Aussie restlessness echoes in U.S.

[Bob]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>

We have done enough bickering about each other. Let us get back to our main discussion.
MUQ

Aussie restlessness echoes in U.S.?
Or trying to twist the bible into the quran

[MUQ]

To: Madam Dee

Episode-12 “Death of Uncle and Wife”(The year of Sorrow)

We have taken a “Long Detour” to verify the sources of Quran and its comparison with Biblical books. This was needed, to establish the credentials of prophet and his book.

We left the story when the prophet had just emerged from a three-year social boycott. That covers upto tenth year of his prophetic life.

In 11th year of his mission, both his uncle and dear wife KHADEEJAH died within a span of few days. The prophet used to refer to that year as “Year of Sorrow”.

Death of his uncle, removed his personal protection, which his uncle’s stature provided him. Now in addition to verbal abuse, he was open to physical abuse, which no one could do in all these years.

We hear of cases when someone put over his shoulder the intestines and other rejected parts of a slaughtered camel, while he was prostrating in Kaaba. On another occasion, someone tried to strangle him with a piece of cloth. Prophet bore all these abuses with dignity and with prayers to his lord.

Loss of his dear wife was a more personal loss. She was with him for 25 years and a big support and comfort in this hostile environment. He had two young daughters (UMM KULTHOOM & FATIMA) which were not yet married. His other two daughters (ZAINAB & RUQAIYYA) were already married, first one to ABUL AAS & other to Othman (Third Caliph after prophet). Prophet was busy in his prophetic mission and needed someone to take care of his daughters and house affairs.

The Arab society was polygamous and there was no restriction on any numbers of wives which a man could have. Prophet had kept himself contended with one wife (who was 15 years older than him,) for full 25 years. After her death, he decided to remarry.

His first wife was a twice widower, again prophet married a widow of Makkah, named SAUDAH, who was advanced in age, to take care of his unmarried daughters.

He also decided to marry Aiyesha, who was daughter of his closest friend Abu Bakr. She was young and had not yet reached the age of marriage. So the marriage was arranged, but it was not consummated, because she was not yet of age.

This is the marriage for which people now put hideous charges against his character. In Arab culture, it was a great honor, if you marry your best friend’s daughter. It would further cement the ties of friendship. That is why you will see later, prophet marrying the daughter of Omar also.

Prophet’s marriage to Aiyesha did not raise any eyebrow in contemporary society, as it was a normal matter. No one said anything about it, till after 1300 years, the modern critics make hue and cry about it.

Aiyesha was the only virgin, which the prophet married; all his other wives were widows. We will discuss his marriages (INSHALLAH) during Medina portion of his life, but since Aiyesha’ marriage was arranged in Makkah, I mentioned it for continuity.

If sex was only on the mind of prophet (as his critics would tell us to believe), there was no shortages of women in Makkah, who would love to become his wives.

Please put your comment on this episode

[Dee]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>
That is what happens when you translate from one language to another. The similes and finer point of idioms are lost. The simile of small boys moving around as "Pearls Dispersed" is of highest order in Arabic language, if you are not familiar then it is your problem.
Then your insinuation that God created some people as Homosexuals is misplaced. God did not create them as Homosexual, they themselves fell into that perversion because of their own choice and temptation of Satan. There is no blame with God for their perversion.
May be our knowledge to your culture is derived from Sitcoms and Hollywood films. But your knowledge of our culture is also based on media reports and novels, films and things you read. We both are equally ignorant of each other's culture (Even though we pretend to be "Experts" on each other culture).
My comments seem to hurt you very much, but have you reflected about your comments about our culture, our religion and our prophet? Hurt is a two way street my dear Sister.
We have done enough bickering about each other. Let us get back to our main discussion.
Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz Qidwai to MUQ

MUQ: "if you are not familiar then it is your problem."

It certainly isn't my problem. Since I don't believe in the Quran, its style and language are immaterial to me.

