Poisoning from Lysol, Permethrin, Arm...

Poisoning from Lysol, Permethrin, Arm & Hammmer...?

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Since: Dec 09

Pisgah, AL

#1 Dec 13, 2009
Hi all. My fiance and I have been reading through this forum for past week or two, after we came out to her papas home to help with careproviding after his former careprovider was discovered lying, stealing and doing other inappropriate things.
When we got here we discovered he had a rash, but did not realize it was scabies until a couple weeks later.
Given the toxicity of medications like permethrin and others we tried using in spray and oil rubbed on to skin form of need leaf oil, tea tree oil, and past week arm and hammer laundry detergent mixed with water in a spray bottle sprayed onto our skin, clothing, bedding and all around.

The neem and tea trea oil did not seem to do anything positive. Scabies continued to persist on him and spread now to my fiance and myself.
The arm & hammer laundry detergent seemed to stop the itching and maybe slow down or kill the scabies by the next day of first application.
Papas skin seems to be drying up and looking a bit better, a few new patches of scabies possibly present but generally looking a bit better. Hard to know as he is so covered with scabs and red rash.
My fiance however has developed quite a rash and her skin seems to have burned from the arm and hammer use. Though mine is mostly fine in sense of I noticed no red eroded skin like hers which has become raw in places like under her breasts, armpits, inner thighs near groin, etc..
The arm & hammer seems to help dry out or deter the scabies some at least, but it has made my fiance so raw and exposed in areas that it hurts and is risk of infection.

She is also very chemically sensitive, and we are concerned about using permethrin due to its toxicity, or another medication that she was prescribed that actually warns not to use it unless "less toxic med like permethrin" is used first. But permethrin is poisonous to humans already, and the lists of reactions from both permethrin and even stronger apparently the other medication it says on its label are death, seizure, brain problems, stroke, etc..
Which is worse than scabies of course.

We gave her papa and his livein careprovider permethrin, which seemed to work some, though there still seem to be some scabies on them she says.
And my fiance is considering using permethrin tomorrow, though we are both concerned about her using such poisonous chemicals given also she has myalgic Encephalomyelitis, which among many challenges includes chemical and neurological sensitivities, especially to toxins and poisons.

His careprovider has been up alot during the night scratching him as well as doing lots of laundry, though i think the scratching even with a backscratcher is probably a bad idea as it will likely spread the scabies and infect him.?

We are also using it to wash all our laundy, then drying on high heat two to three times befor removing from dryer.

I have not used permethrin, just arm and hammer laundry detergent puffed all around room, in bed, on clothes and sprayed all over my body, head, everywhere.
As well as tea tree and neem oil, and hydrogen peroxide.

I also sprayed lysol on my bed and on my skin about two or three days ago.
However yesterday, maybe a tad earlier, I started feeling ill, and by last night through the night and today have been feeling sicker, weak, upset stomach like I need to vomit, suddenly weak legs, mentally very weird / dazed / like my mind is going crazy a bit. Very disconcerting.

Anyone else have issues with using lysol or arm and hammer? Or other things mentioned?

This is so stressful for everyone. And I am really concerned that my fiance not get poisioned and have major problems or die from using the permethrin or other more toxic medication which I forgot name of.

Since: Dec 09

Pisgah, AL

#2 Dec 13, 2009
Lindane is the medication prescribed to my fiance' even though she has not yet used permethrin. We are very concerned about using Lindane given its higher human toxicity than even permethrin.

Since: Dec 09

Pisgah, AL

#3 Dec 13, 2009
Wikipedia article on Permethrin -
Toxicology and safety
Permethrin is extremely toxic to fish. Extreme care must be taken when using products containing permethrin near water sources. Permethrin is also highly toxic to cats.[7] Flea and tick repellent formulas intended (and labeled) for dogs may contain permethrin and cause feline permethrin toxicosis in cats.
Permethrin is classified by the US EPA a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors.[8] Carcinogenic action in nasal mucosal cells for inhalation exposure is suspected due to observed genotoxicity in human tissue samples, and in rat livers the evidence of increased preneoplastic lesions lends concern over oral exposure.[9][10]
Recent studies have linked permethrin exposure to Parkinson's disease, including very small (per kg.) exposures.[11][12]
The use of the substance has been restricted by the US government, although such restriction is outdated now [13]

