Mom Dies After a Chiropractic Adjustment

Mom Dies After a Chiropractic Adjustment

There are 44 comments on the MyFoxNY story from Nov 24, 2009, titled Mom Dies After a Chiropractic Adjustment. In it, MyFoxNY reports that:

Within minutes, brain cells begin to die. How to Recognize a Stroke Sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg Sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding speech Sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes Sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination Sudden severe headache with no known cause Stroke and ...

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Jimmy Johnson

Aurora, CO

#1 Nov 24, 2009
Sad the mom died. It tugs at your heart strings, especially when you see a picture of the mother holding her child. The recent research published by the prestigious medical journal Spine made it clear it is not the chiropractic treatment that causes a stroke but rather the patient sought treatment from the chiropractor for the pain they were having from a stroke in progress. The study showed you actually have a slightly higher chance of having a stroke after seeing your general practitioner and they very seldom even touch you. The verdict is in and hopefully the media and a few anti-chiropractic medical doctors will start to report that and stay away from making the issue emotionally charged that scares patients away from a very safe procedure that keeps them from having to suffer the often severe side effects of pharmaceuticals.
L Baines

AOL

#2 Nov 24, 2009
Jimmy Johnson wrote:
Sad the mom died. It tugs at your heart strings, especially when you see a picture of the mother holding her child. The recent research published by the prestigious medical journal Spine made it clear it is not the chiropractic treatment that causes a stroke but rather the patient sought treatment from the chiropractor for the pain they were having from a stroke in progress. The study showed you actually have a slightly higher chance of having a stroke after seeing your general practitioner and they very seldom even touch you. The verdict is in and hopefully the media and a few anti-chiropractic medical doctors will start to report that and stay away from making the issue emotionally charged that scares patients away from a very safe procedure that keeps them from having to suffer the often severe side effects of pharmaceuticals.
Right. Now let's wait and see what the nut-job, humanity/children hater, Wisdom, has to say. Watch, he'll lie again. Can't wait. Wisdom will lie through his Wisdom teeth. Watch. I'll be right. Just wait. Wisdom, don't disappoint me. I know you can do it. I want to read your best lie about chiropractic and strokes. C'mon! You can do it. Wisdom IS the Lying King!
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#3 Nov 24, 2009
"The study showed you actually have a slightly higher chance of having a stroke after seeing your general practitioner and they very seldom even touch you."

Yeah, I'm sure it did.

Let's see, a chiropractor manipulates your neck and torques your vertebrae arteries and the medical doctor has you sit in a chair and listens to your heart and lungs.

ha ha

And, oh yeah, stay away from those dangerous "pharmaceuticals" especially when you are truly sick and "need" them.

Only in the land of chiropractic. An enterprise where they graduate from school without ever examining, diagnosing or treating truly sick patients. Visit their chiropractic student clinics and see for yourselves.

And chiropractors want to lecture about "pharmaceuticals"? ha ha that's rich. Maybe if they had education and experience with pharmaceuticals.

But they don't..

Lets all help empty the chiropractic diaper.

I'm guessing this chiropractor baines will disagree and shout "liar". Me thinks he doth protest too much. He is a chiropractor after all. Mired in the chiropractic enterprise.
L Baines

AOL

#4 Nov 24, 2009
Wisdom wrote:
"The study showed you actually have a slightly higher chance of having a stroke after seeing your general practitioner and they very seldom even touch you."
Yeah, I'm sure it did.
Let's see, a chiropractor manipulates your neck and torques your vertebrae arteries and the medical doctor has you sit in a chair and listens to your heart and lungs.
ha ha
And, oh yeah, stay away from those dangerous "pharmaceuticals" especially when you are truly sick and "need" them.
Only in the land of chiropractic. An enterprise where they graduate from school without ever examining, diagnosing or treating truly sick patients. Visit their chiropractic student clinics and see for yourselves.
And chiropractors want to lecture about "pharmaceuticals"? ha ha that's rich. Maybe if they had education and experience with pharmaceuticals.
But they don't..
Lets all help empty the chiropractic diaper.
I'm guessing this chiropractor baines will disagree and shout "liar". Me thinks he doth protest too much. He is a chiropractor after all. Mired in the chiropractic enterprise.
Wisdom, the liar, didn't disappoint! I'm just thankful I'm not a loser and a liar like Wisdom. Wisdom is a fraud.
Jesus Martinez

