Brizzi: Police weren't told of abuse

Brizzi: Police weren't told of abuse

There are 520 comments on the The Indianapolis Star story from Nov 29, 2007, titled Brizzi: Police weren't told of abuse. In it, The Indianapolis Star reports that:

Marion County Prosecutor Carl Brizzi wants to know why the state Department of Child Services did not notify police after a caseworker determined TaJanay Bailey was physically abused in 2006.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Indianapolis Star.

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GetTheFacts

Muncie, IN

#548 Dec 11, 2007
Thanks Trish,

Yes, I saw that. And I am glad; it appears to be a step forward in the right direction.

Mr. Think Guy,

Can you not stay on topic? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions including MM. Why expend any energy on your posts and worry with what MM may or may not know? Personally, I think he is correct in a lot of his posts!
trish

New Albany, IN

#549 Dec 11, 2007
It might be a step in the right direction. Only choosing the families who have recently been reunited isn't right though. Now the same idiot who has it in for somebody can easily call the cops and have CPS come back to torture the family again. The only right thing is to take the power away from CPS to violate any and all rights they choose and instead of allowing them to hide behind the juvenile court system, make these cases public criminal matters.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#550 Dec 11, 2007
IndyMomma wrote:
<quoted text>
They can and do make value judgements all the time, I've seen it more than once. The only thing is that you've got to hope that the caseworker likes you, because otherwise no matter what you get to kiss your butt and kids goodbye.
Really, when I was a caseworker, I unsubstianted a lot of cases of people that I didn't like.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#551 Dec 11, 2007
MR THINKY GUY wrote:
<quoted text>You're generally wasting your time trying to talk to MM. He desperately wants you to think he's an expert on everything from welfare to law enforcement -- and he's clearly not -- and if you disagree with him, he starts his name calling beginning with you're an idiot.
Most people on these posts are quite certain he's never served in any uniform except perhaps the one with golden arches on the sleeve.
You are more than welcome to come to my office and ask for a worker in the military! Then you can say that to me face to face. When I was on the enlisted side, I did wear what would be considered "golden arches" on my sleeve of the Class A. There were 3 of them.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#552 Dec 11, 2007
IndyMomma wrote:
<quoted text>
Really is that why there are multi millions of dollars in suits against the state of Indiana for violating those rights? It's interesting that isn't being mentioned much....maybe the taxpayers would be extra ticked to know that DCS is inept and costing them money.
Because suits are filed against the state doesn't mean the state did anything wrong. I can file a suit against you for whatever...does that mean you did anything wrong? DCS does not have to mirandize alleged perpetrators. That's only in criminal court. Parents are given a notice of availability. If detention is necessary, then they are given legal notice of detention. Rules of evidence differ on the type of courts involved. Criminal cases have the highest burden due to felonies and misdemeanors being on record. In fact, a neglect case could be lost in criminal court based, yet won in civil (CHINS) court.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#553 Dec 11, 2007
IndyMomma wrote:
<quoted text>
No they don't use physical force, they just use ignorance and force of perceived authority to get their "consent" which also is not legal since it's given with the implied threat of the removal of the children. Most people don't know they don't have to let the search without SIGNED CONSENT and hence, that is how they do their dirty work.
Singed consent to search?? You will not find that anywhere in Indiana Code. Please find it for me since you seem to know soooo much.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/ .

You can agree to have them search or you can deny them that, and then DCS can get a court order. That doesn't require parents to sign anything.

Also, police only mirandize if they find evidence, not before. You wouldn't have to mirandize until you are arrested and charged with a crime or before making a statement in which you are the prime suspect. In a CPS investigation, no one is a suspect yet while finding out information to see if the report is either true or not. In CHINS court, you are not "Charged with a crime" meaning, if you are only involved in CHINS court, a criminal search will not pull that record up. Only misdemeanors/felonies which is criminal court.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#554 Dec 11, 2007
trish wrote:
<quoted text>Indy Momma, you're 100% right. They violate the 4th amendment every time the knock on a door and don't tell the parents that they're not required to cooperate. I believe when they take pictures without informing you that they will be used against you later, they're also violating the 4th amendment.
Actually, they are not. But you can believe what you want. Police don't knock on the door and then tell whoever is there that they don't have to answer any questions and mirandize them. They find out the situation and get information to see if it is required or not to go that route. The same with DCS. Once it is warranted that legal involvement is necessary...then legal rights are presented to them and it is up to them whether they exercise them or not.
IndyMomma

Carmel, IN

#555 Dec 11, 2007
Military Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Really, when I was a caseworker, I unsubstianted a lot of cases of people that I didn't like.
Then you were in the minority then.

