the war in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Anyone who publicly announces the government ought to regulate corporate polluters.
Anyone who joins a demonstration to protest government or corporate actions.
Anyone who burns a flag.
Anyone who believes abortion should be the decision of the mother.
Homosexuals.
Anyone who teaches evolution instead of creationism.
Anyone who does not give lip service to a belief in god.
Historian’s Definition
Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh have made such effective use of the terrorist smear tactic, that I doubt people in general will be much interested in using the term terrorist precisely. However, it does have a clear meaning.
Terrorism : killing civilians with the intent of changing their political affiliation.
~ Caleb Carr (born: 1955-08-02 age: 54), military historian
Any action constitutes terrorism if it is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a Government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.
~ Kofi Annan (born: 1938-04-08 age: 71) secretary general of the United Nations
Thus terrorism includes:
bombing civilians.
shooting civilians.
killing civilians by flying aircraft into buildings.
killing civilians with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.
Terrorism does not include:
bombing soldiers.
shooting soldiers.
killing soldiers by flying aircraft into buildings.
killing soldiers with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.
expressing unpopular opinions.
Criticising government leaders.
protesting.
Refusing to serve in the military.
Killing your mother to get an early inheritance.
Negligent contaminating lettuce with E. Coli bacteria.
Not all evil deeds are terrorism. Note that in determining what constitutes terrorism, it does not matter who does the killing. What matters is who is killed. In particular, when soldiers or civilians kill soldiers, it is not terrorism, no matter what means they use. That is just ordinary warfare. When soldiers kill civilians it is terrorism, no matter what means they use.
So Are the Americans In Iraq Terrorists?
Americans have killed over 100,000 civilians, mostly children in Iraq. This is the only peer-reviewed scientific statistic of the war. Politicians have denied it, but the figure still stands. As science, it cannot be easily dismissed.
That makes them terrorists, whether you approve of that action or not. This makes the American soldiers in Iraq international war criminals, and also criminals under American law. Had Hitler won WWII, prosecuting he Nazis would have been much delayed. Similarly, since America is so militarily powerful, it will be hard effect mass prosecution. Only a few lesser lights who stray outside the protection of the USA will be nailed to start. Germany has already started prosecuting. Consider that some Nazis were not prosecuted until they were in their 90s. The political balance of power could change substantially over the next 70 years. American involved in the terrorism cannot count on perpetual protection.

[crusty]

Republicans Wiretap wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, when they get that DNA information down pat, they can figure out who is going to get Alzheimer's and need a nursing home stint, and they can just execute them with a lethal injection, save the taxpayers' megabucks.
Maybe just kill everyone who is going to live to be over 73, save some money there, Social Security payments, Medicaid costs.
They could kill everyone who is going to get all sorts of expensive diseases before they get them, when they get that DNA down pat.
crusty, you are all for saving money, aren't you? All Republicans want to save money. Killing the folks that are going to need nursing home care, that would save a lot. Don't get all liberal now on me, crusty. Republicans are all about making hard decisions, not letting sentimentality get in the way of saving money.

that probably is what the one repub who voted for it, was thinking

wonder what the 39 dems who voted against it were thinkin

[crusty]

Provocateur wrote:

American Terrorists
The word terrorist is so loaded with negative connotations that many Americans have used it very loosely to tar their enemies, e.g.:
Anyone who criticises the president.
Anyone who harms an American, civilian or soldier.
Anyone who disagrees with the Neocon political philosophy.
Anyone who offered themselves as a human shield to protect brown-skinned people in Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq.
Anyone who opposes the war in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Anyone who publicly announces the government ought to regulate corporate polluters.
Anyone who joins a demonstration to protest government or corporate actions.
Anyone who burns a flag.

Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh have made such effective use of the terrorist smear tactic, that I doubt people in general will be much interested in using the term terrorist precisely. However, it does have a clear meaning.
Terrorism : killing civilians with the intent of changing their political affiliation.
~ Caleb Carr (born: 1955-08-02 age: 54), military historian
Any action constitutes terrorism if it is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a Government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.
~ Kofi Annan (born: 1938-04-08 age: 71) secretary general of the United Nations
Thus terrorism includes:
bombing civilians.
shooting civilians.
killing civilians by flying aircraft into buildings.
killing civilians with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.
Terrorism does not include:
bombing soldiers.
shooting soldiers.
killing soldiers by flying aircraft into buildings.
killing soldiers with poison gas or other banned weapons such as napalm, white phosphorus, land mines and cluster bombs.
expressing unpopular opinions.
Criticising government leaders.
protesting.
Refusing to serve in the military.
Killing your mother to get an early inheritance.
Negligent contaminating lettuce with E. Coli bacteria.
Not all evil deeds are terrorism. Note that in determining what constitutes terrorism, it does not matter who does the killing. What matters is who is killed. In particular, when soldiers or civilians kill soldiers, it is not terrorism, no matter what means they use. That is just ordinary warfare. When soldiers kill civilians it is terrorism, no matter what means they use.
So Are the Americans In Iraq Terrorists?
Americans have killed over 100,000 civilians, mostly children in Iraq. This is the only peer-reviewed scientific statistic of the war. Politicians have denied it, but the figure still stands. As science, it cannot be easily dismissed.
That makes them terrorists, whether you approve of that action or not. This makes the American soldiers in Iraq international war criminals, and also criminals under American law. Had Hitler won WWII, prosecuting he Nazis would have been much delayed. Similarly, since America is so militarily powerful, it will be hard effect mass prosecution. Only a few lesser lights who stray outside the protection of the USA will be nailed to start. Germany has already started prosecuting. Consider that some Nazis were not prosecuted until they were in their 90s. The political balance of power could change substantially over the next 70 years. American involved in the terrorism cannot count on perpetual protection.

only 100 000...!?!?
madeline and the UN would hardly consider that
"worth it"
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
so really when u think about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

[Qwerty is a monkey]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>But the deeper and more important question is why do the Arabs hate America more than England?
I suppose that is a deeply important question....especially to 7/7 victims and their families

7/7 was a minor incident and it has been Americanised because as with all things, what ever you do the English poofters do as well.

The IRA campaign in England claimed many more lives than any Muslim attack. Yet the English poofters dont date those bombings like that. A terrible act yes, but they were English Muslims meaning born in England. And they werent Arabs, they were Pakistani as are most Muslims through out the UK and Ireland. Pakistan it must not be forgotten is home to radicalists including the Taliban now and Al Qaeda.

And just so ya know, i didnt support the IRA's methods, but i did support their cause.

[Qwerty is a monkey]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>look I know u euros like to blame us for everything but I thought it was your french buds...after the sinai crisis
The Sinai Crisis
In the fall of 1956, France agreed to provide Israel with an 18 MWt research reactor. However, the onset of the Suez Crisis a few weeks later changed the situation dramatically. Following Egypt's closure of the Suez Canal in July, France and Britain had agreed with Israel that the latter should provoke a war with Egypt to provide the European nations with the pretext to send in their troops as peacekeepers to occupy and reopen the canal zone. In the wake of the Suez Crisis, the Soviet Union made a thinly veiled threat against the three nations. This episode not only enhanced the Israeli view that an independent nuclear capability was needed to prevent reliance on potentially unreliable allies, but also led to a sense of debt among French leaders that they had failed to fulfill commitments made to a partner. French premier Guy Mollet is even quoted as saying privately that France "owed" the bomb to Israel.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/S...
then of course u guys supplied them with all kinds of plutonium and heavy water

Nope thats just another thing thats in your head, and makes us Euros think you have all been indocrtinated under the US flag to support your government at all costs. In war more than anything else.

We dont blame you for everything. So get that out your head right now. You honestly think we see justification for 9/11 despite your interference and harrasment in the Middle East??? NO!!! Jeez! We only expect you to recognise you f*cked up in a major way when you elected Bush and supported a pointless war in Iraq. Few people didnt support the decision to invade Afghanistan as that was the source of the problem. But Bush turned his back on the source of the problem to focus on a completely innocent and seperate country that would not tolerate the likes of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Islam in my opinion is not a nice religion, but part of me says that some of these countries like Iraq need a hard bastard or dictator like Saddam to keep the place under control. His government had senior politicians who were Christians, women and Muslims of both denominations. There was no sectarianism and Saddam would have made a bid for peace between himself and the West if sanctions were lifted. He had no WMD and please dont tell me about the Kurds. Rumsfeld was shaking his hand while all that crap was going on.