God did not create them as Homosexual,

Really? A boy in my street where I grew up was homosexual. He was a small feminine boy who loved fashion and books, was not in the slightest bit interested in male pursuits and never in women as sexual beings. I have known him since he was born, he has always been this way. There are many like him. So please explain how he is to blame for the way God made him. Did he decide at the age of five to be homosexual?

"My comments seem to hurt you very much"

The only thing your comments do is astound me.

"But your knowledge of our culture is also based on media reports and novels, films and things you read"

Your comments confirm everything I have ever read about the intolerance of Muslims and their refusal to see any point of view except their own.

[Gottaliv]

MUQ: "We have done enough bickering about each other. Let us get back to our main discussion."

Yeah, com'ooon Dee, fair go. You've interrupted the Sermon on the Mount for long enough - the Master has spoken - time to get back to the bible lesson.

I'm waiting with great expectation for chapter 1763 of "The Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East" ... um sorry, the Quran.

[Bob]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>

May be our knowledge to your culture is derived from Sitcoms and Hollywood films. But your knowledge of our culture is also based on media reports and novels, ear to

Well thats not true...Its based from the the words from your mouths your media http://www.memritv.org/

To others this is frighting stuff to the religious fanatic its paradise.

So I can say...I know your lies

[MUQ]

JepJep wrote:

<quoted text>
the fact that the bibles says we are all created in the image of God, and the exact way he wants us to be created shows the truth that God created homosexuals.
When i have kids, if one of them turned out to be lesbian or gay, i wouldn't hate or want them to die, God even says we are all created in his image, and it's not their fault, all the scientific prrof says that we cannot choose our sexual preference, and the fatc that you see homosexuality to be a sin disgusts me.
...

That is what happens, if you try to interpret the scriptures literally. Now you have
Put the blame of Homosexuality on God Himself. Did God created only males in His image? In whose image He created females? The image Bible is talking about is spiritual image and not this physical image, with eyes, ears, nose throat and sexual organs.

God never created anyone as Homosexual, nor anyone as thief, robber or murderer etc. He created every one as innocent and on pure nature. It is because of their own perversion and temptation of Satan that they chose those evil paths. Instead of solving the problem you try to justify and even implicate God into it.

Islamic laws are best and capable of creating best society. If Muslims do not implement or live by them, it is the fault of Muslims. I am not here to answer or defend actions of Muslims, I am here only to clarify and justify Islamic laws and their superiority.

The worldly progress of any society is not proof that they are closer to God and are on the right path. So do not be deceived that your progress in Science and Technology and Medicine is a proof that you have become closer to God.

The model of welfare state which you have today, have already been implemented by Muslims at least 1400 years back, when they were ruling the world. The concepts are same, you think that you have invented them. All of these were done by Muslims in their countries when they were on Top of World.

With each passing day, your civilization is on moral decline. Effects of moral degradations are visible only after a few generations. If you are going against nature, the consequences would be felt after a few generations. But the Tell-tale signs are there for every one who has eyes to watch.

Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz Qidwai to MUQ

[MUQ]

Gottaliv wrote:

<quoted text>
In keeping with your analogy of 'garden, weeds, flowers and people'...
It is a well know fact that when some things are imported from other countries they can contain hidden diseases and pests foreign to our land, which have the capabilities of destroying our land and our people. This is why we have quarantine regulations.
Perhaps not enough restrictions were put on importing these "weeds" you talk about, and it's time now to stop 'nurturing' them equally and to start culling them, so they do not take over our "garden" in the future.

One sign of perversion is that you loose your distinction between "Weed" and "Flowers" and reverse their positions. If you consider the increase in number of Muslims and acceptance of Islam by more and more of your Indigenous population as increase in "Weeds", then your sense of good and bad is already destroyed.

If you want to weed out them, then we have one Parallel from Bible, that the people of Lot, wanted to chuck out Lot and his family from their cities, because "They want to be Purer than us".

I hope your disease has not reached to that level; otherwise the chastisement from Lord would be due at any time!!!

Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz Qidwai to MUQ

[JepJep]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>
That is what happens when you translate from one language to another. The similes and finer point of idioms are lost. The simile of small boys moving around as "Pearls Dispersed" is of highest order in Arabic language, if you are not familiar then it is your problem.
Then your insinuation that God created some people as Homosexuals is misplaced. God did not create them as Homosexual, they themselves fell into that perversion because of their own choice and temptation of Satan. There is no blame with God for their perversion.
May be our knowledge to your culture is derived from Sitcoms and Hollywood films. But your knowledge of our culture is also based on media reports and novels, films and things you read. We both are equally ignorant of each other's culture (Even though we pretend to be "Experts" on each other culture).
My comments seem to hurt you very much, but have you reflected about your comments about our culture, our religion and our prophet? Hurt is a two way street my dear Sister.
We have done enough bickering about each other. Let us get back to our main discussion.
Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz Qidwai to MUQ

well obviously God id create homosexuals otherwise there would be none. You also say that science agree with Islam. You say (as a muslim) that God didn't create homosexuals and that they chose this themselves. However all scientific prrof says no one has a choice in their sexual preferences... something which christianity has agreed to sicne it's existance.

and actually we don't pretend to be experts on each other culture. We KNOW from testaments from people on documentaries from these islamic states that say all the things that we have been stating. But however all your statements have no been proven from anywhere.

Islam has always and will forever be only a Middle Eastern religion. As you can see... there is only one other MAJOR country with a muslim majority, and even then they don't have islamic laws like middle eastern countries.

[Dee]

MUQ: "If you consider the increase in number of Muslims and acceptance of Islam by more and more of your Indigenous population "

Indigenous people constitute approximately 2% of the population. A few angry young males have converted to Islam while in prison, generally as a reaction to white Australia. Who knows how long before they get bored with it and wander away. This means absolutely nothing in terms of either numbers or threat, some Aboriginals are Buddhists or Christians, the true Aboriginal belief is the Dreamtime.

MUQ: "God never created anyone as Homosexual, nor anyone as thief, robber or murderer etc"

So children who show signs of being homosexual are the same as murderers and thieves? How do you explain effeminate boys who are more interested in feminine pursuits than masculine? Did they decide at 7 years of age to be homosexuals?

Islamic laws are best and capable of creating best society

Then why are Muslim countries some of the most backward in the world? Why do millions of Muslims choose to live in Western countries? If Islam has created the best societies, why aren't millions of western people converting to Islam and moving to Muslim countries? Islam has created the best society for males only, you waste half your brainpower (females) and destroy anyone who shows the faintest sign of originality or progressive thinking.

"your civilization is on moral decline."

It depends how 'moral decline' is defined. Nobody in western countries considers executing those who do not conform to a rigid religious code as moral behaviour. Denying rights and education based on gender is not considered moral behaviour. You may find that after a generation or two of living in the West, many Muslims will reject Islam.

[JepJep]

MUQ wrote:

<quoted text>

“That is what happens, if you try to interpret the scriptures literally.”
Well if that’s what the bible says how else are you going to interpret it?
“Now you have Put the blame of Homosexuality on God Himself.”
Well I am not blaming God fro anything, being gay is nothing wrong. It is you who perceives it as something wrong, and therefore deserves blame.
“ Did God created only males in His image? In whose image He created females?”
In no where in the bible does it say whether god is male or female. God is always refered to as Lord, Almighty God, etc. etc. As I have said in the trinity, God is in three parts, the Father the son and the Holy Spirit and since God created them in his own image, which means how he wants them to be. Os if someone has wonky teeth, blonde hair, grey eyes, and gay or straight that means they are perfect the way they are because hats who God wants them to be!
“The image Bible is talking about is spiritual image and not this physical image, with eyes, ears, nose throat and sexual organs.”
How could you be so sure? Have you even read the bible? Isn’t having non- Islamic holy literature in Saudi Arabia illegal?
“God never created anyone as Homosexual, nor anyone as thief, robber or murderer etc. He created every one as innocent and on pure nature.”
The fact that you compare being gay to being a thief or a robber disgusts me so much that words cannot describe how many people must think of you.
“It is because of their own perversion and temptation of Satan that they chose those evil paths. Instead of solving the problem you try to justify and even implicate God into it.”
How can you solve a problem which is insolvable, let alone not even a problem? Gay people have been around forever since the dawn of human time. Science agrees to this as well, Christianity and practically all religions agree to this as well except Islam.
“Islamic laws are best and capable of creating best society. If Muslims do not implement or live by them, it is the fault of Muslims.”
Well obviously not since the western Christian and non- Islamic socities tend to be countries where people are happier with their lives and actually have a choice in how close to God they want to get without being forced. God wants the best for everyone, in the terms of the bible “Jew or Gentile”, God loves us all. But according to you God chooses who he wants to love and no.
“I am not here to answer or defend actions of Muslims, I am here only to clarify and justify Islamic laws and their superiority.”
Well you aren’t doing a good job of it I might add… considering you haven’t convinced anyone of their superiority.