Since: Dec 09

Pisgah, AL

#4 Dec 13, 2009
Lindance information from a Wikipedia page on Lindane -
Lindane -
Human health effects
The EPA and WHO both classify lindane as "moderately" acutely toxic. It has an oral LD50 of 88 mg/kg in rats and a dermal LD50 of 1000 mg/kg. Most of the adverse human health effects reported for lindane have been related to agricultural uses and chronic, occupational exposure of seed treatment workers.[21]
Exposure to large amounts of lindane can harm the nervous system, producing a range of symptoms from headache and dizziness to seizures, convulsions and more rarely death.[4][22] The most common side effects associated with the use of lindane medications are burning sensations, itching, dryness and rash.[23] Lindane has not been shown to affect the immune system in humans and, it is not considered to be genotoxic.[4] Prenatal exposure to β-HCH, an isomer of lindane and production byproduct, has been associated with altered thyroid hormone levels and could affect brain development.[24]
Cancer risk
Based primarily on evidence from animal studies, most evaluations of the carcinogenicity of lindane have concluded that lindane may cause cancer. In 1987, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) classified lindane as a group 2B "possible" human carcinogen,[25] and in 2001 the EPA concluded there was “suggestive evidence of carcinogenicity, but not sufficient to assess human carcinogenic potential.”[26] The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services determined that all isomers of hexachlorocyclohexane, including lindane, "may reasonably be anticipated to cause cancer in humans,"[4] however the World Health Organization concluded in 2004 that “lindane is not likely to pose a carcinogenic risk to humans.”[27]
Adverse reactions to lindane pharmaceuticals
A variety of adverse reactions to lindane pharmaceuticals have been reported, ranging from skin irritation to seizures to, in rare instances, death. While serious effects are rare and have most often resulted from misuse, adverse reactions have occurred when used properly.[12][28][29][30] The FDA therefore requires a so-called black box warning on lindane products, which explains the risks of lindane products and its proper use.[23][31]
The black box warning emphasizes that lindane should not be used on premature infants and individuals with known uncontrolled seizure disorders, and should be used with caution in infants, children, the elderly, and individuals with other skin conditions (e.g., dermatitis, psoriasis) and people who weigh less than 110 lbs (50 kg) as they may be at risk of serious neurotoxicity.[28][29]
Vann from Tennessee

United States

#6 Dec 13, 2009
>>and past week arm and hammer laundry detergent
mixed with water in a spray bottle sprayed onto our sk
in, clothing, bedding and all around.

You didn't say how much A&H detergent to water your mix was. You might have mixed in too much detergent in your spray bottle.
They gang here recommends 2 tablespoons of ARM & HAMMER® Detergent dissolved in 1 quart of warm water.
( only 1 cup per tub of water )

Also spray detergent into your bedding????? IMO, not a good idea. You are laying in that for 8 hours. The skin cannot take too much abuse.

Now please tell us how many tablespoons of detergent did you mix into your water per quart.

PS) I really like the NON-TOXIC CedarCide to kill all the bugs in bedding and spray it on myself. IT WORKS!!
Also makes your skin silky smooth.
"Best Yet" Cedarcide spray bottle


Since: Dec 09

Pisgah, AL

#7 Dec 14, 2009
Thanks Vann. Well, we have been using about 1 scooperfull, sometimes a bit less, of the scoop included in the arm and hammer laundry detergent box to a spray bottle containing about 10 ounces of water.
Sounds like I overshot the amount of Arm & Hammer to use! Just want the buggers dead!
Yeah, i think the sleeping in arm and hammer powder in my bed and on myself is damaging my brain and body, though for some reason i do not have the skin burns that my fiance developed.

Thanks for the link.

I just read somethign about grapefruit juice possibly being beneficial to drink to repel scabies mites.? Any experience with that?

Since: Nov 09

Milford, PA

#9 Dec 14, 2009
OhNo!, Too much A&H mix in the bed! I just wash the bedding with it & lemon ammonia, then just spray the bedding lightly with Windex, Alcohol, or lysol, just before taking my A&H hot bath, so it will dry before retiring.

