Crawly Girl

New York, NY

#1378 Apr 11, 2013
Faerie with Ooglies wrote:
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Look it up and you will get a profile of what this person gets out of being on this forum and ruining it for all of the genuine people who come here for help.
People with Narcissistic Personallity Disorder easily take on personas that are not part of their own "self' because they have not been able to develop a self. They use information that is told to them or experiences that they observe and pretend it is their idea or experience. They read other people's work and then use the words they read (often inappropriately) to portray a persona that seems intelligent.
They have an intense need for what is called Narcissistic SUPPLY. This words describes the good feeling they have when they get attention. The thing the Narcissist fear most is exposure.
With exposure and loss of their supply they quickly suffer from terrible depression because they have lost attention and also because they do not really know who they are.
They will desperately do whatever it takes to get supply from another area or another person.
This is the reason for the unfortunate person's creation of so many personas on this forum.
If it was not so sad for the new people coming here seeking help, it would be laughable.
Narcissists also use a method called GASLIGHTING. This means they take what was said or what happened in the past and change the story to make themselves appear right. Then present the story as truth.
They know what they are doing, they are not crazy, they are completely aware that what they are doing is wrong and hurtful.
THEY DON'T CARE.
A true definition of evil. But then, that word probably makes FRED feel important, so let's just use the word 'pathetic".
SORRY FRED BUT YUP,YUP, AND YUP.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1379 Apr 11, 2013
Crawly Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
OK FRED, LOTUS-FAN, MEL, MR. MULTIPLE PERSONALITY TIME TO FINALLY BUST YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE. I haven't been on this Scabies Forum in 6 months but I know you think you've contributed the most info to this whole forum wether it be FOX Project, Parasite Cleanses, the list goes on. And yes I've read all the threads you "contributed". Spent weeks reading them in fact. You present yourself as always on the cutting edge, all the while having absolute certainty each time you've found THE CURE, until you drop your current "cure" faster than last season Prada flats in search of your next intellectual attention fix. It doesn't matter to you who you've disillusioned, there's always a vulnerable, desperate newcomer looking for your quick and decisive "solutions."
You didn't even have Morgellons in your line of vision before post 276 of this thread...the post where I mentioned for the first time on this entire forum the very site you are quoting above, http://www.morgellons-research.org . You then began exploring Morgellons on this thread quietly for a few posts, but soon after my intital exchange with GhonE, but you appropriated the thread and started yelling again. I left TOPIX for the volume of info on Neumann's site, but I didn't expect your snout would prevent you from mentioning his info and giving him credit while you spent time trying to establish yourself as a Morgellons "authority".
Your post about Morgellons and silicon breast implants makes it seem like you've been entertaining ideas of Morgellons instead of Scabies for years. That's CATEGORICALLY FALSE. Why spend months on homeopathy for scabies then!

Ok enough I'll have to cool off, then come back and write what I originally intended to write, a brief report on my use of Borax as well as the last six months of my Lyme/Morgellons treatment (which intially-- as for many--I thought was Scabies, Mites, or Collembola!).
Feel better now?

Borax won't do anything for you if you have lyme/morgellons but it does do a nice job on your clothes.

You are basically reinforcing the point I'm trying to make here. You have morrgellons/lyme. Thanks for making that point too.

If you would like to find the things that will help you most for lyme/ morgellons then you'll need to look into Samento, Banderol, Teasel and Olive leaf extract. I read a lot to come to those conclusions. I also "lifted" information from other sites. Isn't the idea of the internet to have info readily available? This forum can only succeed by sharing information because without information what have you got? You've got a lot of people rubbing toxins on themselves and ingesting them too.

Hope you feel better soon, but that is very unlikely unless you go "lift" information from other sites.

