Living with a recovering alcoholic

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#61 Nov 2, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
o.k. heres one for you, show me what you can do with this slogan. I am very curious what you and headhunter can each do with it.
GOD, GRANT ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE
THE COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN
AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
Now tell us all the outrageous and cultish things you can about this and how it ruins people ..
also i would like to know what exactly you think it means?
The serenity prayer is not an AA slogan. It is recited at every AA meeting, but it pre-dates the program.
I'm not going to attack it but it does fall in line with the AA philosophy of relying on a super-natural being. On a positive note, it does include some level of personal responsibility (to change the things I can).

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#62 Nov 2, 2009
mickey wrote:
<quoted text>
Isnít it amazing Headhunter how the illogical thinking of the brainwashed A.A. member makes them try to make you feel guilty with their shame tactics? Any rational, functional, mature individual knows that no one can change another rational, mature personís mind. All they understand is that they can manipulate vulnerable individuals into their way of thinking. They just canít understand that functional people donít fall for their abuse, propaganda and manipulation. Sorry tomo1164, but youíre the one with the resentment and were not buying into your B.S.
Anyone that disagrees is "in denial" or a "dry drunk". Shows the cultish nature.
mickey

Peterborough, Canada

#63 Nov 2, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
Well i certainly understand not buying into bullshit, if in fact i was selling some.. You really got some serious issues goin on there mickey.. Why in the world would a functional ,mature and rational person keep going to such meetings if this is what they thought of them each and every time for 27 years? according to you , everyone that has ever attended AA meetings are assholes and have been scripted and brainwashed into some sort of guilt and shame...Were they assholes when they first walked in, or did it occur some time after the scripts started kicking in? Let me ask you something mickey. Were you the only person there that was'nt an asshole at each and everyone of these meetings for 27 years? WOW ! What are the odds? What category would you place your self into mickey? Are you recovering alcoholic? Umm or just some one that thought they were alcoholic? Or you never had a problem at all and some one just made you think you had a problem? Why did you go in the first place? What made you finally stop if you in fact had a problem? If you have a problem, what was it? Are you on any medication at all? Do you see a psychologist? What exactly ails you mickey, Besides the fact that you hate AA and all AA assholes? lol If you can get through this with out any sarcasm towards me and with out judgeing me before you know my past and present situation then i will tell you a little about my self and would like to know what has ailed me for virtually my whole life. if you dont mind..
Well I have to agree with you tomo1164 I do have some serious issues going on. Youíre right; a functional, mature and rational person would not keep going to such meetings if this is what they thought of them each and every time for 27 years? And yes, I was an asshole and had been scripted and brainwashed by guilt and shame in A.A. and fear by the Dr. that told me I was an alcoholic and that A.A. was the only help he could offer. So being an immature, irrational, dysfunctional adult child of an alcoholic, I bought into the manipulation and abuse they used on me because it was familiar and was all I understood.
Am I a recovering alcoholic? The answer is no, I am a recovered alcoholic. Was I someone that thought they were an alcoholic? Yes, I was told by a physician that was A.A. indoctrinated that I was and I passed A.A.s so called 20 questions that were supposed to be proof that I was. I actually answered 18 out of 20 of them. What made me stop? I was the kind of drunken asshole that couldnít stop drinking and driving. I never had a dwi but I never knew how I drove home or if the car was in one piece. I finally quit because I had visions of waking up one morning and finding out that my wife and kids were in pieces because of my drunk driving. What is even worse is the nightmares of hitting someone else and having their kidís body parts all over the road because of my bad behavior. Yes, I did see a psychiatrist; I suffered from depression, anxiety, and ocd. In terms of psychology, I was very close to being a sociopath. So why did I quit? Because I was tired of doing stupid things, I hated myself, I wanted my family to have a better life than I had growing up and I matured out of the partying lifestyle. I think that about answers most of your questions.
mickey

