Should the US have universal healthcare?

[Aquarius-WY]

Ayn of Cunuckistan wrote:

<quoted text>
Single payer IS reality for many citizens in many countries. Why not the U.S.?

Because the US has the finest health care system in the world even with it's problems.
Because the US is the ONLY country that still stands in defiance of ALL the socialist countries in the world.
Because the US is the last defender of personal freedoms and human rights.
Because the US stands alone in her founding principles and leadership out of bondage and tyranny all those citizens in all those other "single payer" countries are mired down in ... again.

[Aquarius-WY]

Ayn of Cunuckistan wrote:

<quoted text>
Except the insane salaries of HealthCare Corps is ANYTHING but benign. It is a symptom of a larger problem that has brought the U.S. to it's knees. GREED!

NO MAAM, it is NOT greed that did it ... it was and still is PRIDE.

[JFTR]

Aquarius-WY wrote:

<quoted text>
NO MAAM, it is NOT greed that did it ... it was and still is PRIDE.

Do you want that idiot back on this thread?

[METALMAN9]

Aquarius-WY wrote:

<quoted text>
The voters wanted change, but the change to Marxist Socialism and communism was NOT part of the bargain. You will see what the voters want next time, and I will bet everything I have that the popular vote will be a far cry from the 51 to 49 it was the last time around.

The whole Marxist/Communism argument is as lame as the talk of "death Panels" to scare people into believing the government is out to kill Grandma. We have public schools, we have a federal Post Office, and Public Libraries. Does that mean the Government is out to brainwash our children intercept our private mail or feed us propaganda when we want to check out a book? the answer is no, and having Public health care does not mean an ushering in of communism.

[Phil Gray]

Is mr Green jeans ever going to get it that noone on this thread will buy his green party bs

[Christian POV]

We are one of the biggest most powerful nations in the world. But Americans could careless about a small child that cant afford kimo treatments because their Daddy got laid off from work and doesnt have Health insurance anymore. So the small child and their family have to resort to putting up little plastic buckets at convinience stores with her picture on it to collect money. But its not enough and the child dies of cancer. But hey thats not my problem right? I have health insurance so should everyone else. And no way should I have to pay an extra 10 dollars out of my paycheck to perhaps save a childs life. Thats not my problem... Wake up America. every other country gives free health care... What is wrong with you people??

[Christian POV]

Aquarius-WY wrote:

<quoted text>
Because the US has the finest health care system in the world even with it's problems.
Because the US is the ONLY country that still stands in defiance of ALL the socialist countries in the world.
Because the US is the last defender of personal freedoms and human rights.
Because the US stands alone in her founding principles and leadership out of bondage and tyranny all those citizens in all those other "single payer" countries are mired down in ... again.

Because the US DOES NOT have the best Health Care program or you wouldnt see little buckets at convinience store with small kids with kimo trying to get donations so they can have at least a chance to fight their cancer.
And you act like we are standing tall with our chest out beating our chest with our fist saying "No Socialism." But yet we have Medicade for the poorest kids and it works great. Medicare for the poorest elderly, works well. Post office works great, Fire Stations and police stations work great. Schools work great. All are public gov. services. But yet when it comes to the healthcare program. All of a sudden your all about the no socialism hysteria. WE are the only non socialism country that doesnt have free healthcare...

[hans]

Alex wrote:

<quoted text>
Because nobody wants 50% of their income to go the government. Thats why.

explain the 50% where did you get that number?

[hans]

Christian POV wrote:

<quoted text>
Because the US DOES NOT have the best Health Care program or you wouldnt see little buckets at convinience store with small kids with kimo trying to get donations so they can have at least a chance to fight their cancer.
And you act like we are standing tall with our chest out beating our chest with our fist saying "No Socialism." But yet we have Medicade for the poorest kids and it works great. Medicare for the poorest elderly, works well. Post office works great, Fire Stations and police stations work great. Schools work great. All are public gov. services. But yet when it comes to the healthcare program. All of a sudden your all about the no socialism hysteria. WE are the only non socialism country that doesnt have free healthcare...

How many foreign country's have you visited? How many different country's have you received medical care in?