Good luck in your recovery.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1380 Apr 11, 2013
CrawlyGirl wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Ghon E, I feel your pain. I too have finally figured out that I have Morgellons. I bought a pocket microscope and started looking at the tiny things I was pulling off my skin. They were not bugs but rather weird egg like things with black strange fibers seemingly surrounding and in some cases getting inside the eggs.
This was after several months of thinking I had mites. One fellow sufferer thought she had mites for three years before she figured out what it was. Many Morgellons sufferers are also afflicted with Lyme disease. Getting treated for Lyme, keeping the environment clean with a dry swiffer, vacuum whose bag you very often throw away, swabbing with bleach, and putting ionic air purifiers in each room can help symptoms get better. The chemtrails theory is controversial but then so is Morgellons. I think you're exactly right. People on this forum will think we are out of place here but they need to take the time to get a pocket scope and do some self diagnosis because the Morgellons fungus feels exactly like individual bugs with many legs taking steps on you. Good luck.
Bravo! CG.

Cleaning like this will only get your house clean, it will do very little to address the biological infection. The people who have lyme disease typically just use antibiotics forever but I haven't seen evidence of lymies freaking out about their environment. Morgellons is biological too. There is going to be the annual conference on morgellons by CHEF this coming weekend so maybe we could "lift" some information there.

Morgellons is not completely understood by anyone so calling it a fungus, nematode, bacteria or virus is misleading . Morgellons growth is more accurate. One big problem is the DNA variables, they are huge and changing faster than scientists can keep track of.Take into consideration that agrobacterium as well as borriela have been found in all morgellons test subjects. There are also 100 different strains of the lyme bacteria in the U.S. and half the people in europe test positive for one form or another but do not develop symptoms so it is generally considered that it is an overall overwhelming of the immune system, heavy metals,coinfections, etc. So symptoms are greatly varied.
A lot of people have these infections and live a normal life without even knowing they are infected.

Banderol, Samento, Teasel, olive leaf extract. I found all these and compared them to everything else people are using and found that, all things considered, they are the best course however the initial herx is quite disconcerting.
Crawly Girl

Danielson, CT

#1381 Apr 11, 2013
Either one lifts info or gives credit where credit is due. You use strategic use of links irresponsibly and when it shows your best angle. Many posters see thru it. If you are going to use links do it ethically.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1382 Apr 11, 2013
Crawly Girl wrote:
Either one lifts info or gives credit where credit is due. You use strategic use of links irresponsibly and when it shows your best angle. Many posters see thru it. If you are going to use links do it ethically.
Do you have a copy of this "link posting rules of ethics"?! whatever, my actual strategy is that some people would read but that hasn't been the case very much. Do you think this is some sort of competition? If this was a book then I would most certainly add a bibliography and if it was my personal blog i would feel the need to give credit. But this is an open forum and many people post here in the same way. I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV , I'm not an author either. Fred isn't my real name so for all intents and purposes I am fictitious, don't waste your time getting upset with what I write, if it sounds like nonsense to you. So putting that in perspective I can see that you do read some and can take charge of your own treatment, why then are you using borax on morgellons/lyme? The original borax cure came from Earthlink's "Ted" and he got it from some nuns who had scabies. He suggests tannic acid for morgellons, he never said drink borax for morgellons or lyme so what makes you think that's a good idea?
FRED

Denver, CO

#1383 Apr 11, 2013
Crawly Girl wrote:
Either one lifts info or gives credit where credit is due. You use strategic use of links irresponsibly and when it shows your best angle. Many posters see thru it. If you are going to use links do it ethically.
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20...

Since I'm not trying to trick anyone with "the fox project" thread anymore I don't have any place to put this interesting link about the abundance of foxes relative to lyme disease concentrations. This link comes from the poughkeepsiejournal and the story is by John Ferro, and I personally found it interesting.

One thing I would note is that I got the inspiration for the "fox project" thread from websites, like the one below, that were many in the U.K. that were getting cures using homeopathy. They were curing mange not morgellons and I posted this thread at a time when that is what I thought I had. I never made any connection about foxes and Lyme. So when everything else had failed it makes sense to me that this was worth investigating, it wasn't really some dastardly plot. The thing with Lyme is that you have to treat for a long time and the symptoms do go away but will return if you stop treatment, some say 3 years to treat.

http://www.nfws.org.uk/mange/Sarcoptic%20Mang...

