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Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#1 Oct 12, 2010
AA is a religious cult. Its message of "being powerless" serves nothing but to perpetuate its need to those addicted to this cult. I have been to these stupid meetings-and they don't help someone with their problem. They sell a higher power-tell a person that they can NOT have any of their "former" friends, and try to guide them down the path of a brand NEW dependence-which is AA itself.

I was hoping to get others take on this. For me personally this joke of a mandatory program serves nothing but to convince people that they are complete losers without this cult. It is wrong-it shouldn't be mandated by govt-and I simply can not stand it.

Anyway agree? or have thoughts? I am sure I will get some "friends of bill w" on here spattering their pre programmed rhetoric about your higher power could be a rock-etc...

But that isnt what I am looking for. I am truly looking for things that empower and help people. Making someone believe that they are a strong and good person is more important than taking all of their personal strength away. With a success rate of less than 5%, AA has the same success rate as no program at all for people with addictions.

Thoughts?

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#2 Oct 12, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
AA is a religious cult. Its message of "being powerless" serves nothing but to perpetuate its need to those addicted to this cult. I have been to these stupid meetings-and they don't help someone with their problem. They sell a higher power-tell a person that they can NOT have any of their "former" friends, and try to guide them down the path of a brand NEW dependence-which is AA itself.
I was hoping to get others take on this. For me personally this joke of a mandatory program serves nothing but to convince people that they are complete losers without this cult. It is wrong-it shouldn't be mandated by govt-and I simply can not stand it.
Anyway agree? or have thoughts? I am sure I will get some "friends of bill w" on here spattering their pre programmed rhetoric about your higher power could be a rock-etc...
But that isnt what I am looking for. I am truly looking for things that empower and help people. Making someone believe that they are a strong and good person is more important than taking all of their personal strength away. With a success rate of less than 5%, AA has the same success rate as no program at all for people with addictions.
Thoughts?
You're pretty much dead-nuts on. I think most of the people that go there are well-meaning but the organization's leadership and the dogmatic Big-Book thumpers make it as you describe.
Check out the "Alcoholics Anonymous-Does It Work" thread, much of this has been/is being discussed.
Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#3 Oct 12, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
You're pretty much dead-nuts on. I think most of the people that go there are well-meaning but the organization's leadership and the dogmatic Big-Book thumpers make it as you describe.
Check out the "Alcoholics Anonymous-Does It Work" thread, much of this has been/is being discussed.
Thanks. Glad I am not the only one. I read on line and watched a Penn and Teller video from their show BS that summed up my feelings.

Also-I agree that most of the people are well meaning. I just think that anything that teaches you to be weak and feeble does nothing to help anyone. It is strength that helps. It is your own personal strength (or SELF esteem) that helps people thru life. Being taught to give up those values (and all of your friends) is something that JIM JONES would prescribe and I hate it.

Thanks again-will check out the thread.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#4 Oct 13, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks. Glad I am not the only one. I read on line and watched a Penn and Teller video from their show BS that summed up my feelings.
Also-I agree that most of the people are well meaning. I just think that anything that teaches you to be weak and feeble does nothing to help anyone. It is strength that helps. It is your own personal strength (or SELF esteem) that helps people thru life. Being taught to give up those values (and all of your friends) is something that JIM JONES would prescribe and I hate it.
Thanks again-will check out the thread.
Yeah, I saw that Penn & Teller too...and if you want another great laugh, look up the "Bloody Mary" episode of South Park. Possibly the best satire of AA I've ever seen.
You're dead-nuts on again...to overcome an addiction you have to find power, the conviction that you're stronger than whatever you are addicted to. Teaching someone that is TRULY addicted (many steppers are just so in love with the cult as a way of life that they convince themselves they are) that they are weak and powerless is the absolute worse thing you could do to them.
Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#5 Oct 13, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I saw that Penn & Teller too...and if you want another great laugh, look up the "Bloody Mary" episode of South Park. Possibly the best satire of AA I've ever seen.
You're dead-nuts on again...to overcome an addiction you have to find power, the conviction that you're stronger than whatever you are addicted to. Teaching someone that is TRULY addicted (many steppers are just so in love with the cult as a way of life that they convince themselves they are) that they are weak and powerless is the absolute worse thing you could do to them.
Thanks for the reply!

I watched that episode of south park-PERFECT! I like how his higher power was considered false-and then everyone in AA had to have a drink-because after all they are powerless.