[Qwerty is a monkey]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>then there's the swiss packin more heat than any of us yet there crime rate is lo lo lo
hmmm
wouldn't mind seeing tove lettting off with a machine gun

The Swiss dont buy guns like you. All Swiss men must do National Services and are given a gun in the army to keep for life in case of war. The Swiss are weird bastards, their all into this green hippy crap, yet they are the most militaristic nation in Europe. During WW2 they shot down bothe Allied and Axis planes. Today they have just about every bridge in the country wired up with explosives incase the Germans want to invade.

The Swiss are nothing like you and have completely different values, morals and views on world politics and climate change.

[Qwerty is a monkey]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>
Above all when and how did the U-hoo Nited States of Amerwica becum so flawless and perfect in every way?
when??? I think it happened right after me and Chaz were born
I'm sorry we responded to 911 with a mistaken attack on Iraq
there
feel better
when have I ever said we were perfect,.. as a matter of fact I've said here a few times ..we suck
just not as bad as most of the rest of the world(switzerland is tops, guys get machine guns and dirty banking is toatlly acceptable, I mean what could be better than that?)

My God! the first element of humour since ABs lost his!!! Well done!

Every country sucks in one way or another. Some in many different ways. Yes you did f*ck up when you invaded Iraq, but i know you of all people still support the decision to have that war, and the man who made it.

The Swiss are a weird bunch as i have said. But they dont go around innitiating wars like the rest of us, or supporting them for that matter.

[Qwerty is a monkey]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>we've kept cuba down trodden???
their choice ....well fidels anyway
how much business does Ireland do with cuba
maine does some
A few weeks ago, it was Germany and Italy.
This month, Cuba.
Maine businesses, working with state officials, are pushing hard to generate more international trade.
This kind of beyond-the-border thinking is exactly what the state and its economy need. The strategy should not only be employed but expanded.
Maine is one of six states sending a trade delegation to Havana to compete for potentially lucrative agricultural contracts. A dozen representatives of Maine agriculture, education and government are making the trip.
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/dec04/01e9.h...

And how long have these 6 States had business interest in Cuba? Is it a recent thing or has it always been so through the Cold War era and into the 90s and early 2000's?

[arbitrageur]

Qwerty is a monkey wrote:

<quoted text>
Im not an English poofter, i come from another little Island accross the Irish sea called.... You guessed it! Ireland lol
Now let me think about this anyway. A second horrific World War had just come to an end. We discover the Nazi bastards killed 6 million Jews who aint welcome anywhere, not the UK, not Ireland, not the US, not France, and certainly not Germany. But as the victors of this war we find ourselves feeling sympathy after the Soviets crushed Hitler and we move in to see the carnage for ourselves. What do we do, what do we do??? Give the Zionists what they want? Land which is their spiritual home or let them suffer as nomads moving from country to country hiding like frightened animals unable to predict the future if they are indeed given the land they want?
The English poofters dont do much right, but at that point in time you kinda understand the decision to give the Jews the small portion of land where they wanted it and only take away a tiny fraction of what belonged to Palestine. But then who could have predicted they would wage war to occupy the whole of Palestine?
But the deeper and more important question is why do the Arabs hate America more than England? Consider yourself a scientist now. Go away and conduct proper unbiased research with a theory and see how it works out. Forget your a Yank, you have no nation or loyalties. Now go conduct your research and an explanation might just appear!

You hate women, now you have nothing good to say about Jews?

Let me see, don't you hate old people, too?

[arbitrageur]

crusty wrote:

<quoted text>But the deeper and more important question is why do the Arabs hate America more than England?
I suppose that is a deeply important question....especially to 7/7 victims and their families

Hillary is making it worse, too, in a new era of diplomacy, and green tea parties.

[arbitrageur]

Karma is a_______ wrote:

<quoted text>
Once again you are confusing the GBI test results with that of the SM-3. they are two different systems. The missiles in Alaska are GBI's. This is the missile system Bush wanted to deploy to Poland and Czech republic, nothing more. President Obama cancelled this deployment in favor of the SM-3
good job of obfusification though. You had been claiming that the GBI tests were successful and not classified, however in reality you were posting results of the SM-3.
The GBI are completely unnecessary and violate a treaty we signed and that was ratified by the Senate, thereby making it the law of the land

You lie again.

I posted both. But thanks. Both midcourse systems had successes and failures. Ground based seemed to have more testing, but that was just from the material I presented. Neither were classified, thus your statements about classification and utter failure are false.

I also researched the history of the SM-3, which was quite enlightening, especially if you go back quite a ways.

I think we've had this discussion before, perhaps over a year ago.