I even read one account of a guy who had morgellons and when he moved from L.A. to Sacramento the morgellons went away but came back 5 years later.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1384 Apr 12, 2013
Rundown teacher wrote:
<quoted text>
Did the laser help a little or a lot? Going to try infrared sauna and am considering a hair removal laser. This helped a few others. Thx. Rundown teacher
The Infrared sauna is a really good idea . It helps to release toxins and activates the lymph system. The problem arises when too many toxins are released for the body to process. Then the high levels of toxins in your bloodstream actually reduce immune function and can cause you to get sicker. What you have to make sure of is that your detox pathways are working well. The main thing to focus on there is organ function , especially the liver. The Liver works very hard to process all the toxins that are inside us. Lecithin is a supplement that reinvigorate a damaged liver.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/517998-leci...

You also need good bile production to detox well and Taurine helps that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine

Teasel also helps to promote a healthy liver.

http://www.herbsoflight.com/teasel-root-dipsa...

Drinking lots of water will help but if your liver isn't functioning well the infrared sauna will create a toxin overload in your body that you definitely feel. Start out slow with it and consider using a few supplements, drink in moderation and eat unprocessed foods.

If you get a real big herx then you can back off but at the same time you know you are on the right track in getting that stuff out of you.
umathr

Baltimore, MD

#1385 Apr 12, 2013
I have used sulfur soap along with aloe vera gel. First apply the soap with a soft bristle bath brush to the effected areas let dry, do this two or three times a day. Once a day at bedtime apply the aloe gel. I think you will find that this combo works, I know I did. For some reason aloe gel kills scabies, I do not know why. This method is cheap. It is also safe but it is cheap enough for anyone to try.
MISSCIVILITY

Fort Myers, FL

#1386 Apr 12, 2013
Crawly Girl wrote:
<quoted text>
OK FRED, LOTUS-FAN, MEL, MR. MULTIPLE PERSONALITY TIME TO FINALLY BUST YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE. I haven't been on this Scabies Forum in 6 months but I know you think you've contributed the most info to this whole forum wether it be FOX Project, Parasite Cleanses, the list goes on. And yes I've read all the threads you "contributed". Spent weeks reading them in fact. You present yourself as always on the cutting edge, all the while having absolute certainty each time you've found THE CURE, until you drop your current "cure" faster than last season Prada flats in search of your next intellectual attention fix. It doesn't matter to you who you've disillusioned, there's always a vulnerable, desperate newcomer looking for your quick and decisive "solutions."
You didn't even have Morgellons in your line of vision before post 276 of this thread...the post where I mentioned for the first time on this entire forum the very site you are quoting above, http://www.morgellons-research.org . You then began exploring Morgellons on this thread quietly for a few posts, but soon after my intital exchange with GhonE, but you appropriated the thread and started yelling again. I left TOPIX for the volume of info on Neumann's site, but I didn't expect your snout would prevent you from mentioning his info and giving him credit while you spent time trying to establish yourself as a Morgellons "authority".
Your post about Morgellons and silicon breast implants makes it seem like you've been entertaining ideas of Morgellons instead of Scabies for years. That's CATEGORICALLY FALSE. Why spend months on homeopathy for scabies then!
Why is it so dishonest? Because you use your ability to write and research to champion long-term EXPENSIVE lines of inquiry and treatment with unequivocal certainty. "CURES" from which you later back away once you find the next grist for your glory and attention mill. Endorsing $3000 treatment cabins as being ESSENTIAL to getting well when you have no authority to do so? Claiming that ONE DR. is the only one in the country to see? ELITIST AND GETTING KICKBACKS MUCH? And what about the desperate soul who spends THEIR LAST $3000 bucks on this treatment and doesn't get well. NO GUILT FRED RIGHT? They "have to read for themselves" RIGHT?
I know you're a whore for lines of inquiry that make you look intellectually evolved in the eyes of others. What's the point of leading an exciting pilgrimmage of followers who only end up walking off a cliff to failure Just to repeat it with new victims?
You have been lifting information from http://www.morgellons-research.org/ for a long while on this thread, mysteriously NOT offering copious numbers of your many links. And why not?
BECAUSE THAT SITE IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MORGELLONS AND TREATMENT OPTIONS AND YOU DIDN"T WANT TO REVEAL THE SOURCE OF ALL YOUR "EXPERTISE".
Go ahead, be the abusive and arrogant narcissist and sociopath that you are, posting under different identities. Your snide and sneering abuse of other sick people (even when they politely tell you to stop because your posts actually cause them stress and anxiety when they are desperate for help) make me NAUSEOUS.
Without kindness nothing else matters. YOU HAVE NO SOUL. To everyone else I say GO TO MARC NEUMANN'S SITE FOR YOURSELF. You don't need this narcissist poster! AND IF YOU ARE NEW HERE, DON'T BE SEDUCED BY THIS IDIOT FRED.
Ok enough I'll have to cool off, then come back and write what I originally intended to write, a brief report on my use of Borax as well as the last six months of my Lyme/Morgellons treatment (which intially-- as for many--I thought was Scabies, Mites, or Collembola!).
One could make these points without replicating Fred's venom - and help to improve the spirit and raise the informational tone of this site.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1387 Apr 12, 2013
MISSCIVILITY wrote:
<quoted text> One could make these points without replicating Fred's venom - and help to improve the spirit and raise the informational tone of this site.
so where is your info?
VSS