If you don't have access to Cedarside yet, I suggest now you all take a bath in plain baking soda, it will be refreshing, & rejuvenate the skin (like a newborn baby), especially your fiance, Then start your treatments.
Vann from Tennessee

United States

#10 Dec 14, 2009
For the record & my notes, how much baking soda per bath tub do you recommend?

Do you agree with these mixtures from my notes?
* Hair- 1/2 teaspoon per cup of water, dumped on the head , lathered let dry no itches all day , my hair looks great and feels like new ,, bumps are fading , and head hasent itched in days

Spray: 1 cup per gallon, do ceiling, walls, floors, shoes, combs, brushes car, in the vents & they are gone,

Solution: 4 tablespoons of ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda dissolved in 1 quart of warm water.

Paste:3 parts of ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda and 1 part of water, mixed.

Laundry: 1/2 cup in the rinse cycle

Recipe: Solution to wipe walls & floors with Water, Fabuloso, Baking Soda, Half a bottle of alcohol


Since: Nov 09

Milford, PA

#11 Dec 14, 2009
I used a standard size box 16oz (1lb) of genereic baking soda in a hot bath the other night, and I never felt so good! My skin was like a baby, I lost the chills, & my body was so relaxed, lost all it's tension, I could have gone right off to sleep, but I was on my way out to a club, and never had the chills all night, even though it was cold out, and cold there. I actually felt temporarily cured of this plague!

There are recommendations on the internet if you search, I think they say 1/2-1cup or 8 ounces.
Vann from Tennessee

United States

#12 Dec 14, 2009
Great suggestion and I think I will add that to my regime. My regime so far:
1) Spray Cedarcide over myself daily
2) 3 times a week while at the gym, shower with sulfur soap
3) Nightly soak in bath using 1 capful of concentrated liquid A&H Laundry Detergent Free of Perfume and Dye
4) rotating my daily change of clothing to wear the oldest washed clothes from the bottom of the stack. Any live scabies from the wash will starve by the time I wear my clothes. I have a 2 week or more rotation
5) Spray bedding every morning with lysol disinfectant
I will rotate daily soaking between the A&H laundry soap & the baking soda per your suggestion. I'll start with the 1-cup mix to see how it goes.


Spring Valley, NY

#13 Dec 14, 2009
oceansea wrote:
Lindane is the medication prescribed to my fiance' even though she has not yet used permethrin. We are very concerned about using Lindane given its higher human toxicity than even permethrin.
Perm is much safer than Lindane. But make sure your doctor is aware of all the other health issues before using anything.

Waterloo, Canada

#14 Dec 14, 2009
For clarity, when you are saying arm and hammer baking soda do you mean launrdy detergent version or plain baking soda?
Where do you get sulfer soap?

What does using baking soda or arm and hammer laundry detergent actually do? Does it kill all stages of scabies or just make skin soft when used appropriately?

I don't feel comfortable using lysol again as it felt pretty harmful to me.

Since: Nov 09

Milford, PA

#15 Dec 14, 2009
oceansea wrote:
For clarity, when you are saying arm and hammer baking soda do you mean launrdy detergent version or plain baking soda?
Where do you get sulfer soap?
What does using baking soda or arm and hammer laundry detergent actually do? Does it kill all stages of scabies or just make skin soft when used appropriately?
I don't feel comfortable using lysol again as it felt pretty harmful to me.
oceansea. Regular generic, or A&H, baking soda treatment, to heal, & soothe the skin (it might be a cure, I don't know? I haven't used it daily? but it's the best my skin, & body ever felt when I did it) I bathe every night usually in A&H, detergent, "Fresh Scent" or unscented, they both keep the crawling, & biting away, as long as my bedding is not compromised.

I use this 10% sulfur soap, when I want to take a shower, it's easy on the skin, and don't smell bad (like matches, or gunpowder) and it gives me the SAME RESULTS!


Here's a helpful link, if it's really just scabies:

Since: Dec 09

Location hidden

#16 Dec 14, 2009

get yourself a pvc zipped mattress cover and zipped your bed up. I don't sleep on bedsheets anymore. I just sleep on the pvc cover. When i wake up, i spray the bed with borax + alcohol and leave it to dry while i go to work.