[JepJep]

“The worldly progress of any society is not proof that they are closer to God and are on the right path. So do not be deceived that your progress in Science and Technology and Medicine is a proof that you have become closer to God.”

I have never stated that. But also according to you there is no proof the Islamic society is going closer to God either. And you cannot say anything to disprove me of this.

“The model of welfare state which you have today, have already been implemented by Muslims at least 1400 years back, when they were ruling the world.”

Islam has never ruled the world, Islam will never rule the world. You may have implemented this ideas 1400 years ago, but you chose to whom you implemented these ideas to, Christians do these things regardless of race, religion, sex etc. Even look, in Islamic countries , in the ones that can vote, the majority of them don’t allow women to vote!

“ The concepts are same, you think that you have invented them. All of these were done by Muslims in their countries when they were on Top of World.”

You keep on accusing us of bias and what not when you do the exact same things. Life cannot be so bad in western countries that all you Muslims keep moving to our countries! Obviously your society’s garden isn’t as appealing as ours is.

“With each passing day, your civilization is on moral decline. Effects of moral degradations are visible only after a few generations. If you are going against nature, the consequences would be felt after a few generations. But the Tell-tale signs are there for every one who has eyes to watch.”

You make me laugh so much; hypocrisy is such a funny thing.

[Gottaliv]

MUQ: "God never created anyone as Homosexual, nor anyone as thief, robber or murderer etc. He created every one as innocent and on pure nature. It is because of their own perversion and temptation of Satan that they chose those evil paths. Instead of solving the problem you try to justify and even implicate God into it."

So MUQ, which 'evil path' do you choose to take when dealing with homosexuality?

Do you cut off the offending part?
Do you try to reverse that behaviour by religious teachings?
Do you kill them?
Do you stone them?

Is any of the above your solution?

If not, what IS the solution to this 'evil' behaviour in your country?

[Gottaliv]

MUQ: "One sign of perversion is that you loose your distinction between "Weed" and "Flowers" and reverse their positions. If you consider the increase in number of Muslims and acceptance of Islam by more and more of your Indigenous population as increase in "Weeds", then your sense of good and bad is already destroyed."

I don't see how. Australia is MY garden of flowers. If other people of other cultures come here and pervade my garden with dangerous elements destructive to my flowers, then they will be treated like weeds, because those weeds will multiply and keep on destroying.

MUQ: "If you want to weed out them, then we have one Parallel from Bible, that the people of Lot, wanted to chuck out Lot and his family from their cities, because "They want to be Purer than us"."

You have got it so wrong. There is no way we want Muslims culled in this country because we think they want to be or are "Purer than us".
Purity has nothing to do with anything. In fact, we would be better off if we imported all heathens, as then there would be no controversy or radical religious propaganda to contend with and all others could get on with co-existing happily in a non-extreme religious atmosphere. In my opinion Islam is a tool of the Devil and he uses it to his advantage. But then, I don't believe in heaven or hell, god or the devil, I believe in evolution and the power of the Universe.