Westminster, CO

#5 Nov 25, 2009
L Baines

AOL

#6 Nov 25, 2009
Jesus Martinez wrote:
Wisdom already knows, but his job is to find the most obscure dirt on chiropractic then report it. Wisdom is a liar and a fraud--then again, that's a given.
But the above headline just underscores my point: When a terrible thing like a stroke happens under chiropractic care, it makes news! Why? It happens so infrequently. It is rare. What if the newspapers reported every medical mistake? That would take up enough paper to fill scores of encyclopedias each day. But one chiropractic mistake really sticks out since it IS news! It simply does NOT happen that often. But jerks, frauds, and liars, such as Wisdom, jump on this rarity to paint the entire profession with this one error out of millions of adjustments. Why does Wisdom do this? Because he's a nut job. Oh, and he's also a failure and is jealous of people like me, yes me, who have made a lot of money in chiropractic. Wisdom IS the LYING KING!
L Baines

AOL

#7 Nov 25, 2009
Wisdom wrote:
"The study showed you actually have a slightly higher chance of having a stroke after seeing your general practitioner and they very seldom even touch you."
Yeah, I'm sure it did.
Let's see, a chiropractor manipulates your neck and torques your vertebrae arteries and the medical doctor has you sit in a chair and listens to your heart and lungs.
ha ha
And, oh yeah, stay away from those dangerous "pharmaceuticals" especially when you are truly sick and "need" them.
Only in the land of chiropractic. An enterprise where they graduate from school without ever examining, diagnosing or treating truly sick patients. Visit their chiropractic student clinics and see for yourselves.
And chiropractors want to lecture about "pharmaceuticals"? ha ha that's rich. Maybe if they had education and experience with pharmaceuticals.
But they don't..
Lets all help empty the chiropractic diaper.
I'm guessing this chiropractor baines will disagree and shout "liar". Me thinks he doth protest too much. He is a chiropractor after all. Mired in the chiropractic enterprise.
You see, this mental case, Wisdom, says that all chiropractors do is bash medicine, when all he does is bash chiropractic. Can you say hypocrite? Wisdom is a liar. Wisdom is a mental case. Wisdom IS T-H-E Lying KING!
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#8 Nov 25, 2009
"Jesus", and "baines", chiropractors torque sclerotic vertebral arteries. Medical doctors do not.

Geee, I wonder which practitioner places the patient at risk for stroke?

Hmmmm?

Use your heads.
Jesus Martinez

Westminster, CO

#9 Nov 25, 2009
Wisdom watches too many Steven Segal movies. It's the research Wisdom. Yes, you can convince an uneducated lay person that Steven's on screen "adjustment" is what a chiropractor or osteopath performs and scare the devil out of them. On the surface one would wonder why every patient isn't paralyzed by this. But the research is what you appear to ignore. Ignorance is the only point you are making here.
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#10 Nov 25, 2009
"Jesus", you must be a chiropractor. Significanlty lacking the ability to think critically.

Here are other studies,

"In 2002, researchers representing the Canadian Stroke Consortium reported on 98 cases in which external trauma ranging from "trivial" to "severe" was identified as the trigger of strokes caused by blood clots formed in arteries supplying the brain. Chiropractic-style neck manipulation was the apparent cause of 38 of the cases, 30 involving vertebral artery dissection and 8 involving carotid artery dissection. Other Canadian statistics indicate the incidence of ischemic strokes in people under 45 is about 750 a year. The researchers believe that their data indicate that 20% are due to neck manipulation, so there may be "gross underreporting" of chiropractic manipulation as a cause of stroke [14].