Maybe they don't need it signed here in IN as far as consent, I was speaking about CPS as a whole. However, what good is consent when CPS tells you do it, or I get a court order (and the implication on the part of the caseworker is "I'll nail you but good if I have to go get a court order). It's like being told by the mob hey, give money for us to protect you, or something unfortunate will happen.

As for the court cases, well you are right that they don't mean anything until judges start finding for the plaintiffs that their rights are being violated by CPS, and more and more cases in IN are finding that to be true.

Also one other point, what the heck does it matter if somebody is guilty or not of say being a sexual predator when it involves CPS and they decide that the case is "indicated" and they go and tell school systems and government offices that. Whether the person did it or not, they are effectively ruined.

CPS should stand for Corruption Permeating Society. Maybe you could wipe the brown off your nose for a bit, and realize the system needs fixing.
IndyMomma

Carmel, IN

#556 Dec 11, 2007
Government should never interfere with the natural rights of man, except only when it is essential for the good of society, the state recognizes, and enforces, the right which nature gives to parents [48 Colo. 466] to the custody of their own children, and only supervenes with its sovereign power when the necessities of the case require it. The experience of man has demonstrated that the best development of a young life is within the sacred precincts of a home, the members of which are bound together by ties entwined through 'bone of their bone and flesh of their flesh'; that it is in such homes and under such influences that the sweetest, purest, noblest, and most attractive qualities of human nature, so essential to good citizenship, are best nurtured and grow to wholesome fruition; that, when a state is based and builded upon such homes, it is strong in patriotism, courage, and all the elements of the best civilization. Accordingly these recurring facts in the experience of man resulted in a presumption establishing prima facie that parents are in every way qualified to have the care, custody, and control of their own offspring, and that their welfare and interests are best subserved under such control. Thus, by natural law, by common law, and, likewise, the statutes of this state, the natural parents are entitled to the custody of their minor children, except when they are unsuitable persons to be entrusted with their care, control, and education, or when some exceptional circumstances appear which render such custody inimical to the best interests of the child. While the right of a parent to the custody of its infant child is therefore, in a sense, contingent, the right can never be lost or taken away so long as the parent properly nurtures, maintains, and cares for the child. Wilson v. Mitchell, 111 P. 21, 25-26, 48 Colo. 454 (Colo. 1910)
It is my belief then, that if the stakes are so high, the enforcers of these duties must be held to higher standards. Indiana is falling far short for protecting both the innocent and protecting the weak.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#557 Dec 11, 2007
IndyMomma wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you were in the minority then.
Maybe they don't need it signed here in IN as far as consent, I was speaking about CPS as a whole. However, what good is consent when CPS tells you do it, or I get a court order (and the implication on the part of the caseworker is "I'll nail you but good if I have to go get a court order). It's like being told by the mob hey, give money for us to protect you, or something unfortunate will happen.
As for the court cases, well you are right that they don't mean anything until judges start finding for the plaintiffs that their rights are being violated by CPS, and more and more cases in IN are finding that to be true.
Also one other point, what the heck does it matter if somebody is guilty or not of say being a sexual predator when it involves CPS and they decide that the case is "indicated" and they go and tell school systems and government offices that. Whether the person did it or not, they are effectively ruined.
CPS should stand for Corruption Permeating Society. Maybe you could wipe the brown off your nose for a bit, and realize the system needs fixing.
Brown on my nose??? In here, really? If I can't effectively state facts and opinion freely in here, where can I do it?
IndyMomma