If a cartoon can explain it-why can't our system see that AA promotes the problem it sets out to create?

It is about discipline. I wonder how many AAers fall off of the wagon and go way over the edge simply because they convince themselves that they are "powerless"? I bet the number of deaths caused by powerlessness is much higher than those who decide they are powerFUL!

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#6 Oct 13, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
<quoted text>
I wonder how many AAers fall off of the wagon and go way over the edge simply because they convince themselves that they are "powerless"? I bet the number of deaths caused by powerlessness is much higher than those who decide they are powerFUL!
Many. AA keeps people in a constant state of fear by telling them they must fully submit to the cult or die an alcoholic death, and all too often this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's also unhealthy how much status they give to those with "time"...when they slip, they're more likely to go on a complete, destructive bender because they lost all of their status as well as being told they'd go off the deep end. I grew up around the program from the age of 10 and have seen several deaths and suicides because if this pattern of thinking.
Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#7 Oct 13, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Many. AA keeps people in a constant state of fear by telling them they must fully submit to the cult or die an alcoholic death, and all too often this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's also unhealthy how much status they give to those with "time"...when they slip, they're more likely to go on a complete, destructive bender because they lost all of their status as well as being told they'd go off the deep end. I grew up around the program from the age of 10 and have seen several deaths and suicides because if this pattern of thinking.
I have noticed how much emphasis is put on the time of sobriety. "hi, I am john do and I have 100 years of sobriety" is always followed by claps, praise, and an almost theatre award style bow or endorsement of the crowd.

You make a point I hadnt thought about. With AA being your whole life (as a long term hardcore would), then the fall from grace (or perhaps just a beer at a game) would spell ruin to your perfect record and amazing "status" - since when is fixing a very personal problem supposed to be about clout and status?

Another thought-how many of these clowns have relapsed during their supposed "40 year sober" routine and then just kept it a secret in order to keep their clout? I guarantee there are ALOT!

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#8 Oct 13, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
<quoted text>
I have noticed how much emphasis is put on the time of sobriety. "hi, I am john do and I have 100 years of sobriety" is always followed by claps, praise, and an almost theatre award style bow or endorsement of the crowd.
Yes, and the person always credits it to AA and their "Higher Power", never themselves...yet whenever someone fails it's completely their fault.
Dolcey wrote:
<quoted text>You make a point I hadnt thought about. With AA being your whole life (as a long term hardcore would), then the fall from grace (or perhaps just a beer at a game) would spell ruin to your perfect record and amazing "status" - since when is fixing a very personal problem supposed to be about clout and status?
I know...I've observed that many of these oldtimers, that are seen as so wise and "spiritual", have accomplished very little in their lives...low-paying unskilled jobs and frequent unemployment, endless failed marriages and relationships, yet in their little world they're seen as leaders and experts and even gurus. Self-deception.
Dolcey wrote:
<quoted text>Another thought-how many of these clowns have relapsed during their supposed "40 year sober" routine and then just kept it a secret in order to keep their clout? I guarantee there are ALOT!
Hard to say. I have seen it happen.
Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#9 Oct 13, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, and the person always credits it to AA and their "Higher Power", never themselves...yet whenever someone fails it's completely their fault.
When someone is training to climb a mountain or do a marathon they prepare. They use discipline and hard work. They also are telling themselves "I CAN DO THIS"-or a trainer is telling them "ONE MORE-YOU CAN DO THIS-ONE MORE REP"-or whatever the case may be. You don't climb Everest by telling yourself that you are "powerless" and rely on the "higher power" to get you to the top!

If you used AA to conquer a task such as this you would simply go to "AA CLIMBING" meetings and the higher power would take you right to the top and back. AND-if you failed to summit-well then you would obviously DIE! It is your fault not the meetings!
I know...I've observed that many of these oldtimers, that are seen as so wise and "spiritual", have accomplished very little in their lives...low-paying unskilled jobs and frequent unemployment, endless failed marriages and relationships, yet in their little world they're seen as leaders and experts and even gurus. Self-deception.
<quoted text>
Hard to say. I have seen it happen.
I have noticed this too. As a matter of fact-what I like to say is it is failure breeds failure. If you look around these rooms and see people that you absolutely do NOT want to be like, you notice how they are prone to failure in all aspects of their lives. Of course there are successful people here and there at certain meetings. It is by far a larger number of failures that come to the meetings.

