Step children

Posted in the Bipolar Disorder Forum

Comments

Showing posts 1 - 20 of36
< prev page
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:
wondering

Stellenbosch, South Africa

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#1
Mar 27, 2008
 
I've read a lot about bipolars who are jealous of husband's/boyfriend's ex-wives or girlfriends (and vica versa).

But who of you are jealous of your step kids and can't stand to even be with them? I am not jealous of my husbandís ex-wife since I know he had a very rough and abusive marriage (she even broke his ribs) and he hates her with passion. I also feel very secure in my marriage.

I have a huge problem with my step children and always have an excuse when they want to come and visit us over weekends. I am SO afraid that I will totally freak out and go completely mad, I really do need my space big time! As you all know such stress is a huge trigger and it can throw you off balance for a long time! I really dread situations like this and canít face it anymore!

They (girl 16 and boy 19) are very immature, childish and co-dependant. Iíd rather prefer their dad spending time with them alone and not bringing them home to our (my) house. But he doesn't really like to spend time with them (they arenít close at all) and prefer them to rather visit us (occasionally).

My husband and I got married 3 years ago and are very happy. We canít have kids anymore and even if we could we wouldnít have wanted. My 19 year old son, from a previous marriage, is living with us and he and my husband get along very well. But he is a very mature independent university student and does his own thing, whereas I feel my husbandís kids totally suffocate me and expect me to be more to them than just a step mom.

I would like to hear if any of you have the same problem? How must I cope with this extreme irritation, jealousy, fear and intolerance?!

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#2
Mar 28, 2008
 

Judged:

5

4

1

That's sad.

I think you really should talk to your counselor/psychiatrist. Kids are supposed to be immature and co-dependant. Even more sad is that you have a husband who "doesn't really like to spend time with" his own kids, yet he's got a great relationship with your son? His children must be hurting a lot.

For all the step parents who have step-children who hate them, you poor thing that you have ones that actually want you "to be more to them than just a step mom". I'm bipolar too, but I hope you can see that having bipolar disorder doesn't mean you have have the right to be self-centered, whether you are or not.

He is a parent and he should be putting them first, as his commitment to them is life-long, not only 18 years long.

Please know that preparing yourself mentally for stressful situations with your psychiatrist can do amazing things for helping you deal with and even enjoy times like visits from your husband's kids. It seems that avoiding the visits is causing plenty of stress and anxiety as it is.

Good luck to you all, especially the completely innocent ones in this case... his children.
Sane One

Springfield, IL

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#3
Apr 3, 2008
 

Judged:

5

2

1

I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a 9 year old step daughter who will be 10 very soon. She acts like a 5 or 6 year old. Her dad does EVERYTHING for her. My 13 year old daughter is very intelligent, independent and confident. His daughter DRIVES ME CRAZY. She is extremely needy, clingy and has to have someone's attention the entire time she's with us.
She is unsophisticated, has horrible manners and is very tough to be around. And she lives with us 50% of the time!!!!!! She asks the dumbest questions constantly just to get attention and is out in left field when it comes to basic knowledge about life, politics, pop culture, etc. It's like she's been raised under a rock.
He still has to pour her juice for her in the morning, put her to bed at night, make every single simple decision for her and entertain her the entire time she's with us. She invites girls over to play and only 1 or 2 ever want to come over. Invites to other girls homes NEVER are reciprocated. She's a complete dork and he does nothing to help her. My daughter and I are completely dumbfounded by her lack of independence or even wanting any. It's weird.

Since: Jun 08

Valley, AL

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#4
Jun 5, 2008
 

Judged:

5

3

2

Wow!!! thats harsh!! And you are the 'Sane One'? Sorry but to hear an adult totally tear into a child who may be having issues about being separated from her dad and such really sets my teeat on edge.....

This is a kid, YOU are supposed to be the adult. Sounds like a daddy's girl to me. My BP BF has just such a daddys girl and she is 21. Guess what I love it!! I love the look on his face when she comes to him for advice. I love the way she responds to him when she feels she may have disappointed him. I love that they love each other and would have it no other way.