You seemed to work for Raytheon, and seem to have a vested interest in the SM-3.

Not sure whether you used to be Marine for Impeachment, or not.

[arbitrageur]

Karma is a_______ wrote:

<quoted text>
dude, here's your post
"arbitrageur wrote:
<quoted text>
Your description is extremely short, like your temper.
Torpedo Squadron (VT-51) and 58 missions, one of which flying for miles with an engine on fire, before ditching (ditching not exactly shot down??)
Throughout 1944, he had flown 58 combat missions for which he received the Distinguished Flying Cross, three Air Medals, and the Presidential Unit Citation awarded San Jacinto.
You should have a little more respect for your Navy pilots.
After all, the Marines are only part of the Navy."

(1) see that (ditching not exactly shot down??) line. Now here you are saying you never said George H. W. Bush wasn't shot down.
and how is my relating what really happened to the poster who claimed Ens Bush was shot down by the Nazis while flying his P-51??

(2) You're an idiot to equate me stating the facts with dissing Ens Bush. I'm guessing facts are anthema to you.

(3) Just like how you demonstrated your lack of knowledge on missile defense, your lack of reading comprehension and history (other than what you find on wiki) is making an appearence.
and please don't try to presume you know how old I am. And yes I am somewhat of an military expert.....from experience and reading

(1) Your interpretation, perhaps, but I was commenting on your short statement regarding GHWBush in a conversation concerning heros, Kennedy versus Bush. "Shot down" has a different connotation than "engine fire" and "ditching", but you knew that. That's pretty much all you said other than he wasn't flying a P-51, which is not in question.

I did think "VT-51" was funny, though, but I see humour in different places than you do.

Do you personally know anyone who had ever "ditched"?

(2) Thanks for the insult, again. Your facts were not complete, and simply misleading, like many of your posts. Sometimes this is called bias, and that is apparent, even in this case.

It's a problem, here, bucko. Reason I called you on it.

(3) Your rebuttals have included lies and misrepresentations.
That is what really has been demonstrated. I have been exceedingly clear, and detailed, which you haven't specifically addressed.

Again, you know exactly what I called you on. A reminder, thus far:

(1) Your statements about classified material which was entirely false.
(2) Your statements about "failed" systems which was grossly misleading.
(3) Your lack of historical context with your favorite missile system.
(4) Your failure to acknowledge the change of perceived threat, not failure, in the administration's change of venue vis a vis missile systems implementation.

Did I get everything?

[arbitrageur]

White Collar Crime wrote:

<quoted text>
COMPREHENSIVE ANTITERRORISM ACT OF 1995
http://tinyurl.com/ys56o4
Congressional Record: April 18, 1996 (House)- Pages H3605-H3618 Government Printing Office's Online Records: DOCID:cr18ap96-43
Conference Report on s. 735, Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996
Dan Burton (R-Ind): If the Government of the United States can through, quote-unquote, good faith tap our phones and intrude into our lives, they violate our constitutional liberties, and that is something that we should not tolerate, and that is in section 305 and section 307. The FBI can gain access to individual phone billing records without a subpoena or a court order. Once again I believe that infringes upon our constitutional rights and liberties, and while we are trying to deal with terrorism, and we should, we should not violate our constitutional rights and liberties, and I believe this bill in its present form does. And that is why I think the Barr amendment is absolutely essential if we are going to pass something that will really deal with terrorism crime, but protect the liberties that we fought so hard for in the Revolutionary War.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdo...

I'm guessing you are firmly against warrantless wiretapping.

[arbitrageur]

Karma is a_______ wrote:

<quoted text>
Crusty, you need to follow the whole tread. someone made a statement about George H.W. Bush was shot down by the Nazis while flying his P-51. I merely pointed out the Bush was shot down by the Japanese while flying a carrier based Avenger.
Arbiteur in his quest to prove me wrong, made the statement that Bush ditched his plane in the ocean (not exactly shot down)
then later he change his story and said that I was dissing George H W Bush. Not sure how he came to that conclusion, or what logic he used. I've come to the conclusion that arbiteur is incapable of logical thought, constantly contradicts himself and changes his position. He has absolutely no knowledge of many of the subjects he is posting about. On numerous occasions he has taken a completely opposite position of what I say, only to come back the next day and parrot what I had said the day before. I'm guessing because he did his research, then he'll accuse me of changing my position. He'll usually shut up when I retrieve his old posts to refresh his memory

I wish you could be detailed, rather then exude generalities and lies. Do you have any specifics you'd like to share?