I spray everything even my mobile phone. Sometimes i spray the mobile phone and put it in a ziplock bag so i have a pieace of mind that they are not going into my ears or face. I would like to think of the mites suffocating.

I wear rubber flip flops around the house. I have 4 pairs and i change them alternate days..i will soak my rubber flipflops in borax and alcohol overnight, leave it to dry while i wear another one. Once its dry i put it in a ziplock bag so when i need to wear them, i take them out and the other ones got soaked.

Perm & Lindane is toxic and also mites can build a resistance to it..i know that cos it doesnt even work on me anymore..my mites are stronger than Lindane now. So i use Sulfur as the mites cannot build up a resistance with sulfur.

Hope all this helps.

PS : I don't sleep on pillows anymore too.

Sun City, FL

#17 Dec 14, 2009
Insecticides, Acaricides, and Repellents
This chapter discusses insecticides, acaricides, and repellents that have toxico- logic characteristics distinct from the insecticides discussed in previous chap- ters. Pesticides reviewed include: alkyl phthalates, benzyl benzoate, borates, chlordimeform, chlorobenzilate, cyhexatin, diethyltoluamide, fluorides, haloaromatic urea compounds, methoprene, propargite, pyrethroids, and sulfur.
Dimethyl phthalate has been widely used as an insect repellent applied directly to the skin. Dibutylphthalate is impregnated into fabric for the same purpose. It is more resistant to laundering than dimethyl phthalate.
Dimethyl phthalate is strongly irritating to the eyes and mucous membranes. It has caused little or no irritation when applied to skin,and dermal absorption is apparently minimal. It has not caused sensitization.Tests in rodents have indicated low systemic toxicity, but large ingested doses cause gastrointestinal irritation, central nervous system depression, coma, and hypotension.
No antidote is available. Supportive measures (hydration, oxygen if needed) are probably adequate to manage all but the most severe poisonings.
Incorporated into lotions and ointments,this agent has been used for many years in veterinary and human medicine against mites and lice. Apart from occasional cases of skin irritation, adverse effects have been few.The efficiency
of skin absorption is not known. Absorbed benzyl benzoate is rapidly biotransformed to hippuric acid which is excreted in the urine.When given in large doses to laboratory animals, benzyl benzoate causes excitement, incoordi- nation, paralysis of the limbs, convulsions, respiratory paralysis, and death. No human poisonings have been reported.
1. Skin decontamination. If significant irritant effect appears, medications should be discontinued and the skin cleansed with soap and water. Eye con- tamination should be treated by prolonged flushing with clean water or saline.
2. Gastrointestinal decontamination. If a potentially toxic amount has been swallowed and retained and the patient is seen soon after exposure, gastrointes- tinal decontamination should be considered as outlined in Chapter 2.
3. Seizures. If seizures occur, control may require anticonvulsant medication as outlined in Chapter 2.

Sun City, FL

#18 Dec 14, 2009
Boric acid is formulated as tablets and powder to kill larvae in livestock confinementareasandcockroaches ,ants,andotherinsectsinresiden ces.Rarely, solutions are sprayed as a nonselective herbicide.
Boric acid powders and pellets scattered on the floors of homes do present a hazard to children.Their frequent use for roach control increases access for ingestion. A series of 784 patients has been described with no fatalities and minimum toxicity. Only 12% of these patients had symptoms of toxicity, mostly to the gastrointestinal tract.1 However, there have been some recent reports of fatal poisonings,2,3 and a great many poisonings of newborns which occurred in the 1950s and 1960s often ended in death.4,5 Historically, many poisonings have resulted from injudicious uses in human medicine aimed at suppressing bacterial growth, such as compresses for burns, powders for diaper rash, and irrigation solutions.6,7 With the increased use of boric acid for roach control, suicidal or accidental ingestion is still likely to occur.3,7
Borax dust is moderately irritating to skin.Inhaled dust caused irritation of the respiratory tract among workers in a borax plant. Symptoms included nasal irritation, mucous membrane dryness, cough, shortness of breath, and chest tightness.8,9
When determining toxicity to boric acid from ingestion, it is important to distinguish between acute and chronic exposure. Chronic ingestion is more likely to cause significant toxicity than acute exposure.1,2 Borates are well ab- sorbed by the gut and by abraded or burned skin, but not by intact skin.6 The kidney efficiently excretes them.The residence half-life in humans averages 13 hours, in a range of 4-28 hours.1

