St. Paul Chiropractor Provides DOT Testing Available for Commercial Truck Drivers
#1 Nov 11, 2012
Since chiropractors get virtually no actual clinical training in cardiology, for instance .... How exactly does the DOT think they are qualified to perform physicals on truck drivers?
That poor truck driver with a silent cardiac condition will regret ever having gone the expedient route in having a chiropractor clear him/her.
How scary is that?
People assume chiropractors are well trained in examining, diagnosing and treating medical conditions. They are NOT!
I was a chiropractor. I am here to expose the very high risk one takes when depending on a chiropractor to evaluate his health.
#2 Nov 11, 2012
Wisdom has no clue what he's talking about. This prick has no clue that chiropractors receive extensive post graduate training. Then again, wisdom is irrelevant.
#3 Nov 11, 2012
ha ha ha Mr. Chiropractor, please tell us where you received your "post graduate training in cardiology"?
I was a chiropractor. Your bull crap just came to an end.
#4 Nov 11, 2012
he he he Yup, just like I said: wisdom has zero clue about chiropractic education. Zip. None. He's just a fraud who waves his Caribbean diploma mill MD over his head--where you don't even have to attend class to get that fake piece of paper. You can order it over the internet---I've seen copies online. Great fakes--like the frauds who buy them.
Just a friendly bit of advice: if you see a Caribbean medical school diploma hanging on the wall--RUNNNNNNN, as fast as you can out of that office--as if you life depended on it--because it does.
#5 Nov 12, 2012
I'll assume Wisdom is actually wanting information vs. wanting to smear chiropractors/chiropractic (big assumption, but I'll go with it).
There are 5 providers, as determined by the DOT, that are qualified to perform DOT physicals - MD's, DO's, APN's, PA's and DC's. I think DPM's too. There was of course lobbying and whatnot and the "powers that be" declared it ok for DC's to do this.
In 2014, all providers will have be certified, which essentially means passing a 100 question test after taking about 22 credit hour CEU and they will have to register with a National Registry.
Most of it is managing medications, being aware of contraindications to driving, if they have a condition such as CAD, knowing some test results such as Ejection fraction. It honestly isn't rocket science as you make it out to be, Wisdom, and now, they actually have technology to detect heart murmurs and a service "telecardiology" since yes, DC's are weak on heart and lungs (but strong on the neuro part of exam). If you hear a murmur, you just refer it and temp. certify pending outcome.
The prediction is some DC's will go for this as MD's, particularly primary care, just don't have time. This leaves the occ. med. health guys to do it and they probably will do it in high volume and win the big contracts.
Anyway, from what I have heard (yes, I took the CEU course), there are about an equal number of DC's and MD's giving shoddy exams. Just ask any trucker. Concentra, a big player and high volume ,has stories of just going in and touching your toes and a giving a stamp of approval from the MD.
I think DC's will make some professional inroads into this market...how far remains to be scene. It's a matter of a lot of ground work and yes, overcoming the bias you displayed on this thread to employers to win contracts. But as primary care loses interest in this "clinical low hanging fruit stuff", I think there's a good chance. Primary care is just too stressed to worry about a lot of this.
I hope this helps.
#6 Nov 12, 2012
(some spelling mistakes - remains to be "seen", lol)
#7 Nov 12, 2012
"Obi", like I said, "Since chiropractors get virtually no actual clinical training in cardiology, for instance .... How exactly does the DOT think they are qualified to perform physicals on truck drivers?
That poor truck driver with a silent cardiac condition will regret ever having gone the expedient route in having a chiropractor clear him/her."
If you read my post a little closer, you would have noticed that I said I was a chiropractor. I now practice critical care medicine.
Your reference to "ejection fractions" is most strange. Why would you even mention "EFs"? I hope you don't tell your "patients" that you are qualified to evlauate EFs. You are not. Period. Evaluation of "EF's" is obtained by angiograms or echocardiograms. Let's be clear ... chiropractors have absolutely NO training in evaluating cardiac ejection fractions or any other cardiac conditions for that matter. Nor are chiropractors even the slightest bit qualified to evaluate ECGs. Period. End of story.