When you want to succeed in business, for example; you don't go around and assemble a bunch of street bums to discuss how to obtain your financial freedom. The same could be said with AA.
Nycbigdog

Burlington, Canada

#10 Oct 17, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
AA is a religious cult. Its message of "being powerless" serves nothing but to perpetuate its need to those addicted to this cult. I have been to these stupid meetings-and they don't help someone with their problem. They sell a higher power-tell a person that they can NOT have any of their "former" friends, and try to guide them down the path of a brand NEW dependence-which is AA itself.
I was hoping to get others take on this. For me personally this joke of a mandatory program serves nothing but to convince people that they are complete losers without this cult. It is wrong-it shouldn't be mandated by govt-and I simply can not stand it.
Anyway agree? or have thoughts? I am sure I will get some "friends of bill w" on here spattering their pre programmed rhetoric about your higher power could be a rock-etc...
But that isnt what I am looking for. I am truly looking for things that empower and help people. Making someone believe that they are a strong and good person is more important than taking all of their personal strength away. With a success rate of less than 5%, AA has the same success rate as no program at all for people with addictions.
Thoughts?
Agree AA is a huge intellectual fraud that can be traced to Germany in the thirties. The guys who bombed the WTC had surrendered to their higher power...Allah! AA is Unamerican. As Patrick Henry says give me liberty or give me death.
Dolcey

Seattle, WA

#11 Oct 19, 2010
Nycbigdog wrote:
<quoted text> Agree AA is a huge intellectual fraud that can be traced to Germany in the thirties. The guys who bombed the WTC had surrendered to their higher power...Allah! AA is Unamerican. As Patrick Henry says give me liberty or give me death.
I agree with the sentiments about liberty. I also feel that this sort of forced group chatter is nothing more than garbled heresay. If someone truly is hurting from an addiction I don't see hanging out in a room full of others who are in horrible condition as being a saving grace.

If you want to heal a seroius problem you need serious counseling and professional advice. Recognizing your patterns, triggers etc for an addiction are more important than going to some annoying group meeting with a bunch of failures. No offense to those that AA works for, but seriously if states are going to mandate something that is supposed to help your life than it should actually be something that works. Forcing someone into a religious cult for some sort of "spiritual" help doesnt necessarily fix the problem.
Nycbigdog

Burlington, Canada

#12 Nov 13, 2010
The issues pertaiming to AA are very real and it is a clever organization that knows how to survive and stay out of the public focus. Those who are less educated or suffer from very serious mental illness will be entraped by the social-phscological powers of this group. For most unfortunately it will lead to their physical, intellectual or spiritual death. Given the scope of the political agenda and quality of politicians I sadly conclude that this will not be a matter of urgency for some time to come.If ever.

If leadership is required. Then it should come from the medical or legal professions. Again it seems the attitude leans toward a good drunk is either sleeping or dead. Very Sad.

Mandating AA is perverse. Save for mental illness we need to teach people to think, work hard, be diciplined and generally more aware of external and internal cognitive process. Build good habits and disciplines with an understanding of group word power in all respects should help. However we are a society that is reluctant to teach thinking skills so are what we are on Wall St and Washington as well. Don't expect either to change any time soon too.

Many tears in the mild eyes of The New Colossus that guards the waters to our spirit. Some day soon I hope someone will again rise to carry the beacon torch. So that again,,, it may be passed to our tomorrows.
Dolcey

Renton, WA

#13 Dec 21, 2010
Nycbigdog wrote:
The issues pertaiming to AA are very real and it is a clever organization that knows how to survive and stay out of the public focus. Those who are less educated or suffer from very serious mental illness will be entraped by the social-phscological powers of this group. For most unfortunately it will lead to their physical, intellectual or spiritual death. Given the scope of the political agenda and quality of politicians I sadly conclude that this will not be a matter of urgency for some time to come.If ever.
If leadership is required. Then it should come from the medical or legal professions. Again it seems the attitude leans toward a good drunk is either sleeping or dead. Very Sad.
Mandating AA is perverse. Save for mental illness we need to teach people to think, work hard, be diciplined and generally more aware of external and internal cognitive process. Build good habits and disciplines with an understanding of group word power in all respects should help. However we are a society that is reluctant to teach thinking skills so are what we are on Wall St and Washington as well. Don't expect either to change any time soon too.
Many tears in the mild eyes of The New Colossus that guards the waters to our spirit. Some day soon I hope someone will again rise to carry the beacon torch. So that again,,, it may be passed to our tomorrows.
WOW! First off-well written!

