Permethrin Works, Helps and Hurts - m...
Eor

Puerto Rico

#162 Nov 22, 2011
thank you.
Reina wrote:
I don't know why the original post didn't show but here it is again.
In a moment of narcissism I wanted to share my scabies story. Maybe it's not narcissism and it's just me trying to help anyone searching the internet for help with this. I was very lost, scared and confused when I had scabies. I'll try to include all of the keywords I searched for so other people won't take a week, like I did, to find this forum and all of its helpful answers and people. I'll also post links to my photos.
I woke up one morning to a row of welts behind my knee. It happened overnight. I immediately thought I had bedbugs because of the obvious linear nature of my bites and it occurring in bed over night.
This picture is from about 4 days after so they'd spread but it started out as that one line plus a small cluster which fused together: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/cru5h/...
I treated my room as though I had bed bugs when I thought that's what I had. I searched high and low with absolutely no sign of bedbugs whatsoever. I sealed the mattress and all of my pillowcases. I washed my sheets and covers every single day. So I felt safe that my bed was nice and clean inside of its zippered wrap. I continued to wash everything (towel, washcloths, linens, etc.) every day. I sealed my throw pillows and comforter off in a garbage bag after washing them. I vacuumed every day as well.
Another pic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/cru5h/...
And here is a detailed photo of the scabies bumps I had: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/cru5h/...
They were bitten in lines with bites so close together that when they swelled, they swelled into one another. After almost a week I was frightened because it was getting worse. I tried using a steroid-cortizone foam on it thinking it was a simple bite. After 24 hours there was no difference. In fact it got worse. I tried Cortizone 10, Benedryl tablets, standard anti-itch creams and I even tried suffocating it with nail polish like ringworm. Nothing. I just kept getting worse. The itch was relentless. They were like sea lice in the way they felt alive and if one itched they would all itch.
It was also getting infected (probably because of the nail polish thing). My leg was swollen from the knee down and it hurt. Walking became difficult. I went to the ER and was told I had a bacterial skin infection, not an emergency. He also said I didn't have scabies because they were just behind my knee, not all over. I didn't doubt the skin infection part - but I knew I had scabies or some other kind of mite.
My primary physician wouldn't see me on an emergency visit since I was new. My insurance claimed to cover Urgent Care centers but even the ones listed in their provider books didn't accept it. So I shelled out $75 for urgent care and was diagnosed with scabies that night. I was prescribed Permethrin. I went home, took a shower and put it on afterward, went to sleep thinking I'd wake up all better.
I woke up unaffected. I read around about how long Perm takes to work so I decided I'd be patient. I found relief from the itching in a bottle of Listerine and a bag of cotton balls. If I stayed cool and dry and put some Listerine on them, I could almost sleep through the night. The day after I took Permethrin, I walked around my enormous school campus all morning and found that my welts had burst and oozed everywhere. There was a rash forming around the bitten areas though, too. It seemed they were spreading. I woke with 2 more bites on the other leg.

Since: Aug 11

Cannington, Australia

#163 Nov 22, 2011
Eor wrote:
thank you.
<quoted text>
wow good photos!
SonyaCalifornia

United States

#164 Nov 23, 2011
After reading ALL OF THESE posts... I'm so glad that people were not afraid to tell their stories. Just so you ALL know you have helped a mother of 4 . Who's eldest son brought that stuff in my house. Him and his GF, with my 2 year old being open to it! I was SO MAD , it took me 3 weeks now, but seems that the BEST thing to do is 1: see a Dr, IMMEDIATLEY. 2: follow orders to a T. & 3: Arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible, before you drive yourself crazy SCRATCHING! "knowledge is power"!
Scabies infection