There is no other religion that has caused so much killing, so much animosity, so much up-set, so much discontentment, and so much hatred than Islam. That is not just my opinion, that is World opinion.

MUQ: "I hope your disease has not reached to that level; otherwise the chastisement from Lord would be due at any time!!!"

Well, he's taking his time in chastising me, I've been like this for 50 years and the Universe has been very good to me. You see MUQ, I don't "fear" any god, I don't "fear" the devil, I don't "fear" religion, I don't live my life in "fear" of anything. So I can't be frightened into religious submission by you or anyone else.

The only thing to fear in this life - is fear itself.

[MUQ]

JepJep wrote:

<quoted text>
“That is what happens, if you try to interpret the scriptures literally.”
Well if that’s what the bible says how else are you going to interpret it?
“...Well you aren’t doing a good job of it I might add… considering you haven’t convinced anyone of their superiority.

There are two types of fears, Physical and Spiritual. For physical fear, the scenario which you have described is correct.

Regarding Spiritual fear of Islam and Muslims, you have to look at the international media hype against them. We see many religions in the world, some even going to the level of absurdity (in their beliefs and practices), many of them call themselves as true and all other as false. Have you ever seen International Media taking any of them seriously?

Why is it only Islam that they are criticizing for past 1000 years? Do you know that is past 200 years, they have written 60,000 books against Islam? They have not written those many books supporting their own Christianity!!! Then if you consider articles and news stories written against Islam and Muslims during last 25 years, the figure would be close to a million.

What is the reason for that? It is only because of this Spiritual fear. If Islam is so illogical, blood thirsty and harmful for human civilization, why people in your lands are accepting it?

It is this trend and this fear of Islam which results in this type of propaganda. But this propaganda is helpful to Islam, because there are people who see thru this smoke screen and find out the truth of Islam and the real reason of your fear.

So I would like you to continue and increase your propaganda against Islam and Muslims. Our Experience of past 1000 years has shown that Islam is continuously on the rise.

Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz U. Qidwai to MUQ

[MUQ]

Contd.

Yes the God also Created Murderers, Serial Killers, Adulterers, Fornicators, Drug Pushers, Suicide Bombers and all those perverts and criminals, other wise there would be none!!!

Nothing happens in the world without God's knowledge and permission. People doing wrong acts do that with the will power which God has given to every one to choose between right and wrong. The blame is with individuals and not with God.

I know scientists these days justify Homosexuality, but they are wrong. In the same way scientists who try to justify and prove Creation of Universe and proliferation of life, without any Creator are wrong.

Who told you Islam is and forever will be a Mid-eastern religion? That shows your ignorance about Islam. More than 80 % Muslims are Non-Arabs. Number of Muslims in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh itself is more that double of all Arab Muslims. Largest Muslim country is Indonesia, which is Non Arab. There is no country in the world where sizable numbers of Muslims are not living.

However it is your media, which gives Islam and Muslims an Arabic and ethnic bias.

Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz U. Qidwai to MUQ

[MUQ]

To: Madam Dee

I think sister you are getting more and more paranoid about Islam. Even small things like similes are not acceptable to you. Should it say that "Women smell like roses or their skin is as soft as rose petal", you would probably take offense at it.

Simile of small beautiful children roaming around as “Like Pearls dispersed” is beautiful and correct. If you don’t appreciate it, the at least you could have kept quite, instead of deriving homosexuality in Quran!!!

I just don’t understand your mentality, justifying and defending every type of perversion. Be it religious, sexual, moral or social. As if you have lost the sense of right and wrong.

It seems you want to justify every thing which Islam prohibits and prohibit every thing which Islam justifies. This blind hate of Islam and Islamic system would burn you form inside and you would hardly be able to conduct any discussion in a reasonable manner. I am observing the belligerence in your tone and your writings for some time.

Both Muslims and Christians would continue to live on this planet, whether you like it or not. Muslims would continue to propagate their faith in every land, whether you like it or not.