Peterborough, Canada

#64 Nov 2, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
Wouldnt doing the same things over and over again with the same results be considered something that is extremely foolish? Maybe that guy didnt quote right out of the dictionary, but did he actually same something that is at least the same meaning and really really come on now,your going to pull things apart like that and pretty much make him a liar because he didnt say all the exact stuff. It is insane to keep doing the same things over and over again with the same result, if you are looking for a different one at least. What were you looking for mickey? 27 yrs and the same result? hhhmmmmm
Clinicians and psychologist feel that old conflicts are a basis for people to resolve their conflicting issues. In the alcoholic home, the family acts out in the same manner over and over again in their attempt to resolve the conflicts and try to ďget it right.Ē In A.A. this phenomenon has become an accepted standard definition of insanity caused by the disease of alcoholism.(Children of alcoholism: the struggle for self and intimacy in adult life By Barbara L. Wood) Here again is another prime example of how A.A. has misinterpreted crucial information needed for successful recovery from past abuse issues. This type of misinformation only serves to keep the alcohol abuser in denial and the cycle of dysfunction alive. Besides that, you totally missed the point; I have heard that quote in A.A. meeting in every province I have attended an A.A. meeting at, by all kinds of different people. They all said it was from the dictionary. The point is that they donít do any research and apparently keep doing it over and over again with the same result, getting misinformation. And no itís not insane. Itís dysfunctional to do the same things over and over again with the same results, if you have been manipulated by an alcoholic or abusive parent into believing if you do certain thinks that you will be loved. Children that grew up in abusive or alcoholic homes are dysfunctional and they carry that dysfunction with them throughout their lives. Adult children of alcoholic or abusive homes need to figure out their past abuse and how it affected them and A.A. doesnít offer that, so how can they not help but keep doing the same things over and over again? I was looking for the answer to why I did the things I did and I found it, but it wasnít in A.A., it was in therapy for ACOA issues, proper treatment for anxiety and depression and my bad behavior disappeared. Oh and that so called uncontrollable urge to drink, turns out it was excessive anxiety.
mickey

Peterborough, Canada

#65 Nov 2, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
What is really going on here with this forum anyway? Is there just a bunch of bashing, twisting, judging, is this designed to aid anyone at all? or just to go on bashing everything thats said and trying to persuade people in other directions. Should have named this the AA and all of its assholes being bashed forum... hey mickey, you only got 2 yrs of sobriety out of 27 yrs of meetings? was that consecutive years? Your first AA meeting experience was 27 yrs ago and your attitude apparently carryed through to each and everyone there after. Looks like it still hasnt changed.. only youve added some resenting and vengefullness to it. Did you have alot of fun with your drinking, what kind of drunk were you?
Is this an A.A. bashing forum? I guess it is if youíre A.A. indoctrinated and believe in the Minnesota Model of addiction and the Medical Modal of addiction that A.A. uses,(i.e. that alcoholism is an incurable disease) then it would seem that way. However, if your one of the 95% that have tried A.A. and found it ridiculous, cultist or just found no matter how much you did the steps it didnít work, then it is a way to find out what other methods are available. There are a large number of alternative groups available and I am sure that Headhunter 300M or I would be more than happy to offer you or anyone else that asks a list of sites and contacts. There is also the option of simply doing it yourself like I eventually did and I am quite willing to offer a list of professionals and reading material that I used. As for my sobriety over 27 years at various times, 11 month the first time, then my sponsor took me out and tried to talk me into drinking, because that was what everyone did. To prove it, he called 4 other members that were going regularly to meeting and they all came out to drink with him. Obviously A.A. appeared to be a lie to me so I quit going and drank. Next time I tried was a different town, same province. Made four month, all old timers and all I ever heard was that they spilled more than I ever drank. So I went back out. Next time, different province, 2 years, was hit on by every 13 stepping female in the program and my sponsor tried to get me to sleep with his wife. Too darn dysfunctional for me. The last time I was 5 months sober, my sponsor and his wife wanted me to take over the meetings so they could move on, I told them I couldnít and they told me I had to so I could show my gratitude. I left, but this time I was also seeing a psychiatrist, had been reading ACOA books, took a couple of addiction counseling courses and was reading anything but A.A. literature and finding out the truth about alcoholism. Did I have fun when I drank? If I was drunk, I thought I was having fun. Was I having fun, no. I was a loud, obnoxious, abusive, asshole drunk. So there, I think I have answered your questions without any sarcasm.
mickey

