Extreme dizziness and brain fog
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#61 Nov 18, 2008
Hi Will,
Remember, this is not advise...only a few observations that I have had with my own disease.
Do talk this over with your doctors.
You sound lost in the maze of the Lyme cycle. I have had it for more than twenty years, and although my symptoms seem to have fades in time, it might be that I have adjusted my whole life around them. I can say that when the fog spell begins with a type of aura, I have to take to my bed with a benadryl before it fully hits me. In my case, if I take half of a child's benadryl and lay down for an hour or so, I avoid the worst part of the fog. The headache that goes with the herx fog has been treated with success with a nurontin compound. However, even though the headache is not present, I still have the herx from time to time.
Remember that Lyme disease presents itself differently in different people depending on where the litte critter decides to take residence in the body. There does appear to be a pattern to the movement in many people that I have read about over many years. After entering the blood system from the bite site, the liver seems to be first, then it travels into the gall bladder where it causes some people to get gall stones and possibly the removal of the gall bladder. It enters into the gastic area from the gall bladder and then moves freely through-out the gut. Symptoms of a severe bout with stomach flu exist at this time.
Each time I have felt that I needed to get a job, a flare up would cause me to lose focus and then I could not think, much less drive.
Holding down a job is impossible for me, but some people have understanding ob situations that allow them to work and take care of their situation on the job. However, one still has the serious problem of getting to and from work, because many accidents can occur when a fog is present. I would not take a chance with my life or the lives of other in this dangerous senenerio.
Stress seems to be the one thing that can actually bring on the lyme fog or a herx reaction.
I do think that some doctors are getting good at controlling symptoms of lyme disease. What you are describing sounds like it includes the herx reaction the antibiotics. There is some indication that there is a type of toxin that builds up, either from the lyme critter itself or the mass of lyme critters dying of and being cast off into the blood stream. No real proof exist for this, but many Lyme'e patients have the same symptoms.
Good luck with your disease. Although it seems to be the enemy, it is simply a tiny critter trying to survive in a human body. The real enemy are the lack of qualified doctors and an acceptance in the medical and political world that must do more to isolate and destroy this little critter as quickly as possible.
Ni
Will wrote:
hi my name is will and i live in nyc and was diagnosed with lyme in feb 06, since then ive been on doxycylcine,biaxin clarithromycin, amoxicillan and tindamax.
in the beginning i had severe dizziness with panic attacks and "brain fog".
has anyone else had these symptoms and got rid of them? im going on 11 months of off and on being sick but the brain fog almost never went fully away.
what can i take that would help me? i havent even been able to go to work in 2 months.
thanks everyone
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#62 Nov 18, 2008
Anonymous wrote:
Diziness and Brain Fog are symptoms of problems with the kidney area.
I'd advise going to a chinese doctor to help with that or a nateuropath in addition to going to a regular doctor. In that way, you are treating the whole issue.
Hi,
I am looking into the eastern method of Lyme Treatment and I actually am looking for a Naturapath, but there are so many quacks that are just looking for money, not a cure.
So, I am cautiously looking for a dependable clinic.
I don't stay in touch when I am in my ill stages, so...if I am not around...it does not mean I don't care.
Ni
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#63 Nov 18, 2008
don't know if this will help anyone, but I went through a trial chemo to get rid of the Babesiosis. It worked and I am over that "bug", however the doctor that offered me this hope has been harassed for trying this method. I was on it for three months, but I don't remember much of it because I was on other medications to control the nausea and side effects. I was checked often by a visiting nurse, who took blood test for levels of the medication and my over all health. To let you know how far under I was, my sister had called to tell me that my father had died after a car accident and several months later, I asked about him and she was upset because she realized that I had not remembered her call. Ticks are not the evil...it is what lives in the tick. I have a funny theory...maybe what destroyed the dinasaures was lyme disease.
Hang in there, Ni
ticnic wrote:
Hi will,
I have chronic lyme that went mis-diagnosed for over nine years. I had all of the same symptoms and understand your frustrations. I was so fatigued, week and dizzy; could not remember anything or carry on a conversation. I also had severe twitches, and numbness in the left side of my body. Finally got to a lyme literate Doc who diagnosed me with late stage chronic lyme. I went on IV antibiotics in Jan. 2005 and remained on them for 10 months. I am now about 50-60 % better but still relapse occasionally; especially when I over do it. I take one week of oral antibiotics a month along with one day of Flagyl. I have not been able to work since Sept.'04. I have brain fog on a daily basis.Some days are worse than others.