Louisville, KY

#558 Dec 11, 2007
you can state facts and opinion in here, just as much as I can. However, it doesn't mean that I can't think that you are snuggled up next to the teat that is CPS when it comes to your self admitted income from them.
trish

United States

#559 Dec 11, 2007
IndyMomma wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you were in the minority then.
Maybe they don't need it signed here in IN as far as consent, I was speaking about CPS as a whole. However, what good is consent when CPS tells you do it, or I get a court order (and the implication on the part of the caseworker is "I'll nail you but good if I have to go get a court order). It's like being told by the mob hey, give money for us to protect you, or something unfortunate will happen.
Try having them tell your teenage daughter that because she's the one who happened to answer the door. Try having a "visitation supervisor" tell your son, when you are trying to give temporary custody to a trusted family friend, that his parents signed their rights away to him and his sister to the state. Then when the caseworker tells you "it wasn't a lie it was an unintentional miscommunication", restrain yourself from punching her right in the face. Normally I'm calm but when you're already stressed out and going through hell, all over having too many cats, not for hiting your children, molesting them, or even failing to provide food or shelter for them and your son calls you scared to death after a lie like that, you develop a hatred for anyone involved in the system.
Back to the topic, and my original point in all of these posts, CPS failed to do their job and they did violate a law.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_p...
In May of 06, they didn't file an abuse report with the police or prosecutor. Whoever is responsible for not doing so deserves to lose their job at the very least. They should be charged with criminal neglect too.
IndyMomma

Carmel, IN

#560 Dec 12, 2007
trish wrote:
<quoted text>Try having them tell your teenage daughter that because she's the one who happened to answer the door. Try having a "visitation supervisor" tell your son, when you are trying to give temporary custody to a trusted family friend, that his parents signed their rights away to him and his sister to the state. Then when the caseworker tells you "it wasn't a lie it was an unintentional miscommunication", restrain yourself from punching her right in the face. Normally I'm calm but when you're already stressed out and going through hell, all over having too many cats, not for hiting your children, molesting them, or even failing to provide food or shelter for them and your son calls you scared to death after a lie like that, you develop a hatred for anyone involved in the system.
Back to the topic, and my original point in all of these posts, CPS failed to do their job and they did violate a law.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_p...
In May of 06, they didn't file an abuse report with the police or prosecutor. Whoever is responsible for not doing so deserves to lose their job at the very least. They should be charged with criminal neglect too.
Good post, and I'm sorry to say fairly typical for DCS despite what their champion, MM might say. Good luck to you, and yes somebody does need to pay the piper for failing that child.
trish

United States

#561 Dec 12, 2007
We jumped through their hoops and they closed the case. I know by watching Gina Leys face we scared her when we let her know they violated a federal law. They have no valid reason to bother us now. We do have a neighbor who is related to the one we're sure put the call in who stalks us, but we've told her to stay away. You have to learn how to use the system when you need to, such as filing reports on a stalking neighbor with the police department. You also have to know how to work the system in order to get them out of your life. You have to kiss ass and pretend to like it. You should always record every conversation between anyone in your family and anyone from CPS, it makes it harder for them to lie and twist your words. Our kids have said if they ever see a strange vehicle outside they'll run rather than let CPS abduct them again. That's a shame, a 16 and 13 year old who don't break laws and live with law abiding parents shouldn't have to fear their own government.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#562 Dec 12, 2007
trish wrote:
<quoted text>Try having them tell your teenage daughter that because she's the one who happened to answer the door. Try having a "visitation supervisor" tell your son, when you are trying to give temporary custody to a trusted family friend, that his parents signed their rights away to him and his sister to the state. Then when the caseworker tells you "it wasn't a lie it was an unintentional miscommunication", restrain yourself from punching her right in the face. Normally I'm calm but when you're already stressed out and going through hell, all over having too many cats, not for hiting your children, molesting them, or even failing to provide food or shelter for them and your son calls you scared to death after a lie like that, you develop a hatred for anyone involved in the system.
Back to the topic, and my original point in all of these posts, CPS failed to do their job and they did violate a law.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_p...
In May of 06, they didn't file an abuse report with the police or prosecutor. Whoever is responsible for not doing so deserves to lose their job at the very least. They should be charged with criminal neglect too.
No one broke the law. Read your web site again in regard to Indiana. Law enforcment must make an assessment is the child is a victim in calls they go out on. If the child is not a victim and no arrests are being made, the DCS probably will not be contacted, as what happened when the police went out in November. Sooo, how is this violating the law exactly?
trish