Since you are certain the USA has the best medical care on the planet ... you must have received medical services in many different country's to be able to determine the USA has the best in the world.

Where outside the USA have you received medical care... please list the country's so I can research them.

[Christian POV]

hans wrote:

<quoted text>
explain the 50% where did you get that number?

This is what I dislike about debating with most people. Because they throw out extremely exaggerated numbers and absurd thoughts. And I cant help but wonder if they were to look past their dislike for the person bringing forth this reform and look past their own pride and what their tv show tells them to think. If they would believe the words that are coming from their own mouths. And they must feel deep down that they are wrong or they wouldnt need to exaggerate and falsify the facts..

[sweetromance2]

Observer- wrote:

<quoted text>..........
Thank you for this post. I rest my case. I have been saying for over 2 years to anyone on this thread who says that Medicare is great. They deny the most. They delay the most. The pay the least. They have the most paperwork and red tape for our physicians. And they are the most confused, uncaring, disorganized, poor attitude employees and operational system we deal with at this time.

My mother fell on our driveway and broke her leg. She was a diabetic heart patient, she had fallen trying to get into our van. Not a small woman, and trying not to hurt her, it took me and two ambulance attendants to get her off of the driveway. Medicare disallowed the expense saying it was not an emergency.

So, what did they want us to do, pitch a tent over the woman and wait for the department of elderly abuse to show up. They would have called an ambulance just like I did, medicare would have probably covered it then.

[sweetromance2]

Vote Green Party wrote:

<quoted text>Again who is dumb enough to listen to the guys that gave us bush twice? You guys really think you still have credibility?
By your same definition with bush his "nomination speaks volumes about the direction and credibility of the" Republican Party.
You guys are down to what 20%? Still lead by quitters racists tea baggers and pedophiles.
Again its pretty hilarious to hear you try and criticize another political party after what you guys voted in.
Again I am not concerned about criticism from conservatives that seem to think its ok to vote in pedophiles and adulterers.
UHC is dead folks. The dems are useless. Look to a 3rd party.
Vote Green Party wrote:
<quoted text>This from the super-smart voters that gave us bush.......twice.
Please you dont really have the right to ask after telling us bush was the guy we needed.
What a joke. Thanks again for sinking our country!
Vote Green Party wrote:
Again once you two-party people figure out that UHC aint coming - think Green Party.
The sad facts of the status quo that the bush types here want us to keep in power.
45k deaths annually because of no insurance.
life expectancy #31
maternal mortality #34
infant mortality #37
We should all be ashamed that we allow this to continue.

I wouldn't say too much about who voted in who if I were you. The guy you got seems to think it's ok to label a bunch of teabaggers as domestic terrorist, but a guy screaming Allie Akbar and killing 13 people is not? With govt. run healthcare the mortality rates would seem destined to go up.

[METALMAN9]

Yeah Medicare is 44 years old. during the 60s, At the time of its creation, conservatives strongly opposed Medicare, warning that a government-run program would lead to socialism in America: Ronald Reagan:“If you don’t stop Medicare and I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free.”[1961]

George H.W. Bush: Described Medicare in 1964 as “socialized medicine.”[1964]

Barry Goldwater:“Having given our pensioners their medical care in kind, why not food baskets, why not public housing accommodations, why not vacation resorts, why not a ration of cigarettes for those who smoke and of beer for those who drink.”[1964]

Bob Dole: In 1996, while running for the Presidency, Dole openly bragged that he was one of 12 House members who voted against creating Medicare in 1965.“I was there, fighting the fight, voting against Medicare ... because we knew it wouldn’t work in 1965.”[1965]

And now, Republicans are of course recycling the same fear-mongering rhetoric today in an effort to defeat the public option

Its as if America has this incredable short attention span and are in a trace when they watch FOX news.