The clinical training chiropractor receive is pathetic. Period.
You claim that chiropractors are experts at "neurological" evaluations. While most chiropractor graduate with a "basic", and I mean BASIC understanding of neurology, they lack real actual clinical experience in examining, diagnosing and treating actual patients with serious neurological conditions.(And I'm not talking about basic deep tendon reflexes or lesague's slr). So, without actual serious hospital based/neurologist office based experience, chiropractors are NOT qualified to evaluate these truckers. Period.
And yes, "obi", I have a real problem with MOST chiropractors. You see, MOST of you chiropractors use unfounded and bizarre treatments like activator, pro adjuster, nucca, gonbstead, ak, sot network etc etc without have any legitimate evidence to support using them. period.
Enough innocent and desperate people have been ripped off by chiropractic quacks. And that is why I and most of my closer friends in chiropractic left the field.
#8 Nov 12, 2012
Like I was saying....
"My point made." Yeah.
Was your point made when you wished the Haitian children 'continued suffering' following the earthquake after learning a group of Christian chiropractors donated their time, money and service to help them? Was you point made when you wished Sid Williams 'continued suffering in his wheelchair' following his stroke last year? I see your point and we know what kind of scum you really are.
Wisdom lied about 'just happened to bump into a waiter last night who was a failed chiropractor.' Each and every time wisdom goes to a greasy spoon he 'just happens to bump into yet another chiropractor who couldn't make it in practice." Dozens of times. What are the odds?? And why does he just 'happen to strike up a conversation with each waiter? Very, very creepy. And how is it each waiter just 'happened' to be a failed chiropractor? Of course wisdom is lying--to 'make his point'--which is HE failed in practice and now bashes chiropractic out of anger, frustration, and jealousy.
Oh, and don't forget what wisidom wished the Haitian children--wisdom wished them 'continued suffering.' See, wisdom is not play-acting benevolence when in reality he is quite depraved. "How dare you speak against this waitress!" Yeah--as if he's the champion of the downtrodden. "Stand back--I'll protect you." Oh, did I mention (not sure if I did) that wisdom wished the Haitian children 'continued suffering' following the earthquake. I forgot, did I mention that? If so, I'll keep on reminding everyone of that each time wisdom posts one of his lies. Count on it.
#9 Nov 12, 2012
You see "obi". This quack above is your colleague. Ask her for links to support the lies he just made up. If you don't get them ... well, enough said.
You wonder why I left a field which has idiots like this moron?
#10 Nov 12, 2012
Um, I am not sure you are in critical care medicine by the way you dialogue so let me start this saying I doubt your truthfulness. You are saying I was saying I was an expert in this, an expert in that, you obviously had no clue as to the background to this whole issue and are just spouting off I guess at chiropractors.
Let me try to explain...EF's are evaluated by the cardiologist and/or radiologist. The DC is not practicing cardiology. If the driver has a heart condition, he/she can only be qualified under certain guidelines and EF is a metric used.
So, if the EF is not to snuff under federal guidelines, then the truck driver must be DQ'ed. No matter how much the cardiologist says it's okay to drive and hops up and down like you screamign, "I"m an MD! I'm an MD!", you can't put that driver on the road or it's the company's butt in a sling if something happens.(and maybe yours)
I did not say DC's were experts at neurological conditions or evaluations, just that they have an operational familiarity with them more than let's say internal medicine. And I shoudl know...I work right next to internal medicine, right down the hallway and they thought it was amazing I tapped DTR's (deep tendon reflexes for the lay person reading) and told their APN's, "Oh yeah, we really should do that."
So please spare me.