Como, CO

#165 Nov 24, 2011
I got fleas and scabies from a motel room in Las Vegas,Nv and yes i did call the Health Dept on them.I had hair to my tail bone and cut it to my shoulders.I used nix on hair and comb.I knew something was really wrong when i put my hand and arm and collected the water and used a mag glass and did research on net and Scabies.I have my box springs in plastic and put my mattress in plastic.You can call a mattress store and for free they have the bags new.Use packing tape to seal it u.I washed the floors in lysol lemon when i put my foot down they bit hard then fled my feet with in seconds.I wash in tide and borax then dry high heat and bag the clothes,towles cause fleas.If scabies only this will kill them in washer/dryer the clothes.I use paul mitchell tea tree shampoo/cond.Very stong sice they dont like it on my hair and body.Other brands of this tea tree shampoo weak.They like sweet smelling shampoo/lotions.They will eat me alive.I use cetaphil lotion on face.Permethrin cream 5 percent on body head not face.I wear latex gloves on hands since i have to eat food and dont want to get them in food.The er gave me the cream and stromectol 3 mg tabs take 5 pills at once.Used raid fumigator in car.Since it has permethrin in it.Car was infested bad.I rent a condo .I wish wood floors but carpet.Hosptial told me t osteam clean floor than call orkin to spray for the fleas/mites.IThis is skin to skin contact to infect also.So i dont want others to get it from me.Clean the tub and tolit with lysol lemon and use paper towel to throw away since dont want to re infect again.Put new clothes on everyday.Wash the old ones dry all in highest heat wash dry and bag them.Flea can live even after high heat wash and dry and they hop big time.Used the raid fumigators sold at walmart pack of three.Did car and trunk.I got infected on 13 today is 24th Nov.This sucks.The pills they gave me last night made a big change.Not being bit alot.Plus cream help alot too.I told the hospital what i had and they came in with gowns,gloves,hair nets etc.I phoned them in advance and told them .I have Scabies and flees and i am coming in and i dont want to spread the infection.They said if i do these things i could be free of it in 30days.Have a few pencil marks on wrist.I keep my pillows which are new in plastic they came in and wipe them down with lysol yellow everyday and bed too.Dont use sheets though.It is encased in plastic.Fleas and the mites.I used lavander lotion before i knew what was going on.Felt likei was eaten alive.Say away from nice sweet smelling things.But the paul mitchell tea tree to clean hair and body they dont like.If you dont have insurance i would call er and tell them you have scabies that you used a mag glass and need the pills and cream.This is a must i feel.I will see what happens.Any one have advice or used this method?
Scabies infection

Como, CO

#166 Nov 24, 2011
Scabies infection wrote:
I got fleas and scabies from a motel room in Las Vegas,Nv and yes i did call the Health Dept on them.I had hair to my tail bone and cut it to my shoulders.I used nix on hair and comb.I knew something was really wrong when i put my hand and arm and collected the water and used a mag glass and did research on net and Scabies.I have my box springs in plastic and put my mattress in plastic.You can call a mattress store and for free they have the bags new.Use packing tape to seal it u.I washed the floors in lysol lemon when i put my foot down they bit hard then fled my feet with in seconds.I wash in tide and borax then dry high heat and bag the clothes,towles cause fleas.If scabies only this will kill them in washer/dryer the clothes.I use paul mitchell tea tree shampoo/cond.Very stong sice they dont like it on my hair and body.Other brands of this tea tree shampoo weak.They like sweet smelling shampoo/lotions.They will eat me alive.I use cetaphil lotion on face.Permethrin cream 5 percent on body head not face.I wear latex gloves on hands since i have to eat food and dont want to get them in food.The er gave me the cream and stromectol 3 mg tabs take 5 pills at once.Used raid fumigator in car.Since it has permethrin in it.Car was infested bad.I rent a condo .I wish wood floors but carpet.Hosptial told me t osteam clean floor than call orkin to spray for the fleas/mites.IThis is skin to skin contact to infect also.So i dont want others to get it from me.Clean the tub and tolit with lysol lemon and use paper towel to throw away since dont want to re infect again.Put new clothes on everyday.Wash the old ones dry all in highest heat wash dry and bag them.Flea can live even after high heat wash and dry and they hop big time.Used the raid fumigators sold at walmart pack of three.Did car and trunk.I got infected on 13 today is 24th Nov.This sucks.The pills they gave me last night made a big change.Not being bit alot.Plus cream help alot too.I told the hospital what i had and they came in with gowns,gloves,hair nets etc.I phoned them in advance and told them .I have Scabies and flees and i am coming in and i dont want to spread the infection.They said if i do these things i could be free of it in 30days.Have a few pencil marks on wrist.I keep my pillows which are new in plastic they came in and wipe them down with lysol yellow everyday and bed too.Dont use sheets though.It is encased in plastic.Fleas and the mites.I used lavander lotion before i knew what was going on.Felt likei was eaten alive.Say away from nice sweet smelling things.But the paul mitchell tea tree to clean hair and body they dont like.If you dont have insurance i would call er and tell them you have scabies that you used a mag glass and need the pills and cream.This is a must i feel.I will see what happens.Any one have advice or used this method?
I just heard popping in my ears.Took a qtip put cetapli lotion on it and did my ears but did not sick in my ear drum just all around the eaf and canal.popping stopped.Lysol the hard leather chair im sitting in with paper towels and lemon lysol liquis,They fled off chair.I am thinking that i need to stem clean floor than bomd the house than put plastic runners down so i can wipe it all the time with lysol.Wish i had wood or all tile floors.Would be much easier to mamage.Have the carpet in the condo i rent.This sucks...
Scabies infection