He has enough to deal with so seeing him take time with her and the love in his eyes when he does it, gives my hear a little bump as well.
Sane One wrote:
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a 9 year old step daughter who will be 10 very soon. She acts like a 5 or 6 year old. Her dad does EVERYTHING for her. My 13 year old daughter is very intelligent, independent and confident. His daughter DRIVES ME CRAZY. She is extremely needy, clingy and has to have someone's attention the entire time she's with us.
She is unsophisticated, has horrible manners and is very tough to be around. And she lives with us 50% of the time!!!!!! She asks the dumbest questions constantly just to get attention and is out in left field when it comes to basic knowledge about life, politics, pop culture, etc. It's like she's been raised under a rock.
He still has to pour her juice for her in the morning, put her to bed at night, make every single simple decision for her and entertain her the entire time she's with us. She invites girls over to play and only 1 or 2 ever want to come over. Invites to other girls homes NEVER are reciprocated. She's a complete dork and he does nothing to help her. My daughter and I are completely dumbfounded by her lack of independence or even wanting any. It's weird.
Carolyne

Minneapolis, MN

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#5
Oct 29, 2008
 
I can see where the woman is coming from , I don't like the way she wrote it. My step son who is 13 years old who has BI polar. I tried for three years with treatment facilities ,in and out patient and counselor's and multiple medications. Nothing has work at all so until you have a story that you have done something I don't want to hear your whinnying.
Frustrated

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#6
Apr 8, 2009
 
Iknow exactly what you're talking about. My fiance' has an 8 year old boy that does the exact same thing. Can't pick up his dishes when he's done and clean up after himself, is very immature for his age. He's with his mother 90% of the time and she teaches him NOTHING! He still needs someone to wipe him when he's gone #2!!! I'm not kidding! Someone has to pour his drinks, help him get ready for bed such as brush his teeth. He throws tantrums that I haven't even seen from a 2 year old! His mom buys him something everytime they go to the store so he won't freak out! He has to eat happy meals almost every day. He refuses to listen or obey anything whatsoever and he wants all of his dads attention. He constantly works him using emotions. He'll out of the blue say "I love you Dad". Of course Dad melts because that's sweet and then two minutes later, the little demon wants something. I think my fiance' is so blind to all of these games this kid plays on him because he wants to be the good/fun parent while he's with him. He'll scold him and then at the very same time start playing with him so the kid doesn't stay mad at him. He tells little white lies constantly and just avoids any responsibility for anything he does or his actions. When I was that age, I didn't act like that. My Dad was a work-a-holic and it was like never having a father figure around so my mom did most of everything for/with us. With some good strict discipline, we learned very quickly not to lie, to do whatever was asked for us without the absolute breakdowns of crying and whining or we got it twice as bad. We got 1 hour of tv and video games (atari) were at a minimum. That's all this kid does is play video games. I've been at my fiance's house where that kid has sat and played a video game for 6 hours STRAIGHT!!! My fiance' seems annoyed when I call him out on stuff such as that so I think I'm backing out because there's nothing I can do about it in the short time he's there and it just causes a riff. I mean, who am I? Just the person outside looking in right!?
Sane One wrote:
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a 9 year old step daughter who will be 10 very soon. She acts like a 5 or 6 year old. Her dad does EVERYTHING for her. My 13 year old daughter is very intelligent, independent and confident. His daughter DRIVES ME CRAZY. She is extremely needy, clingy and has to have someone's attention the entire time she's with us.
She is unsophisticated, has horrible manners and is very tough to be around. And she lives with us 50% of the time!!!!!! She asks the dumbest questions constantly just to get attention and is out in left field when it comes to basic knowledge about life, politics, pop culture, etc. It's like she's been raised under a rock.
He still has to pour her juice for her in the morning, put her to bed at night, make every single simple decision for her and entertain her the entire time she's with us. She invites girls over to play and only 1 or 2 ever want to come over. Invites to other girls homes NEVER are reciprocated. She's a complete dork and he does nothing to help her. My daughter and I are completely dumbfounded by her lack of independence or even wanting any. It's weird.
carol