AA is a very clever organization. It espouses its "non profit" status under the guise of govt forced treatment centers that gross over 10 billion a year. AA also has support from govt and other agencies which PAY MONEY! So-for the "free meeting" you have a loss of rights and choices! There are medical studies and books taught at the likes of harvard (and other respected medical institutions) that point their respective guns directly on the problem.

A short example is that if you go to a doctor and have a (REAL) disease, the doctor will point to a myriad of possible treatments for your particular case. If the doctor merely said "There is only one way to cure your liver cancer, and it is to pray and go to meetings with others" you would run your ass right out of his office and never come back! At the same time, if a doctor stated if you want to follow these other (proven) treatments that you are in fact "in denial" you would probably want to find an attorney and check his qualifications to practice medicine! Treatment centers are not privy to the same laws and regulations as other forms of (proven) treatment. In essence-the AA cult is some sort of a ghost or apparition to the govt: yet the same govt forces individuals into this program as a "treatment" and their only option is jail. Imagine if a doctor stated that you can either have the ONE cure he says-OR you can go to jail for your disease!

I speak from experience. I personally fall into the dui offender who has had no options other than treatment based AA (or AA based treatment, actually the same). I started off scared and naive in this situation. I always had stated that AA is religious based and that treatment should be non-religious. That talk can get you written up for non-compliance. So-the best to do is to fake it til you make it-which for me as an EMPOWERED person is very difficult. Of course I must be in "denial" right? Others have to decide whats best for me-even though I am with myself most of my life and really the problems are only solved by me and not some group of losers!

Keep coming back-it works if your worthless...

Nice post-thanks!
Steve Rogalinski

Allentown, PA

#14 Dec 26, 2010
Dolcey wrote:
AA is a religious cult. Its message of "being powerless" serves nothing but to perpetuate its need to those addicted to this cult. I have been to these stupid meetings-and they don't help someone with their problem. They sell a higher power-tell a person that they can NOT have any of their "former" friends, and try to guide them down the path of a brand NEW dependence-which is AA itself.
I was hoping to get others take on this. For me personally this joke of a mandatory program serves nothing but to convince people that they are complete losers without this cult. It is wrong-it shouldn't be mandated by govt-and I simply can not stand it.
Anyway agree? or have thoughts? I am sure I will get some "friends of bill w" on here spattering their pre programmed rhetoric about your higher power could be a rock-etc...
But that isnt what I am looking for. I am truly looking for things that empower and help people. Making someone believe that they are a strong and good person is more important than taking all of their personal strength away. With a success rate of less than 5%, AA has the same success rate as no program at all for people with addictions.
Thoughts?
Wow, I so so so disagree with you. But I admit, I was also a doubter. AA not only saved my life, it has transformed it. I now feel like I am an asset to my friends and family rather than a liability.
AA is a program of attraction, not promotion. AA never seeks out members. I am so grateful to Alcoholics Anonymous. But if it's not for you, that's OK too.
nycbigdog

Hamilton, Canada

#15 Dec 27, 2010
Steve Rogalinski wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, I so so so disagree with you. But I admit, I was also a doubter. AA not only saved my life, it has transformed it. I now feel like I am an asset to my friends and family rather than a liability.
AA is a program of attraction, not promotion. AA never seeks out members. I am so grateful to Alcoholics Anonymous. But if it's not for you, that's OK too.
Boy do I feel sorry for you as a fellow human being. Anytime you see someone who gives up the hard won concept of liberty to the contradictory and intellectually bankrupt propaganda machine of AA brings a tear to my heart.It is also sad because one day you will face the bitter reality of its lies.It the meantime you deprive liberty of a voice and throw away so blindly what so many of our fore bearers believed and died for.You are now a liability to freedom and the future of its promise by condoning the expansion of a dangerous cult that has lead so many to their early deaths.
You need to revisit the definition of promotion and bring your literacy to a college level. If you cannot comprehend that AA's tactics such as the 12 steps and repetitive mantra are clear promotional tools than there is little hope in achieving a broad intelligent and objective discourse here. Nor should you ignore the constant barrage of media ads seen daily on television.That's not promotion?
My friend you are in Jonestown. Do not drink the orange juice regardless of what the doctor says. That's life.That's LIBERTY!
I really hope you understand and pass her torch to all the people you know and become a true asset for them today. And then a great example to future generations.