Como, CO

#168 Nov 27, 2011
I am doing much better.I wear latex gloves.I found that mixing lysol yellow liquid and 2 table spoons in a spray bottle.I spry on plastic encased bed and have the pillows in plasic.But do use a fresh trash bag on pillows each nite.I dont forget to fill the tub with the lysol borax mixture to clean it out before a bath since they hang in the tub too.I do see them with a mag glass.I took pills and the cream the hospital gave a script for.I phned the Dr. my family Dr. and told him i may need several scripts for this.He agreed to call anything in i need.I have Bird mite Scabies since they affected my hair.I have Fleas too.This is all from motel in vegas,I do see if you google hotel in Las vegas the name of it in google with bed bugs,fleas,scabies.This is all aroud spreading.I cover my self with a heavy cotton robe at nite.Then wash and dry again for the next nite.I sleep in a long sleave shirt cotton and new underware and loose jeans.The pills the Hospital gave me made a hugh thing for me.But the latex gloves at walgreens to use to touch things and cook is important.They like sweet stuff like lavender,berry fruit shampoo lotions.I bathe also in the paul Mitchell tea tree shampoo .I use cond same on hair.It says to throw out razor if you shave and not reuse.I am happy to know that after reading many posts on the net .I did figure out what i had by putting my arm under the sink with water full and use a mag glass and looked on the net.Many don't even know what it is.I cut my nails down so i dont scratch.I feel for anyone who has this.This is some bad stuff.But i see scabies for dogs mange,scabies and bird mite scabies.I have. Any other suggestions?They dont like boraz the fless or scabies on carpet.I vac everyday then re apply the borax over again.My car is flee and scabie free.I used the raid fumigators pack of 3 for 12.88.It has to be this kind it had the same ingred as the premethrin cream but it is 12 percent.Any other ideas?I will keep u updates.I see many who use nail polish,etc.This will go to blood stream since skin on body or scalp.So i hope people are careful.Go to er if you dont have insurance they still have to see you.Tell them you have scabies via water test and you need the pills and cream.The pharmacist told me every 5 daYS I Couuld get refill of pills and i am going too.
mel

Thompsonville, MI

#169 Nov 29, 2011
Scabies no more!!!!! Booooo-to-the-Yaaaaaaaaaa! Not sure what to do about all the post scabies reaction on my skin....still looking rough in spots. But doc gave me the clear, and nothing new has popped up and itching is mostly gone. Every now and then a spot will itch for a little while, but mostly, everything is healing and looking better!
Kill scabies

Perth, Australia

#170 Dec 6, 2011
Gah! Have been struggling With this for over 6 months! Just done a treatment of perm 2 days ago, treated the whole family in one hit... And treated myself with perm cream 2 days in a row as I'm the worst. Oops!
First 2 nights sleep with perm cream on were heaven! Now I'm at my first night without it! Have been a little itchy today, trying so hard to believe its post scabies! Washing the linen I've used everyday and also only wearing clean washed clothing everyday! Clothes that havnt been worn since diagnosis are in isolation in garbage bags, OUTSIDE. Have washed every peice of clothing & linen in the whole house in hot water & borax! Have no idea how borax works, have just read alot about it???! Washing Took days!
I think I'm paranoid! I had 2 doctors misdiagnose me as razor burn... WTF! I don't shave my arms. Anyway, I have pretty much diagnosed myself and my family.
I just hate hearing about all these failed attempts with perm cream! I'm also scared they're living in my mattress! Have ironed it & vacuumed it with a specific mites vacuum cleaner! Only bought new pillows about a month ago, so have vacuumed & ironed them too!
Someone help!
I've heard a dermatologist can monitor if the mites are dead or still alive, but I'm almost out of money D:
Advice advice advice!!!