Peterborough, Canada

#66 Nov 2, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
o.k. heres one for you, show me what you can do with this slogan. I am very curious what you and headhunter can each do with it.
GOD, GRANT ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE
THE COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN
AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
Now tell us all the outrageous and cultish things you can about this and how it ruins people ..
also i would like to know what exactly you think it means?
The Serenity Prayer is the common name for an originally untitled prayer, most commonly attributed to the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr. The prayer has been adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous and other twelve-step programs. In 2008, Yale Book of Quotations editor Fred R. Shapiro published evidence that a version of the prayer existed by 1936. Shapiro believes that this casts doubt on Niebuhr's authorship of the prayer.
You can read the rest here.(Serenity Prayer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer )
Like Headhunter said, itís not a slogan, itís a prayer. I donít use the prayer anymore, but just to play along with you, Iíll tell you this. It means I can be quite peaceful in knowing that I canít change your mind or anyone elseís mind for that matter. Only they can do that. It means that I can stand up and say the things I believe in and I can help change the unfounded belief that alcoholism is a disease and that people need to remain in recovery and attend meetings for the rest of their lives in order to stay sober. So you see, I do have the wisdom to know the difference.

“look up and laugh”

Since: Jun 08

guess, where

#67 Nov 3, 2009
HEADHUNTER: do you happen to know if there is Rational Recovery in Missouri.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#68 Nov 3, 2009
jdmdusa wrote:
HEADHUNTER: do you happen to know if there is Rational Recovery in Missouri.
Rational Recovery no longer has meetings, it hasn't for years. Jack Trimpey saw that too many people were becoming dependent on meetings, didn't want it to become another AA (The idea with RR is to actually recover) so he disbanded it. They do offer ongoing on-line support, but I would recommend just buying the book and if you feel you need socialization, see if there are any SMART meetings in your area. They use and teach similiar techniques.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#69 Nov 3, 2009
http://www.smartrecovery.org/meetings_db/view...

The Missouri meetings appear closed to patients at the VA hospital, but there are contact phone numbers...perhaps someone can direct you...perhaps you can help start one in your area!
mickey

Havelock, Canada

#70 Nov 3, 2009
tomo1164 wrote:
Well i certainly understand not buying into bullshit, if in fact i was selling some.. You really got some serious issues goin on there mickey.. Why in the world would a functional ,mature and rational person keep going to such meetings if this is what they thought of them each and every time for 27 years? according to you , everyone that has ever attended AA meetings are assholes and have been scripted and brainwashed into some sort of guilt and shame...Were they assholes when they first walked in, or did it occur some time after the scripts started kicking in? Let me ask you something mickey. Were you the only person there that was'nt an asshole at each and everyone of these meetings for 27 years? WOW ! What are the odds? What category would you place your self into mickey? Are you recovering alcoholic? Umm or just some one that thought they were alcoholic? Or you never had a problem at all and some one just made you think you had a problem? Why did you go in the first place? What made you finally stop if you in fact had a problem? If you have a problem, what was it? Are you on any medication at all? Do you see a psychologist? What exactly ails you mickey, Besides the fact that you hate AA and all AA assholes? lol If you can get through this with out any sarcasm towards me and with out judgeing me before you know my past and present situation then i will tell you a little about my self and would like to know what has ailed me for virtually my whole life. if you dont mind..
Ok so now I answered all your questions, so letís go back and talk about how you asked them. Right from the start you used A.A. dogmatic thinking and mixed it up with your manipulative techniques. Isnít everyone told that the door swings both ways in A.A.? Are they not told if it doesnít work the first time then you should go back out and practice some more, because everyone in A.A. is positive you will be back? I donít think you can disagree with that, because everyone in A.A. repeats the same script. Then you asked me if I was an alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic, if someone told me I was an alcoholic or if thought I was an alcoholic, and even suggested I was maybe mentally deranged. Talk about devious, inflexible, controlling and manipulative doublespeak. You turned all of youíre A.A. teachings inside out and used them to try and shame me into thinking there was something wrong with me. Does A.A. not tell you that are only an alcoholic if you say you are an alcoholic? You never call someone else an alcoholic, only they can say they are an alcoholic. What a magnificent, marvelous disease, you can only have it if you say you have it. And it is so wonderful, because if someone recovers from their alcohol abuse on their own and a figure out it isnít a disease, then they never really had it anyway. That is the wonderful power of manipulation, you double standard everything you say and use it to prove your point. As for doing the same thing over and over again, isnít that what you do in A.A.? Are you not told that when you complete the steps go back and do them again, because itís a life long disease and you must continuously redo everything in order to stay sober? Thatís not recovery; itís inflexible and devious thinking used by cults to keep you occupied and believing you canít live without their lifestyle. And as for your Serenity Prayer and all the slogans they use, it is called groupthink. Keep the members thinking about useless, meaningless ideas or thoughts and they wonít have time to see what is really happening around them. Groupthink is the most used and best understood tool used by cults and the easiest way to recognize a group as a cult. Oh, by the way, I enjoyed our little discussion. I have never ever learned anything from someone that agrees with me.
Recoveingmyself