You could try to expose Muslims and their falsehood as best as you can, but at least be pragmatic and do not go to extremes in every thing. You think there is nothing good in Islam, still it is able to appeal 20 % of world population for past 1400 years. Islam and Christianity are both older than our life spans. Even after we are dead, they would continue to exist.

So I request you to be reasonable and control both your tone and content, from going towards extremes.

Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz U. Qidwai to MUQ

[dee]

MUQ wrote:

To: Madam Dee
I think sister you are getting more and more paranoid about Islam. Even small things like similes are not acceptable to you. Should it say that "Women smell like roses or their skin is as soft as rose petal", you would probably take offense at it.
Simile of small beautiful children roaming around as “Like Pearls dispersed” is beautiful and correct. If you don’t appreciate it, the at least you could have kept quite, instead of deriving homosexuality in Quran!!!
I just don’t understand your mentality, justifying and defending every type of perversion. Be it religious, sexual, moral or social. As if you have lost the sense of right and wrong.
It seems you want to justify every thing which Islam prohibits and prohibit every thing which Islam justifies. This blind hate of Islam and Islamic system would burn you form inside and you would hardly be able to conduct any discussion in a reasonable manner. I am observing the belligerence in your tone and your writings for some time.
Both Muslims and Christians would continue to live on this planet, whether you like it or not. Muslims would continue to propagate their faith in every land, whether you like it or not.
You could try to expose Muslims and their falsehood as best as you can, but at least be pragmatic and do not go to extremes in every thing. You think there is nothing good in Islam, still it is able to appeal 20 % of world population for past 1400 years. Islam and Christianity are both older than our life spans. Even after we are dead, they would continue to exist.
So I request you to be reasonable and control both your tone and content, from going towards extremes.
Note: I have shortened my name from Moiz U. Qidwai to MUQ

MUQ: "Simile of small beautiful children roaming around as “Like Pearls dispersed” "

'Youths' are not small beautiful young children, they are young men, teenagers.

MOQ: "justifying and defending every type of perversion"

Do you ever actually read the responses? You sound like ranting lunatic -(no surprise there) I have never 'justified and defended' any type of perversion. You know what I find a 'perversion' as well as inhuman? That you would watch your own son imprisoned or hanged because of his sexual make-up. Would you join the audience watching him hang? That's a perversion. Your whole joyless hate-filled attitude to anything you can't understand is a perversion.

MUQ: "Muslims would continue to propagate their faith in every land"

I think we can all see who is blind and beligerent. Islam is increasingly unwelcome in the West, mainly because of people like you. If you believe we will ever bow down to Islam, you are seriously mistaken. Go back to dreaming, I can't be bothered arguing with your brainwashed mind.

[Gottaliv]

Gottaliv wrote:

MUQ: "God never created anyone as Homosexual, nor anyone as thief, robber or murderer etc. He created every one as innocent and on pure nature. It is because of their own perversion and temptation of Satan that they chose those evil paths. Instead of solving the problem you try to justify and even implicate God into it."
So MUQ, which 'evil path' do you choose to take when dealing with homosexuality?
Do you cut off the offending part?
Do you try to reverse that behaviour by religious teachings?
Do you kill them?
Do you stone them?
Is any of the above your solution?
If not, what IS the solution to this 'evil' behaviour in your country?

MUQ: Seeing as you have ignored my questions I therefore post the following information.

Perhaps if it is wrong you will see fit to answer me then.

[Gottaliv]

cont...

In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments—e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping—as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4,000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban, homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994, the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, most Muslim nations (except for Turkey, which has been ruled by secular law since 1923 and recently has modernized its laws in order to meet the requirements of entry to the European Union) insist that such laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.

[Gottaliv]

: "In a tradition from the Arabian nights, Muhammad was said to have warned his followers against staring at youth because of their beauty: "Do not gaze at beardless youth, for they have eyes more tempting than the huris."
----------

Do you think homosexuality be reduced in your country if "beardless youths" wore full protective covering like the women do, so men would not be tempted by them also??? Shouldn't you be addressing that temptation as well? Why only single out the women?

It seems to me that women are covered up to protect the men, not vice versa.