Since: Aug 11

Cannington, Australia

#172 Dec 6, 2011
the borax stays in your cloths and takes weeks to wash out.they wont want to get on them!

Since: Aug 11

Cannington, Australia

#173 Dec 6, 2011
Kill scabies wrote:
Gah! Have been struggling With this for over 6 months! Just done a treatment of perm 2 days ago, treated the whole family in one hit... And treated myself with perm cream 2 days in a row as I'm the worst. Oops!
First 2 nights sleep with perm cream on were heaven! Now I'm at my first night without it! Have been a little itchy today, trying so hard to believe its post scabies! Washing the linen I've used everyday and also only wearing clean washed clothing everyday! Clothes that havnt been worn since diagnosis are in isolation in garbage bags, OUTSIDE. Have washed every peice of clothing & linen in the whole house in hot water & borax! Have no idea how borax works, have just read alot about it???! Washing Took days!
I think I'm paranoid! I had 2 doctors misdiagnose me as razor burn... WTF! I don't shave my arms. Anyway, I have pretty much diagnosed myself and my family.
I just hate hearing about all these failed attempts with perm cream! I'm also scared they're living in my mattress! Have ironed it & vacuumed it with a specific mites vacuum cleaner! Only bought new pillows about a month ago, so have vacuumed & ironed them too!
Someone help!
I've heard a dermatologist can monitor if the mites are dead or still alive, but I'm almost out of money D:
Advice advice advice!!!
i have had the best dermo in western australia say i dont have active scabies,what a joke,i have had them for 17 years and when i told him he said thats impossible and that i would have crusted scabies! i said you better ring someone cause i have had them for so long and you need advise on how to treatme and he told me he was consided the best becuase he had worked in so many countries! you should be ok cause its early! make sure you treat head and hair!
Scarlet

Lake Arrowhead, CA

#174 Jan 14, 2012
Reina wrote:
Just wanted to come back and update my thread. Since some time in early February I have not had another post-scabies outbreak. My skin is not quite as dry as it once was, and isn't itchy from the dryness anymore. I can say with much confidence and elation that I am cured.
I still have faint scarring from the burrows on the back of my leg but otherwise, I'm feeling great. I'll keep coming back here to answer questions as long as there are questions. And thank you to those if you who have posted your own treatment successes.
I am SO HAPPY to hear this. Right now, this feels like it will never end. How do you really know its post scabies or reinfection. I am seeing some bugs still come out of my skin. I am endlessly anxious and tired. On top of this i have to take care of a sick relative and work full time. I am exhausted. I need something to help me before I go over the edge. I used Perm cream 2 times so far. I am using every other treatment i'm finding on the internet (tea tree, Diatomaceous Earth, neem oil, epson salt)
My skin looks way worse than your pictures. I am all broken out looks like chicken pox.
Help?
dipod

Halifax, UK

#175 Jan 15, 2012
Thank you Reina for the advice. Full of common sense I'd say. I believe a lot of our problems are caused by the overuse of the prescribed medicines. I was guilty too. I got through 5 x 30gram tubes of permethrin before I could accept that I was scabies free. As I pointed out in my post, I am now using a light emolient cream all over, and 1% hydrocortisone on the ugly patches which remain.It has been a month now on this regime and I'm pleased to report that the patches are slowly fading.And don't forget that we all itch.Especially those with dry skin - myself included.We itched before having scabies and we shall no doubt itch after too!And get the odd spot.Ain't paranoia great!
help preg mom of two

Prairie Village, KS

#176 Jan 25, 2012
Eor wrote:
thank you.
<quoted text>
.......ummm so how did u get rid of them
jennifer

Peachtree City, GA

#177 Feb 8, 2012
Ivermectin is the best choice - most effective and can be purchased cheaply for those uninsured at Tractor supply ( durvet brand is about four dollars ). You can divide your weight by the tube which covers a 1200 lb horse , thus if you weigh 200 lbs, you take 1/6 of tube . It is overall a safe drug at right dosage , and this is pharmacy grade - all vet meds are . and it is cheap ! The drug for people is expensive .( apple flavored is not bad ). It is probably best to treat again in a week .
Lots of people use vet meds . You can buy them also at amazon.
Rob

Canada

#178 Feb 9, 2012
@Scarlet

There is simply no way that you're "seeing bugs come out of your skin". Scabies is microscopic and can only be seen under a microscope (thus the term "microscopic"). If you're actually seeing bugs, it's something else or you're hallucinating. They simply cannot be seen by the human eye (though the burrows can).