And finally, you say DC's AREN'T qualified to evaluate these truck drivers. The Federal DOT says they are. If you don't mind, I'll accept the latter as the authority. Like I said, MD's, DO"s, DC's, APN's, and PA's are all taking the same 100 question test, pass or fail and are apparently holding their own in the initial stages. They have technology now to detect heart murmurs if that's your only objection (and about the only legitimate one you could perhaps levy).
It's a rather weak objection anyway, a statistically small concern since it's more likely and more statistically probable that the truck driver has been mis-medicated by an MD and really shouldn't be behind the wheel rather than the "Silent Killer" you are preaching - "thuh deadly heart condition."
I'd like to add a PS: most MD's I have encountered have lost the Art of the Exam anyway.
So move over, Wisdom, you got some competition, like it or not.
#11 Nov 12, 2012
That "idiot above" probably doesn't want to waste time educating and doing the ground work to educate ignorant posters like yourself like I am doing, masquerading as a "blogger journalist" to stop chiropractors from "posing."
A real journalist would actually do a little investigation to the facts of the issue and see if truck drivers examined by DC's were dropping like flies behind the truck.
Well, here's a link that may interest you:
That is, if you actually care about truck drivers rather than having economic competition in this market. You will notice illness, illegal drugs and ETOH account for 6% of accidents...hmmm...I wonder how much of that is Rx. or not...I guess we don't know.
Maybe next year they will have a category for "Examined by a DC" as a cause of death.
#12 Nov 12, 2012
" I am not sure you are in critical care medicine by the way you dialogue ..."
Whether you are sure or not is NOT the point. I could care less.
I evaluate EF findings by cardiologists every day. Many of my treating decisions are based on their findings. It is bizarre for you to think that a chiropractor is qualified to deny a trucker his license based on a "chiropractor's" evaluation of a particular EF finding. Totally bizarre. Simply because a chiropractor is not qualified to consider a particular EF finding in conjunction with other medical findings. Is an EF of 35% finding acceptable without cardiomyopathy? Is it even relevant? A chiropractor has NO training to make that determination.
I was a chiropractor. There is nothing you can tell me about chiropractic education. Stop trying to elevate your "education" and "training" into something it was not.
"you say DC's AREN'T qualified to evaluate these truck drivers. The Federal DOT says they are."
Yes they do. And I contend they have virtually NO idea how unqualified chiropractors are to perform these exams. Just like state education department officials, which "license" chiropractors, have absolutely NO clue about how utterly bizarre chiropractic treatments like activator and nucca are. Yet licensed chiropractors use these stupid and unfounded treatments on millions of patients to rip them off. That's a fact.
"They have technology now to detect heart murmurs ..." Really, no kidding? I mentioned echo's and angiograms already.
And then, it never fails,... you as a chiropractor bashed medicine....."most MD's I have encountered have lost the Art of the Exam anyway."
I'm sure as a chiropractor you encounter MDs doing examinations on a regular basis. YOU are full of crap. YOU are perpetuating the bull crap that starts being taught in chiropractic school. I work in a hospital. You have NO idea what you are talking about.
Further evidence of your idiocy is when you said, "they thought it was amazing I tapped DTR's " You're an idiot.
Oh and where are those links from your lying colleague? And do you know that your lying colleague above claims that as a chiropractor, he is expertly trained in "deep wound care"?
Indeed, I'm very happy I left the bizarre field of chiropractic many years ago.
#13 Nov 12, 2012
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA. Look at wisdom's angry tirade above. he he he Speaks volumes. First, he is NO MD. Look at the juvenile name calling he does. "Idiot, moron...."
Wisdom cannot put a coherent sentence together. He uses tantrum-like words such as quack, moron, diaper, idiot, dumb ass, etc. Did wisdom finish grammar school?
Wisdom does not work in critical care--unless this 'famous NY hospital' where he says he works as the 'head of neurosurgery' hires MD's who bought a fake diploma mill diploma from a phoney Caribbean medical school. The entrance requirements for ANY Caribbean medical school is fifty grand a year and the ability to fog a mirror. If you can't fog a mirror they'll put on their 'wait list' for a half an hour, then admit you so long as you come up with the cash. Don't trust any butcher with a Caribbean medical school diploma hanging on their wall. They're all fakes.