You need to be checked for lyme co-infections. "Babesia" tends to be the culprit for alot of the brain fog and neurological issues. I took "Mepron" to help with the cognitive problems. It is a nasty yellow liquid that is very expensive, but is supposed to be very effective for treating Babesia with brain issues.
They have told me that I will never be completely "well" but am glad to be where I am. A couple of good days here and there are better than all bad days. Stay positive and be thankful for the small things in life.(except for the tick!) Stress and bitterness over your disease will only keep you sick.
I wish you prayers and better health,
ticnic
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#64 Nov 18, 2008
This is the most susict description I have ever read. Good work. I was on a trial long term medication for over twelve years. It did not seem to cure the disease, but it did control some of the symptoms to some degree. Yes, I still go through all of these and am not able to exercise any more. Laying down feels the best, but that is just like living in a small box. Depression is what eventually takes over, but does not stay long. Keep Keeping On, Ni
Nancy B of NJ wrote:
Lyme is different for everyone. For me, it included memory loss, depression, brain fog, muscle twitching, insomnia, dizziness/head pressure, hot hands/feet, tinnitus, fatigue, heart palpitations, repetative thoughts and a sense of compelling agitation. the symptoms migrated Never had any pain or bull's eye rash.
After 71/2 months on doxycycline, I am 95% better. If you can, exercise. Spirochetes die in oxgenated blood and heat. This disease will be chronic, so develop coping strategies and research natural remedies for immune system strengthening. If socialized medicine becomes a reality, these things will singularly be our only hope as chronic Lyme patients.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#65 Nov 18, 2008
Hi,
I saw the words, "deathly afraid" and I realized the same words came from my mouth over twenty years ago. I was going through a panic attack, and it spoke louder than my courage. My courage usually is like jello melting when I go through the herx and Lyme symptoms. The CDC has shown that Lyme ticks have actually crossed the boarder of every state. A little jab at the intelligence of some non lyme literate doctors...
Animals cross boarder...goodness, has anyone noticed that spelling goes out the window when one has Lymes. That is my excuse and I am sticking to it.
Hang in there...I made it for over twenty years. Not a lot of fun, but I can push through it and did go on a vacation the the grand canyon. They allow those with disabilities to drive through areas instead of walking.
I was recently looking for a doctor closer to where I live, due to gas prices. And a new doctor said I did not present the normal symptoms for lyme disease...and that it did not show up in my lab test. So, the learning curve for doctors still exists, but they are getting more and more educated. However, some doctors are looking for the glory of the cure...like the TV "House"...and I am afraid that this disease is not going to give anyone that gives that feeling of glory. However, I could be wrong, because I know there is a cure out there somewhere. Ni
gab wrote:
I was dx with lyme in Aug. after going to the hospital for extreme leg pain. was told I had restless leg syndrome. 2 wks later dx with lyme. The dr. thinks I might have had it a few years. thinking back probably 3 or more with very little symptoms until this past aug. being re-infected with the co-infections. My biggest problem is lyme fog. I was told that I am going thru a dieing phase and it should resolve. I am on the 6month of anitbiotics by mouth, didnt have lyme fog prior to tx. will this go away I am deathly afraid!!
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#66 Nov 18, 2008
The antibiotic eye drops is a new one to me. I have got to get new glasses again and I am going to ask about it. Thanks, Ni
TomfromKC wrote:
I am reading a lot about the brain fog and other problems and may have some help. I was diagnosed with Lyme in Nov 07. Got bit by the tick in 02. Symptoms started sometime in 03. Give some of these a try:
Brain fog -
Try some vitamin B12. I take it as a shot every other day but some people take it every day. If you can't get the shots get the under the tongue tabs. I have heard they work pretty good also.
IBS or what ever your doctor is calling it.-
Try some Nystatin. Your regular symptoms have probably gone down with the antibiotics but the antibiotics may have given you a yeast problem. I had been on Levsin since 03 and don't take it anymore. I have no symptoms of my supposed IBS any more.
Eye problems, eye twitching, floaters, touble focusing or staying focused.-
I was given an eye test that checked for my ability to focus and adjust focus. I failed the test. My Dr. put me on antibiotic eye drops. Almost instant results.
I still stuggle with tingling and numbness and headaches but I am alot better. Hope some of this info helps.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#67 Nov 18, 2008