In 2003, another research team reviewed the records of 151 patients under age 60 with cervical arterial dissection and ischemic stroke or transient ischemic attack (TIA) from between 1995 and 2000 at two academic stroke centers. After an interview and a blinded chart review, 51 patients with dissection and 100 control patients were studied. Patients with dissection were more likely to have undergone spinal manipulation within 30 days (14% vs 3%). The authors concluded that spinal manipulation is associated with vertebral arterial dissection and that a significant increase in neck pain following neck manipulation warrants immediate medical evaluation [15]."

Regardless, us eyour head.

Chiropractors manipulate neck which increases the risk of clots breaking free in the vertebral and carotid arteries.

You want to think otherwise? Fine. Its a free country.
L Baines

AOL

#11 Nov 25, 2009
Jesus Martinez wrote:
Wisdom watches too many Steven Segal movies. It's the research Wisdom. Yes, you can convince an uneducated lay person that Steven's on screen "adjustment" is what a chiropractor or osteopath performs and scare the devil out of them. On the surface one would wonder why every patient isn't paralyzed by this. But the research is what you appear to ignore. Ignorance is the only point you are making here.
Not to mention over 300,000 medical deaths per year due to doctor (MD) error. Not to mention over 1,000,000 people seriously maimed each year by medical (MD) mistakes. Not to mention another 1,000,000 or more adverse drug reactions each year.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/mistakes/common...
Not medical bashing, just facts. Wisdom will say this is medical bashing. It is not. Wisdom just can't handle the truth. Wisdom lies so much he is incapable of understanding the truth.
Now, I ask you: Did you see most of these million plus serious medical errors make the headlines? I didn't think so. But does ONE, not two, not three, but ONE chiropractic error make the news? Sure does. Why? Because it almost NEVER happens. But I would say that one million medical errors to one chiropractic error per year is slightly lopsided. Now if there were two chiropractic errors, I would say that would even up the score. Wouldn't you agree? And by the way, a Harvard MD even said this woman's stroke probably was NOT caused by the chiropractic adjustment. She had a predisposed conditon.
Do you now see how Wisdom lies ALL of the time? Do you now see how Wisdom is incapable of telling the truth? Wisdom IS the LYING KING.
Jesus Martinez

Westminster, CO

#12 Nov 25, 2009
Wisdom--you still don't get it. You have referenced studies done 5 and 6 years before the most recent study. The 2002 and 2003 studies looked at the previous history of a patient before they presented to the hospital with their stroke. The patient was asked if they had seen their chiropractor recently. What they failed to ask is if they had seen any other health care provider. The 2008 study showed that even more stroke patients had seen their general practitioner in the days before presenting to the hospital with their stroke than their chiropractor. The bottom line is these patients were having their stroke before seeing whatever type of health care provider they use. Is your anti-chiropractic bias so strong you can't objectively see the research? I'll give you this--anyone who is not adequately trained could possibly shear an artery but the education of osteopaths and chiropractors covers this issue in their schools in very deep detail. In all your posts I haven't seen you admit that it is even possible someone could be in the middle of a stroke, having a headache and seeing their chiropractor for the pain.
Jesus Martinez

Westminster, CO

#13 Nov 25, 2009
One more thing. Baines you keep saying "one chiropractic mistake". By saying this you are assuming the chiropractor did cause the stroke. I think you are wrong here and the research supports my point. The only mistake in this case would have been if the chiropractor didn't identify the signs of a stroke, if present, when the patient walked into his or her office. It appears the GP's are making that mistake at a slightly higher rate than chiropractors though.
Wisdom

Brooklyn, NY

#14 Nov 25, 2009
"jesus" believe what you want. If you don't think torquing necks can cause strokes, well, like I said, its a free country.

"jesus" said, " anyone who is not adequately trained could possibly shear an artery but the education of osteopaths and chiropractors covers this issue in their schools in very deep detail."