Groton, CT

#71 Nov 3, 2009
I am an engineer and I have recently realized that I am an alcoholic. I tell you I'm an engineer because its how my mind works. I am always trying to figure out what makes things tick. See alot of recovering alcoholics experience near bipolar mood swings, they cannot socialize and they often lash out at those they love. They are in alot of pain. People take this to be the result of a chemical imbalance that they had that was treated by alcohol, othewise known as "self medication". This is FAR from the truth. Alcoholism can strike anyone just like nicotine or heroin. What happens as in the case of all physical addictions is the brain stops producing the happy endorphines that trigger feeling good, energetic and creative. Alcohol is nothing more than artificial happiness. The mind takes the path of least resistance... If I can drink happy, I don't have to make happy. When an alcoholic, or any addict, quits it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to be happy or satisfied. Numb is the best they can do. Wait, because eventually the mind can return to functioning properly and make the chemicals that cause the physiological response of joy.
Elle63

Atlanta, GA

#72 Nov 3, 2009
Recoveingmyself wrote:
I am an engineer and I have recently realized that I am an alcoholic. I tell you I'm an engineer because its how my mind works. I am always trying to figure out what makes things tick. See alot of recovering alcoholics experience near bipolar mood swings, they cannot socialize and they often lash out at those they love. They are in alot of pain. People take this to be the result of a chemical imbalance that they had that was treated by alcohol, othewise known as "self medication". This is FAR from the truth. Alcoholism can strike anyone just like nicotine or heroin. What happens as in the case of all physical addictions is the brain stops producing the happy endorphines that trigger feeling good, energetic and creative. Alcohol is nothing more than artificial happiness. The mind takes the path of least resistance... If I can drink happy, I don't have to make happy. When an alcoholic, or any addict, quits it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to be happy or satisfied. Numb is the best they can do. Wait, because eventually the mind can return to functioning properly and make the chemicals that cause the physiological response of joy.
How long does it take?