Hi
I guess what I want to say is that the symptoms of my Lyme disease persist, but they have not gotten worse in over twenty years. So, spelling goes down the drain, pain reaches a peak and fades away. and so forth down the list of Lyme Disease effects and side effects.
We really need a list of what symptoms we each have and check off the ones we have and the degree in which we are being effected. I can't remember the doctors name right now...let me see bru...something. Has a list of symptoms, which allows one to check daily or weekly so that your doctor can stay informed of your condition and react faster with rememdies or just medications that make things easier.
My favorite doctor married and moved away. She was so on top of Lyme Disease and the side effects. The only problem I am having now, is getting a non asa or no nsaid pain medication. I am allergic to so many things that it has made my tour of Lyme Duty harder. This is a war, but I really and truly know that there is a cure somewhere and that doctors must find medications that make life easier for the Lyme Patients while this research is being done.
Here is to the Lyme E generation Heros...there are many patients who have offered themselves to trial medications, doctors who have risked being sanctioned and families that have stayed behind their Foggy Family members. To all of you...hurrah!
Patsy wrote:
Hello Tom
Thank you so much for your encouraging and informative post. This disease is anything but boring, You never know what you will wake up with each morning.
I was lucky enough yo get a Dr who at least said "lets be on the safe side" I questioned him about changing antibiotics and he said TRY HARD doxy cycline is the drug of choice. I am drinking lots of water and if I have to I'll break for a day or so like you did. Sometimes you have to make a choice for yourself.. All my symptoms are better. But the brain fog is the latest and I felt better to hear that you had lost your way in a familiar place I was looking up a word in the dictionary and couldnt think of enough letters to even find it!!!. If you dont have your mind you dont have much
And I cant talk fast without getting tongue tied.Thank heavens my Bells palsy is about cleared or I would be drooling lol I cant imagine getting out and about with that problem.
I wont give up thanks for your kind remarks Hearing about others in similar straits who are getting better is medicine in itself Regards Patsy
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#68 Nov 18, 2008
I hope that having Lyme for over twenty years, gives some hope that it can be dealt with. I am not saying it was easy, but it seems it is harder on my family than on me.
My husband lost promotions and time because he takes care of what I need, when I need it. Because I could not work, one of my sons had to pay for his own college and my other son was not even that lucky. However, they are healthy. I am grateful for that, because I know of whole families that are living with the disease. Sometimes, none of them leave the house for weeks.
So, getting to the leg cramps...I was put on quinine for my babesiosis while it was being cured. It also helps with muscle spasms...so, I get to continue with this medication although there has been an uproar about giving this medication for this symptom. This medicine is hundreds of years old, and the new drug companies have tried to mimic it, but have failed...so, we now have to fight drug companies as well.
Ni
Sher wrote:
I forgot to mention I have numbness and tingaling of my lips and my taste for some foods has chamged.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#69 Nov 18, 2008
In my late stage Lyme disease, I have suffered the same symptoms...so, yes it could be. Worth checking it out. Ni
infectedinWI wrote:
After thinking I had the flu for a week, I suddenly had extreme joint pain. I was diagnosed with lyme disease in the summer of 2007. No bullseye rash or anything, but just extreme joint pain. If I was working (I am a teacher and have the summer off), I would have missed weeks of work. I was on doxy for three weeks. I still had some pain after that, so I saw an infectious disease specialist. He said I had human parvo. Now, eight months later, I think I am having joint pain again. After I sit or lay down for about a half hour or more, I am very stiff when I get up. I almost feel like my body will give out on me. I am only 26, so this isn't normal! Could this be linked to the lyme disease??????
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#70 Nov 18, 2008
Hey, don't worry about the whine...I think it is also a symptom of the Lyme. I know I have it...and I look into the eyes of my family and I see that I must have gone on too long about my symptoms and fears. Yes, there is another symptom to add to the list. And you know what, at least the doctors can measure that symptoms and have proof that you have it...so, it is just another proof you have Lyme Disease.
I can't prove my pain...they don't take my word for it.
I can't prove my numbness...they don't feel it.
I can't prove my nausea...they are not seeing it.
I can't prove my muscle spasms because they don't happen in their offices...my dentist actually got to see them in my hands.
I can't prove the tick bit me, although I took it to the doctor.
I can't prove my headache, because they are all in my head.