I was pretty sure I was in post scabies, but I'm starting to question. I've had a couple of burrow like bumps appear on my wrist and fingers, though they vanish in a day or two (I also constantly have my hands touching sanitizing solution at work so that may be killing them?).

Anyone who had post scabies experience this, or should I just go get checked at the doctors again?

Since: Nov 11

Beirut, Lebanon

#179 Feb 12, 2012
Hi all, I thought I'd write an update since I came to these forums when I had scabies and found both help and harm.

1. I also overreacted when I had scabies. My doctor misdiagnosed it as allergic dermatitis, gave me prednisone, which made it worse when the prednisone was over. I did not have burrows, only bumps, which apparently can be the case if you shower and scrub regularly (which I always did).

2. The Permethrin worked. I apparently had scabies for a long, long time - I started feeling symptoms in July and didn't get the medicine until September. By that point I was taking so many benadryl every day that I was falling asleep at work. I have no primary care phsyician here so I just went with what the walk in clinic doctor said, which was allergic dermatitis, but she was wrong.

3. Scabies IS in fact microscopic but I read that if you see a bump with a brownish speck in it, that can be a mite. I sanitized my hand and a needle, and very carefully poked the little blister thing and excavated what looked like a speck of dirt. It was impossible to see what it was, but I have a macro lens for taking closeup shots and I got a photo, zoomed in on my computer, and saw it was a mite. I called my friend who is a pharmacist and ordered the permethrin.

4. BECAUSE, I think, I had it for so long, it didn't feel like it went away. I have sensitive skin and the permethrin did all sorts of other things to it. I continued to get bumps, especially in dry weather or after a shower, but my baseline for comparison was "am I feeling itchy enough to take benadryl? or some of the itch cream i was prescribed?" and the answer was, except for maybe two very dry days, always no.

5. I put the permethrin on once more to be safe, left my room and all my stuff bagged up, went to my parents house for a day, applied the stuff while my backpack of clothes was in the freezer, then left as soon as I showered in the morning. Then I went to NYC, stayed there for two more days, and returned to where I live now four days after. This was, I realize in retrospect, me being overly cautious. I never sprayed, bleached, or did anything.

The itching stayed for a while. Probably didn't go away fully until November. I still have some bumps. I now have a few patches of what look like eczema in the places that were itchiest in the past; I think applying the permethrin three times permanently damaged my skin, or maybe it was the scabies. But everything is very, very, very slowly getting back to normal.

My advice:

Make a fail safe plan that involves getting away from home for a few days to allow them to die off on their own. Don't use all these chemicals. Utilize a freezer, if possible, to freeze things you need to have on you around treatment.

Do not put the permethrin on too many times, it takes months for the scabies to go away, and post scabies can sometimes feel momentarily itchier than the vague constant itching of real scabies, but if you have a baseline (like I did) of how bad the scabies was, use that and stick to it no matter how much it makes you worry.

Its now february, I definitely no longer have it, I worried on and off a few times after my third treatment, contemplated doing it all again once more just to be safe, and I am glad i didn't. I have a little itchy eczema on my arm, but it has slowly been going down. My skin isn't exactly as smooth as it used to be. Definitely a tiny bit blotchier and there are some occasional bumps, but it is all gone now.

-DO NOT listen to the people who give crazy advice involving chemicals on this site. What could be more damaging to your skin than some of these crazy solutions.
-MAKE a fail safe plan that involves LEAVING your stuff and going away. Even if this is extremely inconvenient, the knowledge that THEY CANNOT LIVE away from you should help
-USE a baseline for your itchiness, and ignore post-scabies unless it clearly approaches that baseline.

And with that, I am out. Hope this helps.