Wisdom lies with each post. He's an angry little boy who failed in life. Period. Wisdom has so many mental hangups, Freud couldn't help him.
Oh, and let's not forget this: wisdom wished the Haitian children 'continued suffering' after the earthquake a few years ago. This, after a group of Christian chiropractors donated their time, money, and services to help these children. Wisdom called these Christian chiropractors quacks and criminals and again, wisdom wished these children 'continued suffering.' Don't forget that. That is the sort of professionalism wisdom offers you. Critical care MD? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AH AHA HA HA AHA HA HA HA
#14 Nov 12, 2012
You might not have gotten a good education, but where I went to school we learned how to read EKG's in a Class Titled Cardiorespiratory Diagnosis. So, I am extremely comfortable with listening to someones heart beat to determine if it is regular or irregular.
#15 Nov 13, 2012
You were probably a bad chiropractor, on the margin, and I am not sure of your background but the other poster here indicates you went to Carribean Medical school and now you think your crap doesn't stink. Well, it does.
You came on here with an intention to slander a person you don't even know and now I have handed you your butt in a sling.
The Federal guidelines determine what is an acceptable EF, not the DC.
Do you get that? McFly? T
he DC isn't really making cardiological clinical judgment. A panel of MD's has made the determination of what a proper EF should be if a truck driver is to be on the road. A DC gathers the test results and makes the determination on the Federal guidelines to Q or DQ. It's a matter of knowing what records to retrieve and what not to.
Like I said...it's not rocket science.
As far as detecting heart mumurs, no, you are wrong again about the technology I am speaking about - computer-aided ausculatation with an electronic stethoscope.
If the DC (or MD or APN or PA) has a real hangup about missing a murmur, it's only a matter of using this technology, which is fairly affordable, and is actually probably more reliable than the human ear anyway. It can interface with telecardiology and you can have a trained cardiologist listen if that's your gig.
BTW, I work in a hospital too, so the "sell" of "I work in a hospital" doesn't work on me, Wisdom. That's a Fallacy of Logic. I know you think it's some sort of "Temple" that only you MD Clerics can have access to to do that voodoo that you do so well, but it isn't some mysterious institution that it's all cracked up to be. I've been in the ER, OR, radiology...so again, please spare me the "I wear a white coat and carry a stethoscope" speech. I've met great docs, good docs, and terrible ones to be frank. It just doesn't impress me.
I'm glad you are all happy now you got the MD degree and honestly, congratulations on that. But stop commenting on matters in which you have little to no knowledge.
So you were a sucky chiropractor. Try to be at least a halfway decent MD.
#16 Nov 13, 2012
Let me predicate something I said to be clear, because I can see you are TRYING to learn.
If the patient has had a MI and he/she wants to drive and be certified, the DC would see what his/her latest EF is. If it's above Federal guidelines, they can be certified. If not, then they can't be.
End of discussion with cardiologist, no matter how much he says, "Well, it's bizarre. I do this everyday."
Well, then get the EF up, if you can, and he/she can drive.
The Federal Government has spoken. I'm hanging up now.
So, what's that like, Wisdom? To know that I am in charge of your patient in at least one sense? Are you fuming? Does it bother you? Does it want to make you reach into your pocket and hand the AMA lobby money?
C'mon, you can tell me.
I'll confess it delights me a little.
#17 Nov 13, 2012
Wisdom Failed In Practice,
I see what you are saying and let's face it, chiropractic has enemies and a lot of that is our own fault - we have made enemies and some of it with good reason. That doesn't mean they don't deserve confronting when they are dead wrong.
He obviously has issues with Activator and NUCCA and is trying to insert that into the argument when that does not have to do with the Price of Tea in China as far as this discussion goes.