They mention it. They do not get any experience in examining, diagnosing patients for atherosclerotic disease of the vertebral or carotid arteries. Chiropractors do not order tests to rule out plaques in these arteries before they manipulate.

Are strokes common after manipulation? Not likely. A real risk? Certainly. And chiropractors do NOT, as a general rule, make patients aware of those risks.

chiropractor baines, said, "Not to mention over 1,000,000 people seriously maimed each year by medical (MD) mistakes. "

Yeah, nothing like a chiropractor being ridiculous.

And you say that the chiropractic diaper does not need to be emptied?
L Baines

AOL

#15 Nov 26, 2009
Wisdom wrote:
"jesus" believe what you want. If you don't think torquing necks can cause strokes, well, like I said, its a free country.
"jesus" said, " anyone who is not adequately trained could possibly shear an artery but the education of osteopaths and chiropractors covers this issue in their schools in very deep detail."
They mention it. They do not get any experience in examining, diagnosing patients for atherosclerotic disease of the vertebral or carotid arteries. Chiropractors do not order tests to rule out plaques in these arteries before they manipulate.
Are strokes common after manipulation? Not likely. A real risk? Certainly. And chiropractors do NOT, as a general rule, make patients aware of those risks.
chiropractor baines, said, "Not to mention over 1,000,000 people seriously maimed each year by medical (MD) mistakes. "
Yeah, nothing like a chiropractor being ridiculous.
And you say that the chiropractic diaper does not need to be emptied?
Yeah, nothing like Wisdom being ridiculous. Question for Wisdom: At what point in you life did you realize you were a failure and couldn't hack it in business? Just curious?
Jimmy Johnson

Aurora, CO

#16 Nov 26, 2009
Wisdom says:
"They mention it. They do not get any experience in examining, diagnosing patients for atherosclerotic disease of the vertebral or carotid arteries. Chiropractors do not order tests to rule out plaques in these arteries before they manipulate.

Are strokes common after manipulation? Not likely. A real risk? Certainly. And chiropractors do NOT, as a general rule, make patients aware of those risks."

You are just plain wrong again Wisdom. Have you sat in on a class at a chiropractic college? How about sitting in on continuing education courses sponsored by virtually all state chiropractic organizations? Stroke issues permeate all levels of chiropractic education as well as from the chiropractic malpractice companies. What doctorate level health care profession has lower malpractice insurance than chiropractors? Nobody I know of. What do the malpractice insurance companies focus on with their CE courses? Identifying a patient who comes into the office with stroke symptoms and getting them to the hospital quickly. If the research showed all patients should get a doppler they would recommend it. Informed consent, misguided Wisdom, is very common within the profession and recommended by all chiropractic malpractice companies.

"A real risk"? Certainly not Wisdom.

And when you say: "They do not get any experience in examining, diagnosing patients for atherosclerotic disease of the vertebral or carotid arteries. Chiropractors do not order tests to rule out plaques in these arteries before they manipulate." you are sharing your ignorance of chiropractic education and not accepting the research showing chiropractors do not cause strokes-patients are having a stoke when they present for treatment. Should a test to rule out plaque--which just about anyone over the age of 40 has--be done before spinal manipulation, mobilization, or a date with ones hairdresser (those sinks have been named as a cause of vertebral artery trauma)--especially when the research says a chiropractor isn't causing a stroke? Now how does that fly in the face of evidence based medicine? What about the costs to our health care system with this type of non-evidence based defensive medicine? Let your anti-chiropractic bias go Wisdom. It's OK, your peers won't look down on you--they know the truth. I can assure you your blood pressure will decrease (and consequently decrease the plaque I'm sure you are building up).
Giglenutz

Lakeland, FL

#17 Nov 26, 2009
Jimmy, you stated that the stroke was already in progress, well I watched the feed on it and it did not state that the stroke was already in progress. If it was in progress then the DC should be held liable as he as a PCP should be competent to diff diagnosis and see the obvious signs.

If I am wrong Jimmy then please correct me.