I can't prove my fog because that to might be a lazy or senile mind.
I can't prove I am tired, for I might just be lazy.
I can't prove...well, you get the gist. We Lyme'EZ live in an unproven world. A computer game seems more real that our illness. Just because it can be seen.
Hang in there...or lay there...what ever seems more comfortable for you. And be easy on yourself.
Ni
Carol Ryan wrote:
Hello everyone. It is so good for me to read your posts. I have Lyme Disease but often have such a hard time believing it: don't know why. I even had a bulls eye rash about 12 years ago and was tested for Lyme (WB). The result kept coming back "borderline". Until after 3 submissions 2 weeks apart each, then the test turned negative so it was decided the rash must not have been Lyme. I should have been treated, but MDs were dumb then (so was I!). Now, years later, I have numbness, dizziness, headaches, twitching, palpitations, neurogenic bladder, chronic tenosynovitis of my wrists and hands, and all kinds of opther junk like exhaustion, brain fog and more (I completely don't remember doing things!! It is bizarre: I sometimes accuse other people of moving things, when apparently it was me all along - no memory of it). I have been on docy for 4 months, plaquenil and lots of supplements as well as fluconazole. I have serioous ups and downs: the downs about every 3 weeks where I feel really bad. My dizziness was about gone and all of a sudden it is back along with all of my previosuly improved symptoms! Some have never left like the neurogenic bladder. I'm sorry I am whining: it is just a weird illness and I am still working but feeling like just staying home; and I hate to complain to people in my life, so am just venting here among friends. I am praying to get well. Best wishes to all of you.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#71 Nov 18, 2008
Ni,
Yes to the advise...medicare might be able to help you with buying your drugs. I don't know the criteria, because I fell between the cracks because my husband makes too much, but not enough to afford the medications.
You can check with them to see if they can help in your state. I know a lot of people taking medication trial get their drugs free.
Don't give up! You are important to the Lyme community...to your family and friends. Although, some may pass you by...you cannot give up hope.
Ni
jen12345 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for your post. Been on oral ant. for 9 months, have a great Lyme doctor back east. Biggest problem was dizziness, until about 3 weeks ago, then the numbness, tingling, burning in legs and wrist. Very painful. I tested negative for co-infections, however looks like Epstein barrr was tipped. Dr, thinks may have co-infection with this new nerve pain issue and want to try Mepron. Went to pick it up and it was $900 for a 21 day supply, nearly fell over. Can't afford....any advive?
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#72 Nov 18, 2008
ni,
I hate it when someone says I am depressed...like I don't have a right to feel sadness at losing about seventy five percent of my life.
It is like telling a pro football team not to be upset when they lose a football game. It is natural to be a little sad.
I can't take the new drugs for depression. So, I stick with the older ones and don't take the whole dose because it makes me more tired, which means I cannot fight this disease as well.
Hang in there...baby yourself...give yourself the right to be sad...but, if it goes on too long...take steps to get someone to talk to.
Ok...enough old sage advise.
Ni
Sher wrote:
I have all your symptoms and more, but I really don't have a lot of joint pain. Here is all my symptoms:
Electrical shocks all over my body including my face,burning spots all over my body including face,neck pain from disk problems,eye vision has changed, eyes hurt,twitching all over body including face and eyes,numbness & tingaling all over body,headaches,jaw pulsating,arms real week,my body trimmers(not MS)ringing of ears, dizzy, feel like I am going to throw up all the time, Tired all the time,can't spell words any more, cunfusion, short term lose memory,muscal spasm while sleeping it will wake me up. I have to jump out of bed and stand up to get rid of the pain. I have sleeping problems as well. Now I have been told I am depressed.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#73 Nov 18, 2008
Ni,
If they will not release your medical records to you, you have a problem. Get a doctor and have him send for your records with your permission. I have a few worries about your post because it indicates a little problem with dealing with the fact that Lyme Disease does exist. That has been proven. The diseases that you mentioned have even more of a problem...they don't know the origin or cause of those diseases. I think it might be that they are prone to overlook the cause because they are set in their ways and just want to deal with symptoms and not causes. Think on it. Ok? Ni
acrocosm wrote:
I have been experiencing many of the symptoms discussed by others in this forum. The pain, numbness, dizzyness, brain fogs and all the rest.
I just got out of the hospital after a few days of testing, and I from what I hear (the hospital refused to release my own medical records to me for some reason); they have ruled out MS, there is nothing wrong with my blood, and nothing abnormal turned up in a CT scan of my brain. So it seems at this point, this problem still remains a mystery.