What I find rather bizarre in a screwball way is allopathy is crying out for primary care. This is something that is kind of "pseudo-primary care" and you think they'd be happy a group of providers is stepping up and doing these exams and serving these truck drivers so they can go do their specialized care that they want to do and make money doing (because any MD will tell you - that's where hte money is). But no, they CAN'T do it (ask any PCP about filling out the long form) but no one else can do it either according to them.
They wouldn't officially care if the truckers were rotting on the side of the road.
That's the kind of childish mentality you are dealing with. So what's this really about?
Well, what it's always about, of course -$$$.
It's a ruse by Wisdom to think he actually cares about these people and the service they get. He sees DC's making a grab for marketshare and that's what this is really about, not public safety.
#18 Nov 13, 2012
"stop commenting on matters in which you have little to no knowledge. So you were a sucky chiropractor."
Since I WAS a chiropractor, I am an expert on chiropractic matters. I take great pleasure in exposing chiropractic fraud. And that includes beginning with the basic chiropractic principle that "chiropractic subluxations cause disease/illness".
It also includes exposing the fact that NO chiropractic technique has any legitimate evidence to support using it for ANY condition. Think "activator" and "nucca" and "network" and "gonstead",.... shall I name the 200+ other ones?
There are many fine medical doctors who have graduated from Caribbean medical schools. If you have worked in hospitals, as you claim, then you would know that. Unfortunately, you and most other chiropractors were taught from day one to bash medicine. I always loved the claim that chiropractors spent more "classroom" hours learning than MDs. Never mentioning the fact that most chiropractic students are not nearly as academically qualified as medical students.
I'm also very familiar with chiropractic school teaching of "cardiology". Don't make me laugh. there is no actual clinical experience in examining, diagnosing or treating cardiac patients. Listening to audiotapes and your fellow students hearts is a pathetic and completely inadequate alternative to an actual clinical rotation with real cardiac patients. And that goes for all the other specialty areas. But you think its just as good to use a "computer-aided ausculatation with an electronic stethoscope."
Then, you back track .....
"A DC gathers the test results and makes the determination on the Federal guidelines to Q or DQ. It's a matter of knowing what records to retrieve and what not to."
I see, now you claim its only secretarial work you are doing.
And then, as is typically chiropractic, when someone disagrees with them, your labeled "negative" or in your case, call me a "sucky" chiropractor.
If, when you mean "sucky", I didn't buy all your bullshit, I'll agree. look, just because you bought into every bizarre and unfounded money making scheme in chiropractic doesn't mean every other chiropractor does. I've done my part in exposing chiropractic quackery. You? probably not so much.
Indeed, the activator is used by the MAJORITY of your colleagues. The activator is pure quackery. No evidence, no research, no reproducible studies, NOTHING.
Indeed, this quack above has defended every bizarre chiropractic claim made. That he is an expert at deep wounds, curing eczema, add, sexual dysfunction, and even "goldfish". He also claimed I went to a Caribbean medical school. He is YOUR dumbass colleague.
I happily left the field a long time ago. The chiropractic field needs to be shut down and ALL the quackery weeded out. Enough fraud.
#19 Nov 13, 2012
Just saw your last post. It never takes long for a chiropractor to bash medicine as a way of trying elevate his status.
Trust me mr. chiropractor. Most MDs don't give a rat's ass about chiropractic.
And yes, I have a big problem with the more than 40,000 chiropractor who use the activator to rip off unsuspecting and innocent people.
The fact that you don't only makes my point.
#20 Nov 13, 2012
he he he When wisdom says, "Trust me," you'd better hang on to your wallet and count your fingers after shaking hands with him.
No one can trust a liar like wisdom. Here he's commenting on DOT exams and never did one in his pathetic life.
Who is a better movie critic than a fraud who's never seen a movie. Sums up wisdom's expertise. Oh, and he's no MD--not unless you give him credit for buying a fake Caribbean degree for $299.00 online.
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