“I'm beautiful like me”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#16 Jan 2, 2011
"To each, their own" is my opinion.My mother is a recovering alcoholic. I call her an AA "nazi" because she is so involved in her program. We laugh about it all the time. She has been sober for about 5 years now I believe, she was a really bad physical and verbal abuser when she was drinking. She got into AA and has been sober ever since.:) So say what you will about AA and how it is a cult, but it's the only thing keeping my mom sober today. Personally I don't care because I still have my mom, amazing as ever, in my life today, SOBER.:)
Nycbigdog

Hamilton, Canada

#17 Jan 3, 2011
CDizzle1986 wrote:
"To each, their own" is my opinion.My mother is a recovering alcoholic. I call her an AA "nazi" because she is so involved in her program. We laugh about it all the time. She has been sober for about 5 years now I believe, she was a really bad physical and verbal abuser when she was drinking. She got into AA and has been sober ever since.:) So say what you will about AA and how it is a cult, but it's the only thing keeping my mom sober today. Personally I don't care because I still have my mom, amazing as ever, in my life today, SOBER.:)
Your chioce of the word "NAZI"underscores the shallowness of this discouse and why the sons and daughters of freedom that carry a powerful torch will never surrender to mystical abstracts of unholy virtue. It remains our humble calling of gentle nature to take arms against forces that employ physical or conceptual "concentration camps"(sic)which destroy the utter fabric of civility and the lives of so many.

Our Torch. Our Voice. Is the voice of reason. The voice of truth. The voice of passion for our fellows and the greater purpses of the human condition.

So let it be known that we will touch the hearts of gods. Look into the eyes of many devils. Let them know. Let them know the torch of liberty will prevail and beacon brightly after the last eternity to our sons and daughters.

So,let friend and foe alike know the perpetual passion and strength of our gentle cause. Let them know.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#18 Jan 3, 2011
CDizzle1986 wrote:
"To each, their own" is my opinion.My mother is a recovering alcoholic. I call her an AA "nazi" because she is so involved in her program. We laugh about it all the time. She has been sober for about 5 years now I believe, she was a really bad physical and verbal abuser when she was drinking. She got into AA and has been sober ever since.:) So say what you will about AA and how it is a cult, but it's the only thing keeping my mom sober today. Personally I don't care because I still have my mom, amazing as ever, in my life today, SOBER.:)
Your mom is keeping herself sober...all of the available evidence says so. AA is like Dumbo's magic feather.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#19 Jan 10, 2011
nycbigdog wrote:
<quoted text>
Boy do I feel sorry for you as a fellow human being. Anytime you see someone who gives up the hard won concept of liberty to the contradictory and intellectually bankrupt propaganda machine of AA brings a tear to my heart.It is also sad because one day you will face the bitter reality of its lies.It the meantime you deprive liberty of a voice and throw away so blindly what so many of our fore bearers believed and died for.You are now a liability to freedom and the future of its promise by condoning the expansion of a dangerous cult that has lead so many to their early deaths.
You need to revisit the definition of promotion and bring your literacy to a college level. If you cannot comprehend that AA's tactics such as the 12 steps and repetitive mantra are clear promotional tools than there is little hope in achieving a broad intelligent and objective discourse here. Nor should you ignore the constant barrage of media ads seen daily on television.That's not promotion?
My friend you are in Jonestown. Do not drink the orange juice regardless of what the doctor says. That's life.That's LIBERTY!
I really hope you understand and pass her torch to all the people you know and become a true asset for them today. And then a great example to future generations.
Anytime you take away a person's ability to choose what works for them, you are taking away their LIBERTY... God bots in this county have propagated far worse than an anonymous group that offers help. Your post is BS, and your references to freedom and liberty are a farce.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#20 Jan 10, 2011
Nycbigdog wrote:
<quoted text>Your chioce of the word "NAZI"underscores the shallowness of this discouse and why the sons and daughters of freedom that carry a powerful torch will never surrender to mystical abstracts of unholy virtue. It remains our humble calling of gentle nature to take arms against forces that employ physical or conceptual "concentration camps"(sic)which destroy the utter fabric of civility and the lives of so many.
Our Torch. Our Voice. Is the voice of reason. The voice of truth. The voice of passion for our fellows and the greater purpses of the human condition.
So let it be known that we will touch the hearts of gods. Look into the eyes of many devils. Let them know. Let them know the torch of liberty will prevail and beacon brightly after the last eternity to our sons and daughters.
So,let friend and foe alike know the perpetual passion and strength of our gentle cause. Let them know.
This makes no sense- you are full of sh!$

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