Hollywood, FL

#1388 Apr 12, 2013
FRED wrote:
<quoted text>
so where is your info?
okay, well you are back....

Let me remind you that this is a scabies forum, and that your attitue towards this thread is somewhat distorted. This cure, from Ted from the earthclinic website, was originally for his dog, for demodex mites. It is not for morgellons.

Although I find your morgellons information interesting, please keep in mind that there are people out there who still have mites and not your so-called morgellons. Like it or not, Missy Denver, this is a reality that you cannot grasp.

I try not to post regarding all the nonsense on this forum, the lengthy posts by some of our colorful posters out there, but when I see YOU post, I play close attention, because, you have and still are posting some incorrect information.

Ted from earthclinic never got the borax cure from nuns. He discovered it himself. He has a clinical background and came upon this for his DOG with demodex mites.

And since this is a scabies forum and a completely different mite than demodex, the cure was posted here for others to try. The borax does work, and the hydrogen peroxide is a great penetrant and works very well.

Taking your herbs and supplements helps the immune system, but it DOESN'T CURE. It only helps.

You need toxic chemicals to cure scabies. Taking herbs and supplements and homeopathy doesn't cure scabies.
FRED

Denver, CO

#1389 Apr 12, 2013
VSS wrote:
<quoted text>
okay, well you are back....
Let me remind you that this is a scabies forum, and that your attitue towards this thread is somewhat distorted. This cure, from Ted from the earthclinic website, was originally for his dog, for demodex mites. It is not for morgellons.
Although I find your morgellons information interesting, please keep in mind that there are people out there who still have mites and not your so-called morgellons. Like it or not, Missy Denver, this is a reality that you cannot grasp.
I try not to post regarding all the nonsense on this forum, the lengthy posts by some of our colorful posters out there, but when I see YOU post, I play close attention, because, you have and still are posting some incorrect information.
Ted from earthclinic never got the borax cure from nuns. He discovered it himself. He has a clinical background and came upon this for his DOG with demodex mites.
And since this is a scabies forum and a completely different mite than demodex, the cure was posted here for others to try. The borax does work, and the hydrogen peroxide is a great penetrant and works very well.
Taking your herbs and supplements helps the immune system, but it DOESN'T CURE. It only helps.
You need toxic chemicals to cure scabies. Taking herbs and supplements and homeopathy doesn't cure scabies.
Personally I think you've had one too many "toxic chemicals".

The problem is not as simple as "kill mites with poisons" weather you have mites or not. You need to understand the other factors and working relationships of the body. I hope that someday you will and then you will understand that I am spot on in being relevant here. However your consistent track record of never going any deeper than the superficial obvious conclusion makes me think that you will be one of the casualties.

Have a nice weekend.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#1390 Apr 12, 2013
MISSCIVILITY wrote:
<quoted text> One could make these points without replicating Fred's venom - and help to improve the spirit and raise the informational tone of this site.
YES PLEASE!

I wish everyone would stop trashing each other on this site.... everyone has an experience and a part of the solution.

Despite Fred's confrontational tone, he does have some interesting points, and some worthy advice about supplements and diet. I totally believe in detoxing, herbals, saunas etc. But I'm also willing to take horse meds. I don't have morgellons, although I believe people who say they have it.