United States

#563 Dec 12, 2007
"A copy of the written report of the department shall immediatly be made available to:
The appropriate law enforcement agency
The prosecuting attorney and
In a case involving death, the coroner for the coroner's consideration"
Seems pretty clear that the department is CPS and any idiot can figure out what "law enforcement agency" and "prosecuting attorney" are. They failed to file the reports in May 06 so they broke the law. Social workers are mandatory reporters of abuse and neglect.
Under professionals required to report, the list says "Any staff member of a medical or other public or private institution, school, facility, or agency"
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_p...
How does that not include CPS/DCS?

“Dir BooneCountyFathe rs.Org”

Since: Mar 07

Lebanon, IN

#564 Dec 12, 2007
Only when the government, through the family courts, is taken out of the BUSINESS of dictating how people live their lives and doing it in secret will protection of children actually occur. In Boone County our advocacy organization has become a de facto reporting agency of child protection because the government run CPS doesn't do the job.
In Boone County protection of children is not the mission of our public agencies. It is only lining their own pockets. We have managed to run family law court judge Steve David out of town and now we are working on the next in line.
It doesn't take a village(the government) to raise a child it takes two parents. The courts and government agencies need to concentrate on protecting children and not micromanaging peoples lives.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#565 Dec 13, 2007
trish wrote:
"A copy of the written report of the department shall immediatly be made available to:
The appropriate law enforcement agency
The prosecuting attorney and
In a case involving death, the coroner for the coroner's consideration"
Seems pretty clear that the department is CPS and any idiot can figure out what "law enforcement agency" and "prosecuting attorney" are. They failed to file the reports in May 06 so they broke the law. Social workers are mandatory reporters of abuse and neglect.
Under professionals required to report, the list says "Any staff member of a medical or other public or private institution, school, facility, or agency"
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_p...
How does that not include CPS/DCS?
Sorry, Trish, I agree with you. I thought your were referring to the incident in which the police went out in November. You are correct, and I have stated this before that the law is that the 311 is forwarded to the prosecutor in order for them to determine if there is a criminal case. However, in my experience, DCS and the prosecution works together to determine the types of case that should be referred. If the prosecutors office got EVERY report in every county, then they would be overloaded in reviews...also, not every case requires LEA involvement either. However, in this case, in which a child wen to the hospital, you are correct, the investigator should have contact law enforcement. But we really don't know if they happened. When I was an investigator and I have contacted LEA, we would wait for hours or no one would be dispatched..and then LEA would actually never get the call! That was frustrating. Luckily, I had a child abuse detective in IPD that I am friends with to this day that I would just contact. Remember, IMPD is also overloaded and sometimes, DCS is at the bottom of their list. Not always, and it doesn't make it right, its just reality.
Military Man

Pryor, OK

#566 Dec 13, 2007
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title31...

This is a better source of information.
trish

Indianapolis, IN

#567 Dec 13, 2007
In November the police would have had no way of knowing about CPS being involved. That's a shame too, I do hope better cross reporting saves childrens lives. Child abuse should be a top priority for everyone. I'm sure we all agree on that. All anybody has to do to know how overworked the IMPD is, is turn on the news. Even in Lebanon, we have reported a parent who was allowing a pot/alcohol party by her 13 year old son and his friends. It took three calls to even get the police to come out. Kids shouldn't slip through the cracks and I would love to exchange ideas with people who would truly like to improve the system.
I have seen it suggested that when domestic abuse or animal abuse are present in homes with kids CPS should be notified. As anti-CPS as I am with the system the way it is now, I believe it would be a good idea. People who are willing to beat and torture their partners or animals are more likely to turn on their kids.
Thank you for the link MM. I'm reading it while I type.

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