Cork, Ireland

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#7
Apr 10, 2009
 

Judged:

4

3

1

Wow to speak like that about kids. I think ye are fucked up and self centred as well as being self absorbed.
Deb

Clarksville, TN

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#8
Jun 28, 2009
 

Judged:

2

1

Sane One wrote:
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a 9 year old step daughter who will be 10 very soon. She acts like a 5 or 6 year old. Her dad does EVERYTHING for her. My 13 year old daughter is very intelligent, independent and confident. His daughter DRIVES ME CRAZY. She is extremely needy, clingy and has to have someone's attention the entire time she's with us.
She is unsophisticated, has horrible manners and is very tough to be around. And she lives with us 50% of the time!!!!!! She asks the dumbest questions constantly just to get attention and is out in left field when it comes to basic knowledge about life, politics, pop culture, etc. It's like she's been raised under a rock.
He still has to pour her juice for her in the morning, put her to bed at night, make every single simple decision for her and entertain her the entire time she's with us. She invites girls over to play and only 1 or 2 ever want to come over. Invites to other girls homes NEVER are reciprocated. She's a complete dork and he does nothing to help her. My daughter and I are completely dumbfounded by her lack of independence or even wanting any. It's weird.
I totally understand and you have my sympathy. I have a 10 year old step son who acts 5. He lives with his inbred, hillbilly mother who wouldn't know a social skill if it slapped her in the face. He eats like a pig, has zero social skills, plays video games 24/7, and stays up till 4:00 a.m.(at his mother's house). I dread every visit with him and turn cartwheels when he goes back home. My husband knows how I feel and of course, it hurts him. I already know everyone is saying that I am selfish and should have known what I was getting into. Trust me, nothing could have prepared me for the misery that I endure and the heartache and guilt I endure because I am not the stepmother I hoped I would be. I tolerate him and that's about it. My husband accepts that. If something ever happened to my step son's mother and we had to get custody I would immediately file for divorce. It would not be fair to my step son or me for us to try to live under the same roof on a permanent basis.
1029lynn

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#9
Oct 19, 2009
 

Judged:

2

1

1

I feel the same way as most of you when we speak of our "step brats". my husbands ex wife ended up getting a dui and hit and run 2 yrs ago and we/he got his daughter away from that mess and we have had SO many problems with his 9 yr old daughter since she came to live with us! The kid acts dumb as a rock! I/we have to remind her a dozen times to do anything! She calls the neighbor kids horrible names (and i get to deal with the pissed off parents) she hits everyone (my 2yr old daughter alot!) shes already had the police at our house for throwing rocks at neighbors cars, she lies and sneaks! Sometimes i wish i would have left her with her mother(i know that sounds horrible) she acts so innocent when her dad speaks to her about her actions/behavior that he often "goes easy on her" when in actuality she should have gotten a spanking or atleast grounded! She drives me "loopy"...... So believe me ladies! I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND UR FRUSTRATIONS!!
Stepmom12

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#10
Nov 23, 2010
 

Judged:

4

2

1

Don't even get me started about step daughters...I have a stepdaughter who is almost 17 years old who is nothing but a narccisstic BRAT. We have been together 11 years. She has a fit if her dad is affectionate with me or even sits by me on the couch.
She has spent the last 7 years trying to come in between her dad and I but has failed miserably.....
I can't stand to be around her....
Not bipolar

Oceanside, CA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#11
Jan 2, 2011
 

Judged:

4

2

1

But, I had to comment. I have the same thing going on as "sane one". Yes, maybe her post sounds harsh, but sometimes the truth is harsh. I would probably have negative feelings towards "sane one's" post if I wasn't going through a very similar situation. I have a 9 1/2 year-old SD and a (just turned) 8 year-old son. They are in fourth and second grade. She asks the dumbest questions (for attention, I'm sure) and my son can't understand why she asks about things that are clearly obvious. Anyway, "sane one", I feel ya.
Bumble

Trier, Germany

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#12
Jan 12, 2011
 

Judged:

1

I hate to confess I too am failing miserably as a "step parent". Not married but living with the father and his 16 and 20 year old for 20 months. Their mother sadly passed, I have tried everything possible to understand, show empathy, support and help these children but in return I get mute, dumb expressions. I have only ever once expressed my frustration with the 16 year old daughter by calling her selfish and ungrateful for not clearing up behind herself for 5 days in the kitchen. Not once have they offered to do a thing in the house they expect a full hotel service. Whenever I ask for things they NEVER EVER get done. My partner is the message deliverer for shopping and things they want to borrow of mine. I hate it. However I also love him very very much but he is not consequent. I am at my wits end and feel like throwing in the towel and moving out. He is such a lovely wonderful man I feel completely torn, I cannot even face marriage at the moment because I know they would ruin the day for us.
cyberrosse

San Diego, CA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#13
May 19, 2011
 

Judged:

2

1

1

wondering wrote:
I've read a lot about bipolars who are jealous of husband's/boyfriend's ex-wives or girlfriends (and vica versa).
But who of you are jealous of your step kids and can't stand to even be with them? I am not jealous of my husbandís ex-wife since I know he had a very rough and abusive marriage (she even broke his ribs) and he hates her with passion. I also feel very secure in my marriage.
I have a huge problem with my step children and always have an excuse when they want to come and visit us over weekends. I am SO afraid that I will totally freak out and go completely mad, I really do need my space big time! As you all know such stress is a huge trigger and it can throw you off balance for a long time! I really dread situations like this and canít face it anymore!
They (girl 16 and boy 19) are very immature, childish and co-dependant. Iíd rather prefer their dad spending time with them alone and not bringing them home to our (my) house. But he doesn't really like to spend time with them (they arenít close at all) and prefer them to rather visit us (occasionally).
My husband and I got married 3 years ago and are very happy. We canít have kids anymore and even if we could we wouldnít have wanted. My 19 year old son, from a previous marriage, is living with us and he and my husband get along very well. But he is a very mature independent university student and does his own thing, whereas I feel my husbandís kids totally suffocate me and expect me to be more to them than just a step mom.
I would like to hear if any of you have the same problem? How must I cope with this extreme irritation, jealousy, fear and intolerance?!
I think it is sad when people think that just because they are now married to a new wife of husband, that the other family is no longer important. For you to say such arrogant and mean things about your husbands children regardless of their age is truely evil. they are the result of abuse and trauma and if they behave like children around their father is because they want to still feel loved and need for feel safe. your son is mature and intelegent; well then why is he still at home? he is so mature, let him fly away. your husbands kids are hurtting and all you care about is that they bother you. I am a step mom of two a 22 and a 23 and my step kids come over and I attend to them as if they were my kids too. if their dad is not home they feel good about talking to me about any problem they have. we eat something and then I send them on their way and I feel good that I was here to help. you knew this man had children, did you think that once they turned 18 they were going to disapear? has your son disapeared? why should they. I think you are selfish and your husband is a fool. no wonder his ex-borke his ribs. I would have too. A real man stands up foe his kids, does not allow anyone to speak bad about them and if needed takes them to theraphy to get help. You make me sick. you make wonder stepmoms like me look bad X-P
Torn

Hurst, TX

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#14
Jun 6, 2011
 
These stories are so familiar. My one exception is their father had a heart attack partly as a result of the neediness of 5. Adult children that still, even after a heart attack. can think only of themselves. I need this, you don't support me living like a 16 year old when I'm 21. What is one to do, stand by and watch them kill him? Or speak up and cause family turmoil bring added stress to their father. You are all right, the step parent is never really accepted - only tolerated and i can deal with that. But it deeply hurts to watch a kind generous loving man be torn apart by selfish children. Its never enough, dad fix everything for me. Thank God I raised my children to think for themselves, try to make good decisions, and be considerate of others. Taught to make their own way in life, hold themselves accountable for their dcisions and take pride in every effort they make to do their best. The divorce card can only carry you for so long. At some point, you have to make a decision to either let it have a lasting negative effect on your life or turn it around and use all that negative energy to better yourself and your life.
exhausted