I myself and all for any informed consent with cervical manipulation, as if their is low risk or any risk then patients have a right to know and the DC being a PCP should be more than competent to rule this out. If futher imaging studies are needed then why not do them as this would be the best practice to go ahead and do.

I will give credit to the drug companies in some regard with this as they do list the potential risks.

I think NUCCA is gaining ground as the specialize in this and use low force.

Hey what do you guys think about the Chiropractic Internist program? It seems like it really puts the DC in the position to be a full scope DC.
Jimmy Johnson

Aurora, CO

#18 Nov 27, 2009
I agree Ginglenutz. That's been my point and that's what the education focuses on--being able to identify a patient in the middle of a stroke. But to be fair, very often there aren't symptoms yet because the patient is in the early signs of their stroke. Once they are farther along they often have visual changes, a headache like they've never experienced, etc. and that is much easier to identify. It appears from the research the GP's are not able to identify the early signs of a stroke at a bit higher rate than chiropractors. It just goes to show how difficult it is to differentiate some of the early stroke signs from simple tension headache and other seemingly minor symptoms.

Informed consent is an interesting issue. Should a chiropractor have to have a patient sign a form specifically about the risks of a stroke? With the most recent research probably not but I would recommend they do and incorporate the recent research in the form. And why not have every medical doctor who treats a patient with symptoms that could be confused with an early course of a stroke have their patients sign a form outlining the remote possibility they could be misdiagnosing their possible stroke? But that brings up a another question--shouldn't medical doctors have to have a patient sign a form outlining the possible complications and possibility of death from each drug they prescribe? The research is clear about the deaths from many of these drugs. Yet, we don't see the chiropractic critics demand this--which clearly causes deaths vs. an issue we are discussing here that the research shows chiropractors don't cause but, like their medical colleagues, may misdiagnose.
tom

Minneapolis, MN

#19 Nov 27, 2009
Wizzyboy posts: >>"nutz" said, "The reason you use this forum to do this, is because if you did in public, you would be sued and loose your license if you indeed do posses one."<<

I disagree with Giglenutz on this.....Wizzy's pathologically obsessive presence here-- is because he is regarded as a misfit "in public"/real world.


His rants are so pathetic, that in the real, "in public" world, he is ignored and dimissed.
Misfits "in public"/real world,..... are able to create a pseudo-sense of self-importance by cyber stalking...... Wizzy can create here, any identity he fantisizes(eg. pedophiles have assumed cyber-identities of 14 yo children!) and ***cleverly MANIPULATE the forum to make him the center of attention*****-----something he obsessively craves, and is unable command "in public". In fact- Wizzy's obsessive presence here has nothing to do with chiropractic, or any aspect of chiropractic. Instead, it is all about the self-gratifying ATTENTION he gets when he posts his inflammatory nonsense. It's ALL about the ATTENTION!!

Additionally, the volume and content of Wizzy's posts compel any rational observer to conclude that Wizzy, does not/cannot be licensed in any profession. I do consider him "certifiable" though!!

The internet is infested with misfits........http://www.buki sa.com/articles/147700_cyber-s talking-six-types-of-new-aged- internet-stakler
L Baines

AOL

#20 Nov 27, 2009
Right. Wisdom is a creepy, sick boy. He's very frustrated since he is unable to make a living. He's jealous of me! And I just think that's great. I revel in it. I make a lot of cash each week and Wisdom The Liar can't stand it.
Watch for other rants/tantrums from this loser. Whatever he writes, it will be enterntaining--as clowns usually are. It's fun to see Wisdom The Liar get mad! It' s a little difficult to read his creepy stuff, you know, when he writes about his diaper fetish. He somehow loves baby diapers. Ewwwww. So whatever you do, keep your kids far awary from that creep, Wisdom. A grown man who has a diaper fetish cannot be normal. And make sure your kids hurry back in your house when they get off the yellow school bus. You don't want Wisdom the creep to peek out his window at them, staring at them with his binoculars. Wisdom is not only a liar, but a creep.

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