Sun City, FL

#19 Dec 14, 2009
The gastrointestinal tract, skin, vascular system, and brain are the principal organs and tissues effected. Nausea, persistent vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea reflect a toxic gastroenteritis.1,2,7 Lethargy and headache may occur, but are more infrequent.1 In severe poisonings, a beefy red skin rash, most often affecting palms, soles, buttocks, and scrotum, has been described. It has been characterized as a “boiled lobster appearance.” The intense erythema is fol- lowed by extensive exfoliation.2,5,10 This may be difficult to distinguish from staphylcoccal scalded skin syndrome.10
Headache, weakness, lethargy, restlessness, and tremors may occur, but are less frequent than gastrointestinal effects.1 Seven infants who were exposed to a mixture of borax and honey on their pacifiers developed seizures.11 Uncon- sciousness and respiratory depression signify life-threatening brain injury. Cy- anosis, weak pulse, hypotension, and cold clammy skin indicate shock, which is sometimes the cause of death in borate poisoning.2,3,7
Acute renal failure (oliguria or anuria) may be a consequence of shock, of direct toxic action on renal tubule cells, or both. It occurs in severe borate poisoning.2,3,5,10 Metabolic acidosis may be a consequence of the acid itself, of seizure activity, or of metabolic derangements.2 Fever is sometimes present in the absence of infection.
Confirmation of Poisoning
Borate can be measured in serum by colorimetric methods, as well by high-temperature atomic spectrometric methods. Urine borate concentrations in non-exposed individuals are in the range of 0.004-.66 mg/dL. Normal se- rum levels range up to 0.2 mg/dL in adults, and in children to 0.125 mg/dL.7 Levels reported in toxic incidents have varied widely, and it is felt that serum levels are of little use in guiding therapy.1
1. Skin decontamination. Wash skin with soap and water as outlined in Chapter 2. Eye contamination should be removed by prolonged flushing of the eye with copious amounts of clean water or saline. If irritation persists, special- ized medical treatment should be obtained.
2. Gastrointestinal decontamination. In acute poisonings, if a large amount
has been ingested and the patient is seen within one hour of exposure, gas- trointestinal decontamination should be considered as outlined in Chapter 2. It is important to keep in mind that vomiting and diarrhea are common, and severe poisoning may be associated with seizures.Therefore induction of eme- sis by syrup of ipecac is probably contraindicated in these exposures. Catharsis is not indicated if diarrhea is present.

Sun City, FL

#20 Dec 14, 2009
PYRETHROIDS (permithrin)

These modern synthetic insecticides are similar chemically to natural pyre- thrins, but modified to increase stability in the natural environment.They are now widely used in agriculture, in homes and gardens, and for treatment of ectoparasitic disease.
Pyrethroids are formulated as emulsifiable concentrates, wettable powders, granules, and concentrates for ultra low volume application.They may be com- bined with additional pesticides (sometimes highly toxic) in the technical product or tank-mixed with other pesticides at the time of application.AASTAR (dis- continued 1992), for instance, was a combination of flucythrinate and phorate. Phorate is a highly toxic organophosphate. Nix and Elimite are permethrin creams applied to control human ectoparasites.
Certain pyrethroids exhibit striking neurotoxicity in laboratory animals when administered by intravenous injection,and some are toxic by the oral route.How- ever,systemic toxicity by inhalation and dermal absorption is low.Although lim- ited absorption may account for the low toxicity of some pyrethroids, rapid biodegradation by mammalian liver enzymes (ester hydrolysis and oxidation) is probably the major factor responsible for this phenomenon.34 Most pyrethroid metabolites are promptly excreted, at least in part, by the kidney.
The most severe, although more uncommon, toxicity is to the central ner- vous system. Seizures have been reported in severe cases of pyrethroid intoxica- tion. Of 573 cases reviewed in China, there were 51 cases with disturbed consciousness and 34 cases with seizures. Of those, only 5 were from occupa- tional exposure.35 Seizures are more common with exposure to the more toxic cyano-pyrethroids, which include fenvalerate, flucythrinate, cypermethrin, deltapermethrin, and fluvalinate.34 There are no reports in the literature of sei- zures in humans from exposure to permethrin.
Apart from central nervous system toxicity, some pyrethroids do cause dis- tressing paresthesias when liquid or volatilized materials contact human skin. Again, these symptoms are more common with exposure to the pyrethroids whose structures include cyano-groups.34 Sensations are described as stinging, burning, itching, and tingling, progressing to numbness.35, 36,37 The skin of the face seems to be most commonly affected, but the face, hands, forearms, and neck are sometimes involved. Sweating, exposure to sun or heat, and applica-