Mansfield, MA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#15
Jun 16, 2011
 

Judged:

3

3

2

I have a 20 year old stepson who seems to be weird. He will hug his father like a woman hugs a man. He will walk into our bedroom when his father is naked and gets upset when I say for him to leave. A few times he has run into the bedroom while we are you know, and lay on top of his father. HIs father doesn't tell him to leave because he doesn't want to hurt his feelings. The other night he had to squeeze between his father and me cause he wanted to sit close to his dad. I think he was rubbing his leg, and his father didnt' stop him. He never picks up after himself. He spits on the porch, and poops in the toliet and never flushes. He clothers are all over the place. and all his dad can say is he's like his mother. His mother has more class then the 20 year old. Also he is goint to college that cost $40,000.00 a year, and all this kid can get is "d"s. and his father says nothing to him. He walks around with a knife in his pocket and he claims just incase he has to protect himself and if you want to know if he's dating. He is not. His other 2 siblings are great. They do typical kid stuff, but nothing like this. When they say something to their day, he says they are being influnced by me cause I don't like him. I guess I don't know why we shoud be married then. He wants to be this kid best friend. By the way he is a dad to the other 2. One of the other kids who is going to college got a "c" and was told if he didn't bring it up he would have to pay for school himself.
Bruins Fan

Boston, MA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#16
Jun 16, 2011
 

Judged:

3

2

2

exhausted wrote:
I have a 20 year old stepson who seems to be weird. He will hug his father like a woman hugs a man. He will walk into our bedroom when his father is naked and gets upset when I say for him to leave. A few times he has run into the bedroom while we are you know, and lay on top of his father. HIs father doesn't tell him to leave because he doesn't want to hurt his feelings. The other night he had to squeeze between his father and me cause he wanted to sit close to his dad. I think he was rubbing his leg, and his father didnt' stop him. He never picks up after himself. He spits on the porch, and poops in the toliet and never flushes. He clothers are all over the place. and all his dad can say is he's like his mother. His mother has more class then the 20 year old. Also he is goint to college that cost $40,000.00 a year, and all this kid can get is "d"s. and his father says nothing to him. He walks around with a knife in his pocket and he claims just incase he has to protect himself and if you want to know if he's dating. He is not. His other 2 siblings are great. They do typical kid stuff, but nothing like this. When they say something to their day, he says they are being influnced by me cause I don't like him. I guess I don't know why we shoud be married then. He wants to be this kid best friend. By the way he is a dad to the other 2. One of the other kids who is going to college got a "c" and was told if he didn't bring it up he would have to pay for school himself.
There are many, many disturbing stories on this forum, but, I think this one takes the "proverbial cake". Talk about creepy. You say: "He seems to be weird?" Absolutely creepy.
Manika

Walnut Creek, CA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#17
Jun 21, 2011
 

Judged:

4

2

1

Wow, are even a human being? Why did you marry a man, knowing he had children, aware that you are as jealous as a high school sophomore that can't hang? Trying to isolate a person from their loved ones is a major symptom of abuse.

His children: BAD. Your child: GOOD. Black and white thinking is a sign of well, not thinking. Anyone with a functional cerebral cortex would question how much of a "victim" you are.

I have bipolar disorder. My 2nd husband has done everything possible to alienate my children from my 1st marriage, from me. The ONLY reason I'm still with him is that he recognized, admitted, and sought help for his selfish behavior, and is making a living amends. I WISH my husband had children from a previous marriage so he would be more fulfilled, I can no longer have children. Besides that, I'd have more children to love.