I think everyone needs to find the path out of this hell that's right for them, and respect other people's path. Share what's helpful, not what you hate about the other person's path.
The Sick Pelican

Myrtle Beach, SC

#1391 Apr 13, 2013
Go find a hot tub and submerge your scalp and skin. You will see bubbles come out of the skin. If you watch carefully, you will see black specks come out of your skin into the water. These are the dead ones. Use coconut oil in your ears and nose. Also you can get drops at Tractor Supply for dogs for ear mites and they will kill them in your ears. I break into the nearest hotel hot tub several times a day to alleviate my symptoms. I don't think I can get the bathtub hot enough at home to have the same result. I'm going to do the ivermectin for internal, borax and ACV as shown on curezone. Good luck
FRED

Denver, CO

#1392 Apr 14, 2013
The Hungry Ghosts wrote:
<quoted text>
YES PLEASE!
I wish everyone would stop trashing each other on this site.... everyone has an experience and a part of the solution.
Despite Fred's confrontational tone, he does have some interesting points, and some worthy advice about supplements and diet. I totally believe in detoxing, herbals, saunas etc. But I'm also willing to take horse meds. I don't have morgellons, although I believe people who say they have it.
I think everyone needs to find the path out of this hell that's right for them, and respect other people's path. Share what's helpful, not what you hate about the other person's path.
Doesn't anyone who likes to talk about "FRED" have anything meaningful to add here other than the Ivermectin and perm over and over and over again?
Many of these posters like "Miss Civility" are actually "Faerie with ooglies" or someone from that crowd. They don't understand what's really going on and haven't made any real progress in being healthy again and somehow they think it's meaningful to criticize what I write when they don't even take the time to understand what I'm saying and are still suffering themselves.

It's not about finding a path that's right for you otherwise medicines would be made personally for individuals, it's about actually understanding what you are dealing with. The first step is getting a good diagnosis instead of trying to force your symptoms into a concept like "scabies" because it is easy to understand.

I would start with a skin scraping. What you need to consider is that Yes you could have had mites at one point but if you have been doing this for a good long while then you probably already killed those. Mites are vectors of transmission for a variety of bacteria, protazoa, nematodes , etc. These infections that mites pass to hosts when they have a mite infection also show symptoms very similar to the skin symptoms that scabies give. So it's easy to be confused there.

I know for a fact by there own admission that "Persistence" "Crawly Girl" and myself came to the realization that they had Lyme/Morgellons after being on this forum a long time and thinking they had scabies. I also know from carefully reading posts and listening to people describe symptoms that many more actually have something that isn't or no longeer is a "mite infection".
Crawly Girl

New York, NY

#1394 Apr 14, 2013
My "alternative protocol": Borax: FOOD Grade, I buy mine from Mountain Rose Herbs. 1/8 teaspoon in a liter of water sipped throughout the day. It tastes yucky but it makes the body more alkaline which makes it inhospitable to pathogens. I did this for 30 days, took a month off, did it another 30 days. I also use 20 Mule Team Borax in my laundry along with a scoop of Oxyclean and a cup of Hydrogen Peroxide. Skin protocol: I use Marc Neumann's DSP soap, cream and gel.

http://www.s-m-g.org/dsp/

He developed this to treat his own symptoms and though it is not a "CURE" these products for me (and my family who caught the scourge from me) drastically minimize if not eradicate crawling, itching, "biting", bumps, and etc. The products have meant I can go out in public without looking like I have a disease. Yes they cost money, no they're not expensive, yes they control symptoms and prevent new ones, no they are not a cure and if you stop using the products the symptoms come back because THE PROBLEM IS NOT A SKIN DISEASE IT IS SYSTEMIC. Be advised these products are not for scabies, they are for "Morgellons".

Good luck all. Not feeling well enough to hang out here much but I hope I've "given something back" in sharing my road to wellness, which believe me, is not a short road and I have a ways to go....
Crawly Girl

New York, NY

#1395 Apr 14, 2013
Oops forgot the rest of my environment protocol: I use a Swiffer daily, vacuum twice a week, dust twice a week, and put on a mask and open the windows and use diluted bleach over everything. I spray my computer (because the heat and electricity attracts the organism) with lemon oil and alcohol. I use an air purifier beacuse the tiny fibers are airborne. I Also wear shoes at all times because the heavier fibers fall to the floor (Havaianas flip flops I drop in a pail of bleach solution to clean every few days). I wear 100% Polyester satin Victorias Secret PJs whenever I'm home because the fibers don't imbed in non cellulose fabrics. Think that's about it. There are a ton of great ideas out there for environment and treatment, the tough part is having the money for them. The ones I've listed is about all I can afford now and I've made the executive decision that for me they are the most important. PEACE.