Helps debate, rather than inhibits it.

[mook]

LOL....blacks always beatin on woman....why is that?....they don't like queers either....why is that?....muscum blood?

A prominent Columbia architecture professor punched a female university employee in the face at a Harlem bar during a heated argument about race relations, cops said yesterday.

Police busted Lionel McIntyre, 59, for assault yesterday after his bruised victim, Camille Davis, filed charges.

McIntyre and Davis, who works as a production manager in the school's theater department, are both regulars at Toast, a popular university bar on Broadway and 125th Street, sources said.

The professor, who is black, had been engaged in a fiery discussion about "white privilege" with Davis, who is white, and another male regular, who is also white, Friday night at 10:30 when fists started flying, patrons said.


LIONEL McINTYRE "Unfortunate event."

see more videos McIntyre, who is known as "Mac" at the bar, shoved Davis, and when the other patron and a bar employee tried to break it up, the prof slugged Davis in the face, witnesses said.

"The punch was so loud, the kitchen workers in the back heard it over all the noise," bar back Richie Velez, 28, told The Post. "I was on my way over when he punched Camille and she fell on top of me."

The other patron involved in the dispute said McIntyre then took a swing at him after he yelled, "You don't hit a woman!"

[White Collar Crime]

arbitrageur wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm guessing you are firmly against warrantless wiretapping.

Only for Terrorist with court order.

AUDIO SURVEILLANCE AND COUNTERMEASURES
http://tinyurl.com/bh7gx
http://martykaiser.com/report~1.htm

"ENEMY OF THE STATE"
http://tinyurl.com/2gxagc
http://martykaiser.com/enemy.htm

Marty Kaiser
http://tinyurl.com/e8tmr
http://martykaiser.com/index.htm

[Qwerty is a monkey]

arbitrageur wrote:

<quoted text>
You hate women, now you have nothing good to say about Jews?
Let me see, don't you hate old people, too?

No i dont hate women, thats just something you have invented in you little head of yours. If i call a man a bastard i will damn well call a woman a bitch. Thats the equality you fought for so like it or lump it. I give women no special treatment.

Dont think i have said their is nothing good to say about the Jews. I dont care about the Jews, its Israel that gets on my nerves and Israel is a secular nation. Supposedly.

Old bastards are a danger on the road. They hold up traffic by driving slower than i can walk. They have been responsible for all three fatal accidents in my town in the last 3 or 4 years and because they drive so slow they cause frustration. One old lady caused a crash because she suddendly slammed on the breaks coming out a junction when their was no traffic coming the other way. Two cars behind had clear visibility, but both smaked into her and each other. Besides they get free bus passes, and rail travel. So if they are unfit to drive why not encourage them to give up their cars leading to less congestion on the roads and fewer greenhouse gas emissions?

Despite the number of accidents they are involved in they still get the cheapest insurance. Unfair and unacceptable to road users like me who have only had once accident in my life back when i was a teenager. And that accident was a tiny little bump into another car that left no damage to either car involved.

[White Collar Crime]

mook wrote:

LOL....blacks always beatin on woman....why is that?....they don't like queers either....why is that?....muscum blood?
A prominent Columbia architecture professor punched a female university employee in the face at a Harlem bar during a heated argument about race relations, cops said yesterday.
Police busted Lionel McIntyre, 59, for assault yesterday after his bruised victim, Camille Davis, filed charges.
McIntyre and Davis, who works as a production manager in the school's theater department, are both regulars at Toast, a popular university bar on Broadway and 125th Street, sources said.
The professor, who is black, had been engaged in a fiery discussion about "white privilege" with Davis, who is white, and another male regular, who is also white, Friday night at 10:30 when fists started flying, patrons said.
LIONEL McINTYRE "Unfortunate event."
see more videos McIntyre, who is known as "Mac" at the bar, shoved Davis, and when the other patron and a bar employee tried to break it up, the prof slugged Davis in the face, witnesses said.
"The punch was so loud, the kitchen workers in the back heard it over all the noise," bar back Richie Velez, 28, told The Post. "I was on my way over when he punched Camille and she fell on top of me."
The other patron involved in the dispute said McIntyre then took a swing at him after he yelled, "You don't hit a woman!"

Farrakhan exposes all the Bush neo-con lies video
http://www.finalcall.com/pressconference/