The main reason I decided to post something here is that I've noticed that this particular forum has fostered a small community of individuals suffering with the same collection of symptoms. Some of them have been diagnosed clinically with Lyme, but many others who have posted, and many just visiting for the first time, may not have any idea what they're dealing with.
It should be mentioned that those who are suffering these symptoms, who live in the northern united states, or canada, and who havent spent any time out in the woods in the time leading up to the development of their symptoms, have very little chance of having picked up Lyme disease.
Lyme is often called "The Great Imitator", because it can so well mimic other disorders. If you are suffering from weakness, dizzyness, stabbing pains in your limbs, or anywhere on your body, brain fogs and neurological or digestive problems, you may be suffering from fibromyalgia (thought to be a nervous system disorder), or MS (same category), or possibly a circulatory problem. You might have Lyme disease, but don't rule out the possibility that it could be (and probably is) something else.
I'm glad that this forum exists, and it's good to know that others are suffering from the same things. Remember, the squeaky wheel always gets the oil. Don't hesitate to be vocal, and push doctors for answers, or tests you feel you may need, and to be proactive in your own solution. You know your body better than they do.
Best of luck to everyone, and I hope a few less people will come on here, and have a heart attack, because they're sure they have Lyme disease.
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#74 Nov 18, 2008
Ni,
Yes Debi it is familiar. I fear that you might not be able to drive with this disease because of your safety and the safety of the people on the road with you. I am a little concerned about the swelling in the hand. Is you grip as strong as it use to be? I know I get twitches in my small finger, but that can be nerve damage related. I have noticed after a fall, that the area that was injured actually felt numb from that time on. So, avoiding injury to joints and muscles seems important. Also, if you do have Lyme disease, it has been found that you cannot afford to be in an accident that cause damage to the spleen. The spleen is responsible for collecting damaged red blood cells and diseminating them back into the body.
Hope you get more information on your condition. Ni
Ni
Debi wrote:
I've recently been diagnosed with Lyme Disease and I experience similar symptoms to what are being explained in this thread. I'm so fatigued and get dizzy sometimes...like my head is lighter than air...and I feel like I can just fall asleep standing up. This is particularly bothersome for me because I'm a truck driver and absolutely need to be alert. Not only this but I also have swelling in my right hand (knuckles) and get headaches, which are both very painful. I feel like I'm at my wits end and it also causes me to have severe depression and panic attacks as well. The simplest things, such as things to be done around the house, become very confusing for me...like I don't know where to begin so I feel paralyzed and can't do anything. Is any of this making any sense???
<quoted text>
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#75 Nov 18, 2008
Hi,
Because of your Name...I thought you might like to hear about my ideas for the children who have Lyme Disease.
First of all, it would be called Alice in Wonder Land.
Let me explain. There is a rabbit that we will call the Lab Rabbit. This rabbit leads one down a dark hole in the ground on a journey that is unbelievable...due to the likeness to the Lyme Symptoms parallels.
The cheshire cat, seems to come and go...like a cat with Lyme disease. The medications that Alice takes makes her dizzy, big, little and then she feels odd feelings. She gets lost, only to find she was lost in her own neighborhood. She plays with word the way George Bush does...(lyme disease patient).
The twins seem to be the double message we get when we ask about Lyme Disease.
The mad hatter shows the odd behavior that one has in the doctors office as we wait in line in the waiting room...moving from one chair to the next till we can enter. Dirty dishes, tea which is probably green tea to build up disease resistance.
The odd conversation at the tea table, that makes sense but doesn't.
The queen who is concerned with white roses and red roses...
The mushrooms...hummm...
Well, I will leave you all to reread Alice In Wonderland and see your own parralel universe.
Is there anyone with Lyme Disease that does not feel that they have fallen in a hole following the white rabbits into a bizarre world of ups and downs and contrary information?
Ni
NanaButterfly wrote:
This post is to cathy from jacksonville!
I just stared treatment for lyme from Dr. Reifsnyder and you said he was a godsend. I am so glad to hear that sometimes you find yourself questioning everything after all the mis-treatment from at least 30 doctors. Please email me at [email protected] it would be nice to share with someone who is going through the same experience. Thank you so much for your post as it has helped me to know I made a right choice!
nielli