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#1396 Apr 14, 2013
fightingheretoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi 'hippier' can!:) you made me giggle! Yeah! I'm not sure the peroxide helped all that much for me... I think drinking the borax water did it... but I also took olive leaf extract! It is one of the herbs I always have handy when I think I need it. I also did the ACV and increased my salt intake. I made a concoction with VC, Salacilyic acid and aloe vera gel....for my skin.
Yes, I am still free. Thankfully! Just trying to get the toxic stuff out of my body still. I also took & still take oil of oregano in water. I like the drops better than taking the caps.
My skin feels like a baby's butt now and am happily enjoying my life - working again at full tilt boogie!:)
anyway ... just needed to ck in and now I've got to post on a comment of freds ..
Hi Fighting! Such good news! I think you're right about the borax, but I felt it was hurting my kidneys after several months. Crawly said he/she used some food gradeborax from Mountain Herbs (not sure about the name) that he/she used 1/8 tsp in a litre of water, one month on, one off. Sounds a possiblity for me. I sometimes use Alka Seltzer tabs with borax in glycerin, but I like your idea of using AS & borax with aloe instead. The aloe has some effect. Right now, I'm mixing white thymol oil with avocado oil and put it all over. I haven't found the olive leaf extract - need to get to a particular health food store that's out of my way. I'm doing so much better, but I'm looking for an internal help. The food grade borax may be it. What did you do about the car?
lala

Perth, Australia

#1397 Apr 14, 2013
Is anyone else experiencing little black spots coming out of the skin? I've tried everything and it seems this is incurable. I'm beside myself and I can't take this anymore. There all over my body. Currently I'm taking ivermectin horse paste for 2 days and then off for 2 days. It had been about a month since I used the 5% cream so I used it again on the weekend and the itching stop for about a day however these little black dots are still there. They used to come out when I put oil on my skin and sat out in the sun and I could literally wipe them off with tissues there seems to be 1000 of them on my body filling every pore. I think I've had scabies for about 8 months now however due to my living circumstances I found it hard to treat and could only really wash 24/7 and use the cream. Please someone tell me some good news.. Do you think I'm on my way to getting better? I'm heading to the dr today for some antidepressants (seems there the only thing they prescribe these days).

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#1398 Apr 15, 2013
FRED wrote:
<quoted text>
Doesn't anyone who likes to talk about "FRED" have anything meaningful to add here other than the Ivermectin and perm over and over and over again?
Many of these posters like "Miss Civility" are actually "Faerie with ooglies" or someone from that crowd. They don't understand what's really going on and haven't made any real progress in being healthy again and somehow they think it's meaningful to criticize what I write when they don't even take the time to understand what I'm saying and are still suffering themselves.
It's not about finding a path that's right for you otherwise medicines would be made personally for individuals, it's about actually understanding what you are dealing with. The first step is getting a good diagnosis instead of trying to force your symptoms into a concept like "scabies" because it is easy to understand.
Fred, it's not easy to understand you because you're constantly putting people down, calling them morons, accusing them of being people they aren't. Do you understand that your bad attitude completely ruins your message?

I know all about morgellons, diet, herbals, alt medicine of all kinds. I believe you. But I also think that people are indeed experiencing mite infections. And yes, secondary infections do come into play, but running around the board under multiple aliases screaming that people are idiots and they MUST have morgellons is not helpful to them, or and it does your advice no justice.

Just tone it down. Don't accuse people of posting under a different names and then do that yourself.- it's just not congruent. Langolliers and UK2 are not the same person - they have a totally different writing style. Faerie is not Miss Civility, and I am not posting as anyone else either. If someone decides to embrace diet and herbals as a way to health, then great, but fighting with everyone on the board is not the way to convince them to do it.

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