Since: Nov 11

Beirut, Lebanon

#180 Feb 12, 2012
Hi all, I thought I'd write an update since I came to this forum after freaking out for a while. The OP was immeasurably helpful -thank you

1. I also overreacted when I had scabies. My doctor misdiagnosed it as allergic dermatitis, gave me prednisone, which made it worse when the prednisone was over. I did not have burrows, only bumps, which apparently can be the case if you shower and scrub regularly (which I always did).

2. The Permethrin worked. I apparently had scabies for a long, long time - I started feeling symptoms in July and didn't get the medicine until September. By that point I was taking so many benadryl every day that I was falling asleep at work. I have no primary care phsyician here so I just went with what the walk in clinic doctor said, which was allergic dermatitis, but she was wrong.

3. Scabies IS in fact microscopic but I read that if you see a bump with a brownish speck in it, that can be a mite. I sanitized my hand and a needle, and very carefully poked the little blister thing and excavated what looked like a speck of dirt. It was impossible to see what it was, but I have a macro lens for taking closeup shots and I got a photo, zoomed in on my computer, and saw it was a mite. I called my friend who is a pharmacist and ordered the permethrin.

4. BECAUSE, I think, I had it for so long, it didn't feel like it went away. I have sensitive skin and the permethrin did all sorts of other things to it. I continued to get bumps, especially in dry weather or after a shower, but my baseline for comparison was "am I feeling itchy enough to take benadryl? or some of the itch cream i was prescribed?" and the answer was, except for maybe two very dry days, always no.

5. I put the permethrin on once more to be safe, left my room and all my stuff bagged up, went to my parents house for a day, applied the stuff while my backpack of clothes was in the freezer, then left as soon as I showered in the morning. Then I went to NYC, stayed there for two more days, and returned to where I live now four days after. This was, I realize in retrospect, me being overly cautious. I never sprayed, bleached, or did anything.

The itching stayed for a while. Probably didn't go away fully until November. I still have some bumps. I now have a few patches of what look like eczema in the places that were itchiest in the past; I think applying the permethrin three times permanently damaged my skin, or maybe it was the scabies. But everything is very, very, very slowly getting back to normal.

My advice:

Make a fail safe plan that involves getting away from home for a few days to allow them to die off on their own. Don't use all these chemicals. Utilize a freezer, if possible, to freeze things you need to have on you around treatment.

Do not put the permethrin on too many times, it takes months for the scabies to go away, and post scabies can sometimes feel momentarily itchier than the vague constant itching of real scabies, but if you have a baseline (like I did) of how bad the scabies was, use that and stick to it no matter how much it makes you worry.

Its now february, I definitely no longer have it, I worried on and off a few times after my third treatment, contemplated doing it all again once more just to be safe, and I am glad i didn't. I have a little itchy eczema on my arm, but it has slowly been going down. My skin isn't exactly as smooth as it used to be. Definitely a tiny bit blotchier and there are some occasional bumps, but it is all gone now.

-DO NOT listen to the people who give crazy advice involving chemicals on this site. What could be more damaging to your skin than some of these crazy solutions.
-MAKE a fail safe plan that involves LEAVING your stuff and going away. Even if this is extremely inconvenient, the knowledge that THEY CANNOT LIVE away from you should help
-USE a baseline for your itchiness, and ignore post-scabies unless it clearly approaches that baseline.

And with that, I am out. Hope this helps.
Your Answer

Tarpon Springs, FL

#181 Apr 11, 2012
They are called Sarcoptic Mites. You MUST STEAM AND WASH EVERYTHING. Let me guess you have a cat,dog,or bird. Or some other type of domestic animal. Bites rash you can't explain. Been over to a shut ins house? That's how I go them. You MUST even steam the ceiling and walls. Or they will retreat there. Wait for the gas to clear and reinfect everything. Setting a bomb off makes it worse. They retreat to the ceiling where it triggers a breeding cycle. Scratching will cause them to spread also.

Your cure. Steam Everything and Nix
puzzled in tn

Lebanon, TN

#182 Apr 20, 2012
How can a person who is a shut in get scabies? My mother only sees 1 or 2 people occasionally & has no close physical contact.???
puzzled in tn

Lebanon, TN

#183 Apr 20, 2012
How can a person who is a shut in get scabies? My mother sees only 1 or 2 people occasionally & has no close contact.???

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