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#73 Nov 3, 2009
mickey wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok so now I answered all your questions, so letís go back and talk about how you asked them. Right from the start you used A.A. dogmatic thinking and mixed it up with your manipulative techniques. Isnít everyone told that the door swings both ways in A.A.? Are they not told if it doesnít work the first time then you should go back out and practice some more, because everyone in A.A. is positive you will be back? I donít think you can disagree with that, because everyone in A.A. repeats the same script. Then you asked me if I was an alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic, if someone told me I was an alcoholic or if thought I was an alcoholic, and even suggested I was maybe mentally deranged. Talk about devious, inflexible, controlling and manipulative doublespeak. You turned all of youíre A.A. teachings inside out and used them to try and shame me into thinking there was something wrong with me. Does A.A. not tell you that are only an alcoholic if you say you are an alcoholic? You never call someone else an alcoholic, only they can say they are an alcoholic. What a magnificent, marvelous disease, you can only have it if you say you have it. And it is so wonderful, because if someone recovers from their alcohol abuse on their own and a figure out it isnít a disease, then they never really had it anyway. That is the wonderful power of manipulation, you double standard everything you say and use it to prove your point. As for doing the same thing over and over again, isnít that what you do in A.A.? Are you not told that when you complete the steps go back and do them again, because itís a life long disease and you must continuously redo everything in order to stay sober? Thatís not recovery; itís inflexible and devious thinking used by cults to keep you occupied and believing you canít live without their lifestyle. And as for your Serenity Prayer and all the slogans they use, it is called groupthink. Keep the members thinking about useless, meaningless ideas or thoughts and they wonít have time to see what is really happening around them. Groupthink is the most used and best understood tool used by cults and the easiest way to recognize a group as a cult. Oh, by the way, I enjoyed our little discussion. I have never ever learned anything from someone that agrees with me.
Mickey, I'm really enjoying your posts. Very insightful.
mickey

Niagara-on-the-lake, Canada

#74 Nov 4, 2009
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Mickey, I'm really enjoying your posts. Very insightful.
Thank you Headhunter 300M, it is nice to know that I am not alone in the way I feel. I actually find you are very well versed on the subject also and have discovered a lot more valuable information from your posts also.
mickey

Niagara-on-the-lake, Canada

#75 Nov 4, 2009
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Rational Recovery no longer has meetings, it hasn't for years. Jack Trimpey saw that too many people were becoming dependent on meetings, didn't want it to become another AA (The idea with RR is to actually recover) so he disbanded it. They do offer ongoing on-line support, but I would recommend just buying the book and if you feel you need socialization, see if there are any SMART meetings in your area. They use and teach similiar techniques.
I found this very interesting; I didnít know Jack Trimpey had disbanded Rational Recovery. It was bound to happen though, considering that the addiction magnates, treatment moguls, Marty Mann and her obsession with the disease theory and ramming it down the publicís throats through the NCADD for A.A.s best interest that it never happened a long time ago. A.A. and their concept of a life-long disease and life-long meetings has even those that canít accept the A.A. spiritualist program petrified that no matter what type of meeting you go to, you must do it for life. However, I am pleased to see that Jack has file has filed a class-action ethics complaint to NASW, identifying conflict of interest among social workers who are also members of AA/NA or other 12-step organization. Itís about time. I know if the doctor that had sent me to A.A. the first time was still alive, I would have sued him for a violation against my human rights and a whole lot of ethics issues along with it. By the time the real truth about A.A. comes out and the world sees how Bill Wilson conned everyone, I am sure he will go down as the Adolph Hitler of the recovery boom that conned every one for no other purpose than to fill his Narcissistic sociopathic needs. By the way, if you havenít read the ethics complaint yet, you can find it here. Nice piece of work on Jackís part.
http://rational.org/pdf_files/nasw_complaint....

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#76 Nov 4, 2009
mickey wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you Headhunter 300M, it is nice to know that I am not alone in the way I feel. I actually find you are very well versed on the subject also and have discovered a lot more valuable information from your posts also.
My story is posted here (along with a lot of silly arguments):
http://www.topix.com/forum/health/alcoholism/...