Sun City, FL

#21 Dec 14, 2009
tion of water enhance the disagreeable sensations.Sometimes the effect is noted within minutes of exposure, but a 1-2 hour delay in appearance of symptoms is more common.36, 37 Sensations rarely persist more than 24 hours. Little or no inflammatory reaction is apparent where the paresthesia are reported; the effect is presumed to result from pyrethroid contact with sensory nerve endings in the skin.The paresthetic reaction is not allergic in nature, although sensitization and allergic responses have been reported as an independent phenomenon with pyrethroid exposure. Neither race, skin type, nor disposition to allergic disease affects the likelihood or severity of the reaction.
Persons treated with permethrin for lice or flea infestations sometimes ex- perience itching and burning at the site of application, but this is chiefly an exacerbation of sensations caused by the parasites themselves, and is not typical of the paresthetic reaction described above.
Other signs and symptoms of toxicity include abnormal facial sensation, diz- ziness, salivation, headache, fatigue, vomiting, diarrhea, and irritability to sound and touch. In more severe cases, pulmonary edema and muscle fasciculations can develop.35 Due to the inclusion of unique solvent ingredients, certain formula- tions of fluvalinate are corrosive to the eyes. Pyrethroids are not cholinesterase inhibitors. However, there have been some cases in which pyrethroid poisoning has been misdiagnosed as organophosphate poisoning, due to some of the similar presenting signs, and some patients have died from atropine toxicity.35
1. Skin decontamination. Wash skin promptly with soap and water as out- lined in Chapter 2. If irritant or paresthetic effects occur, obtain treatment by a physician. Because volatilization of pyrethroids apparently accounts for pares- thesia affecting the face, strenuous measures should be taken (ventilation, pro- tective face mask and hood) to avoid vapor contact with the face and eyes. Vitamin E oil preparations (dL-alpha tocopheryl acetate) are uniquely effective in preventing and stopping the paresthetic reaction.37, 38 They are safe for appli- cation to the skin under field conditions. Corn oil is somewhat effective, but possible side effects with continuing use make it less suitable.Vaseline is less effective than corn oil. Zinc oxide actually worsens the reaction.
2. Eye contamination. Some pyrethroid compounds can be very corrosive to the eyes. Extraordinary measures should be taken to avoid eye contamina- tion.The eye should be treated immediately by prolonged flushing of the eye with copious amounts of clean water or saline. If irritation persists, obtain pro- fessional ophthalmologic care.

Sun City, FL

#22 Dec 14, 2009
3. Gastrointestinal decontamination. If large amounts of pyrethroids, espe- cially the cyano-pyrethroids, have been ingested and the patient is seen soon
after exposure, consider gastrointestinal decontamination as outlined in Chap- ter 2. Based on observations in laboratory animals34 and humans,35 large ingestions of allethrin, cismethrin, fluvalinate, fenvalerate, or deltamethrin would be the most likely to generate neurotoxic manifestations.
If only small amounts of pyrethroid have been ingested, or if treatment has been delayed, oral administration of activated charcoal and cathartic prob- ably represents optimal management. Do not give cathartic if patient has diarrhea or an ileus.
4. Other treatments. Several drugs are effective in relieving the pyrethroid neurotoxic manifestations observed in deliberately poisoned laboratory animals, but none has been tested in human poisonings. Therefore, neither efficacy nor safety under these circumstances is known. Furthermore, moderate neurotoxic symptoms and signs are likely to resolve spontaneously if they do occur.
5. Seizures. Any seizures should be treated as outlined in Chapter 2.

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