I never post on forums. But your horrific, selfish behavior inspired me. Hope you seek help for your unkindness and selfishness. You inspire sadness. What a buzzkill.
carol

Birmingham, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#18
Jul 6, 2011
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Bruins Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many, many disturbing stories on this forum, but, I think this one takes the "proverbial cake". Talk about creepy. You say: "He seems to be weird?" Absolutely creepy.
absolutely creepy indeed,cant believe some of the comments,their either sooo jealous of their husbands children or they have major phycological problems which even doesnt get excused by their bipolar.
carol

Birmingham, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#19
Jul 6, 2011
 

Judged:

1

Frustrated wrote:
Iknow exactly what you're talking about. My fiance' has an 8 year old boy that does the exact same thing. Can't pick up his dishes when he's done and clean up after himself, is very immature for his age. He's with his mother 90% of the time and she teaches him NOTHING! He still needs someone to wipe him when he's gone #2!!! I'm not kidding! Someone has to pour his drinks, help him get ready for bed such as brush his teeth. He throws tantrums that I haven't even seen from a 2 year old! His mom buys him something everytime they go to the store so he won't freak out! He has to eat happy meals almost every day. He refuses to listen or obey anything whatsoever and he wants all of his dads attention. He constantly works him using emotions. He'll out of the blue say "I love you Dad". Of course Dad melts because that's sweet and then two minutes later, the little demon wants something. I think my fiance' is so blind to all of these games this kid plays on him because he wants to be the good/fun parent while he's with him. He'll scold him and then at the very same time start playing with him so the kid doesn't stay mad at him. He tells little white lies constantly and just avoids any responsibility for anything he does or his actions. When I was that age, I didn't act like that. My Dad was a work-a-holic and it was like never having a father figure around so my mom did most of everything for/with us. With some good strict discipline, we learned very quickly not to lie, to do whatever was asked for us without the absolute breakdowns of crying and whining or we got it twice as bad. We got 1 hour of tv and video games (atari) were at a minimum. That's all this kid does is play video games. I've been at my fiance's house where that kid has sat and played a video game for 6 hours STRAIGHT!!! My fiance' seems annoyed when I call him out on stuff such as that so I think I'm backing out because there's nothing I can do about it in the short time he's there and it just causes a riff. I mean, who am I? Just the person outside looking in right!?
<quoted text>
Do his dad a favour and butt out of his life,you are talking about a child you selfish woman.
carol

Birmingham, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#20
Jul 6, 2011
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Sane One wrote:
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a 9 year old step daughter who will be 10 very soon. She acts like a 5 or 6 year old. Her dad does EVERYTHING for her. My 13 year old daughter is very intelligent, independent and confident. His daughter DRIVES ME CRAZY. She is extremely needy, clingy and has to have someone's attention the entire time she's with us.
She is unsophisticated, has horrible manners and is very tough to be around. And she lives with us 50% of the time!!!!!! She asks the dumbest questions constantly just to get attention and is out in left field when it comes to basic knowledge about life, politics, pop culture, etc. It's like she's been raised under a rock.
He still has to pour her juice for her in the morning, put her to bed at night, make every single simple decision for her and entertain her the entire time she's with us. She invites girls over to play and only 1 or 2 ever want to come over. Invites to other girls homes NEVER are reciprocated. She's a complete dork and he does nothing to help her. My daughter and I are completely dumbfounded by her lack of independence or even wanting any. It's weird.
some of these comments are unbelievable about a young child,you have serious mental problems.

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

Showing posts 1 - 20 of36
< prev page
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:
Type in your comments below
Name
(appears on your post)
Comments
Characters left: 4000
Type the numbers you see in the image on the right:

Please note by clicking on "Post Comment" you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

5 Users are viewing the Bipolar Disorder Forum right now

Search the Bipolar Disorder Forum:
Topic Updated Last By Comments
My bipolar girlfriend put me through this.. (Feb '12) 8 hr Andrew 181
do all bipolar relationships end in disaster? (Sep '09) 9 hr Eclipse10 2,607
What is the best way to recover from a bipolar ... 13 hr Sarah 19
Bipolar Disorder and Military Wife (Jun '08) Fri alissa 16
bipolar gf sucked the life out of me (Sep '12) Apr 16 wish 25
What my bipolar gf did has left me sooo wounded... (Jun '12) Apr 16 Anonymous 171
Please help me help him Apr 15 Ester_K 14
•••
•••
•••
•••