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#77 Nov 4, 2009
mickey wrote:
<quoted text>
I found this very interesting; I didnít know Jack Trimpey had disbanded Rational Recovery. It was bound to happen though, considering that the addiction magnates, treatment moguls, Marty Mann and her obsession with the disease theory and ramming it down the publicís throats through the NCADD for A.A.s best interest that it never happened a long time ago. A.A. and their concept of a life-long disease and life-long meetings has even those that canít accept the A.A. spiritualist program petrified that no matter what type of meeting you go to, you must do it for life. However, I am pleased to see that Jack has file has filed a class-action ethics complaint to NASW, identifying conflict of interest among social workers who are also members of AA/NA or other 12-step organization. Itís about time. I know if the doctor that had sent me to A.A. the first time was still alive, I would have sued him for a violation against my human rights and a whole lot of ethics issues along with it. By the time the real truth about A.A. comes out and the world sees how Bill Wilson conned everyone, I am sure he will go down as the Adolph Hitler of the recovery boom that conned every one for no other purpose than to fill his Narcissistic sociopathic needs. By the way, if you havenít read the ethics complaint yet, you can find it here. Nice piece of work on Jackís part.
http://rational.org/pdf_files/nasw_complaint....
Wow, he really spelled it out well...
The NCADD's "studies" are thrown up a lot...peel back the layers and everything they say is invalidated. I'm glad progress is being made toward exposing AA and step-based treatment for what it is, but it still baffles me how in 2009 they still have such a strong-hold on coersive recruiting and bad, even harmful misinformation.
jane G

Vancouver, Canada

#78 Nov 4, 2009
Yeah it just sucks after years of being there for someone, to have them treat you like shit cuz they finally get sober.
I just got sick of getting the shitty end of the stick all the time.
I am happy he is sober. I am also happy that he is not in my life anymore. Dealing with a recovering alcoholic is a bitch and a half.
I couldn't do it anymore. The mood swings, the lashing out at me, I just had enough.
I know it's hard for an alcoholic to face their daemons. and I think it's great that people are helping each other get over their addictions.
It just really sucks for those who are left behind, and stomped on.
mickey

Niagara-on-the-lake, Canada

#79 Nov 4, 2009
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
My story is posted here (along with a lot of silly arguments):
http://www.topix.com/forum/health/alcoholism/...
Headhunter 300M, I read your story and I am impresses me that you were resilient enough to figure out as mush as you have about the A.A. dysfunction. One thing that really struck me was your statement:ďBefore reading further, may I make it clear that I love them and do not blame them for anything, and genuinely appreciate all that theyíve done for me; whether it was good or not.Ē It took me a year and a half to come to the conclusion that even though my parents were dysfunctional, they did the best they could with what was available to them. My father did try A.A. and it didnít work for him either. Up until I was in my thirties, A.A. was all that was available other than the Salvation Army. I also had to consider that my father and mother were both veterans and both suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Back then they called it shell shock. My life with them was rough, but it was nothing compared to what they had been through. No matter what you find in your past childhood, the end result is that you had the choice to change your life after you reached the age of reason. Unfortunately, most of us were just to dysfunctional to see that and never had the resources that are available to help us get there. However, today there are real viable resources all over the internet. Recovery is just a keyboard away if you take the time to do the research. But recovery is a lifetime away if you take the easier softer way of A.A. and call it a disease.
Anyway I would like to share this quote with you because I believe that it is what you have found and like me couldnít put it into words.ďThere are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go.(Richard David Bach)Ē And I think you will like this also. Scientists announced that they have located the gene for alcoholism. Scientists say they found it at a party, standing in a corner being loud and obnoxious.
mickey

Niagara-on-the-lake, Canada

#80 Nov 4, 2009
jane G wrote:
Yeah it just sucks after years of being there for someone, to have them treat you like shit cuz they finally get sober.
I just got sick of getting the shitty end of the stick all the time.
I am happy he is sober. I am also happy that he is not in my life anymore. Dealing with a recovering alcoholic is a bitch and a half.
I couldn't do it anymore. The mood swings, the lashing out at me, I just had enough.
I know it's hard for an alcoholic to face their daemons. and I think it's great that people are helping each other get over their addictions.
It just really sucks for those who are left behind, and stomped on.
Youíre right jane G, it does suck and it goes on every day in A.A. Itís all about the drunk. It has always been about the drunk, whether they are sober or drunk it has to be about them. They are poor pitiful drunks that had a disease and everyone should treat them with kid gloves or they will be bad little boys or girls and go out and drink again if you donít. Sorry you had to leave to keep your sanity. He may be sober but he certainly has been condemned to a life of endless drukalogs and irrational thinking.

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