Menlo Park, CA

#76 Nov 18, 2008
Ni,
I agree with being careful of buying product from sellers. There are good people out there, but the money scammers are a larger number that one can imagine. Who could imagine a person would take advantage of the ill. Well, believe it...some people don't even think twice about it.
Ni
Cherie in Arizona wrote:
I have had brain fog for over 15 years. No Dr had a clue. Then I went to Barrows Neurological Hospital in Phoenix. The Dr. said I had MIGRAINES!!! I told him I didn't have headaches. He said there are many types of Migraines and that I had classic symptoms. I now take neurontin (gabapentin 300 mg.generic name) I am so much better it is astounding!! I am not 100%. There have been a couple of days when I felt like it was coming on but was gone by noon.I urge you to see a good neurologist before you start detoxing and cleansing your body with things sellers want you to buy. I wish you well. I know how you all suffer. This is just my case. If you have something like Lymes that is probably a whole nother story. Also the Dr. said if this didn't work there are many other meds that will.
Dolores

Lutz, FL

#77 Feb 17, 2009
Caryn Jaffe RN CLNC wrote:
HI everyone,
You are not alone. I am in the process of becomming my own miracle. My lyme Literate MD here in Maryland just took me off of IV Doxycycline, PO mepron and Zithromax and said, "Short of some new miracle treatment, I don't see you ever getting any better." I knew this treatment was a last ditch effort to control the chronic and newly active lyme and babesia infections I have.(Infected in 1989. Diagnosed in 1991. reinfected in 2004)
I was an award winning IV therapy RN (Ironic, I know) at the #1 hospital in the country (The johns Hopkins Hospital) and I had to leave my job due to this illness. It destroyed my marriage, many friendships, and for a while, my entire life. I went from being an ironman triathlete to an invalid.
And yes, I too, have the brain fog and dizziness, the numbness and tingling and weakness on my entire right side... massive and debilitating bone and joint pain, headaches, and uncontrollable nausea and gastroparesis. the only reason I am still not using crutches is b/c I am too stubborn. 2 1/2 years on them was enough.
But one thing I also have... is the will to conquer this illness. And somehow I am going to do it with gusto... I am going to do Ironman Florida on 11/1/08... and raise $$ for lyme research while I train... so keep your ears open for word of how to donate once I get everything set up! It's time to take on my own cause... while making my body strong enough to do ironman and kill every last spriochete in me. I may have failed IV antibiotics but I have not failed myself!
Stay positive and think big! We all have the power within ourselves to heal!
Have you tried boosting your immune system as well as using antibiotics ??
Tessa

Denton, TX

#78 Feb 18, 2009
I feel that way too! I am in Keller, Texas got lyme we think while on vacation in Maryland in August 08. On Antibotics since diagnose in November 08. Hope to get better!
r scheel

United States

#79 Mar 15, 2009
well i found an answer to the brain fog..perimenopause.. and started hormone therapy and it has all gone away..in fact.. i feel really young again.
Patti

Ashland, PA

#80 Mar 16, 2009
r scheel wrote:
well i found an answer to the brain fog..perimenopause.. and started hormone therapy and it has all gone away..in fact.. i feel really young again.
I am in the same situation, only I am not on hormones. I seem to only get brain fog when I cycle once a month for a few days. Exercise seems to help as long as I walk for atleast 30 minutes. That may work for women, but not sure how the men can explain it :-)

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