[METALMAN9]

Christian POV wrote:

<quoted text>
Because the US DOES NOT have the best Health Care program or you wouldnt see little buckets at convinience store with small kids with kimo trying to get donations so they can have at least a chance to fight their cancer.
And you act like we are standing tall with our chest out beating our chest with our fist saying "No Socialism." But yet we have Medicade for the poorest kids and it works great. Medicare for the poorest elderly, works well. Post office works great, Fire Stations and police stations work great. Schools work great. All are public gov. services. But yet when it comes to the healthcare program. All of a sudden your all about the no socialism hysteria. WE are the only non socialism country that doesnt have free healthcare...

I agree, For that matter If our Government is so bad at running healthcare why is it our troops get such good healthcare?

[METALMAN9]

Christian POV wrote:

<quoted text>
This is what I dislike about debating with most people. Because they throw out extremely exaggerated numbers and absurd thoughts. And I cant help but wonder if they were to look past their dislike for the person bringing forth this reform and look past their own pride and what their tv show tells them to think. If they would believe the words that are coming from their own mouths. And they must feel deep down that they are wrong or they wouldnt need to exaggerate and falsify the facts..

Its all about political agenda and the republicans are like a broken record (see my rant on what they thought medicare would do to our country in the 60s its the same old same old)

[METALMAN9]

Peter wrote:

METALMAN9,
So its only Fox News that decieves people? So does all the corporate media.
As for the Republicans, they are the same as the Democrats, at least to me. They both want bigger government, whether it be in social areas, or economic areas.
The Democrats mislead us just as much as the Republicans do. Look at the desperate scare tactics or personal attacks they use?
As for me, I don't really give a damn about what Clinton did in his personal life or whatever.
I'm upset with Obama because his policies are continuing the MASSIVE government, war, spending, debt, inflation etc.
So yes, I am upset with him.

I am a tradesman and belong to a Union. Now I don't necessarily see eye to eye on issues with our union, and if we lived in a perfect world we would not need unions. However we don't live in a perfect world and if it weren't for unions skilled and unskilled labor would be working for far less than a living wage(and that applies to Non unions as well.) I am attempting to draw a parallel to the insurance/healthcare issue. In a perfect world where Capitalism worked perfectly everyone would be able to afford insurance. Nobody would be declined due to pre-existing conditions in health and even if you had to pay outright for the care or prescriptions, needed to live, you could probably afford it out of pocket. That though is not the case. Reality is that the system as it is has run out of control. I believe that it has further implications than just health. I think that it has had a negative affect on our economy as it is. Forgive me for sounding Marxist, But I don't trust those that are only in it for the profit.( I don't mean just politicians, I mean business men as well). this issue would be different if we were talking about something recreational, something that could thought of as optional or luxurious. However healthcare is essential and it blows my mind that people think otherwise.

Anyway I appreciate your post and I do agree with some points you make. PS I don't think that all Politicians or Business men are greed driven, its the rotten few that have me on guard. As far as the Obama bashing It strikes me as ironic when compared to the last President that took our country from prosperity to such lows, so at the moment I defend (and even trust) Obama, and actually sympathize with the mess he has to fix.

[Ed Teach]

Observer- wrote:

<quoted text>......
I still disagree. The coverage and quality of medical care under government control will be worse. First, the current government programs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Tricare do not allow their members (recipients) to have whatever they want, whenever they want it. Medicare denies more healthcare claims for treatment, testing, surgery, etc than any commercial insurance carrier right now. And these programs consistently challenge our physicians for treatment options now.
Second, I do agree that the physicians and healthcare professionals we have today will still work under a government system for the time being. But what about down the road? What brilliant, highly motivated, intellectually standout student today will want to enter medicine tomorrow to be a "de facto" government employee? Who wants to have their salary pre-determined and their workplace run by government "office" workers somewhere in an office building? The quality of medicine is bound to decline year by year, decade by decade.
So, you think it can't be worse. I, working in healthcare for 20+ years, respectfully disagree.

My wife also works in healthcare, and for 20+ yrs. too. what we've seen is the trend of doctors to specialize and the decline of nurses. The days of the G.P. are disappearing quickly. so too is the care one would recieve.
The specialists are the one who have a difficult time with medicare as they will under any new plan.
Under most HMO plans, care is minimal at best. Take dental as an example ... the HMO would rather have you get dentures than cap two teeth and save the rest. Happened to a close friend.
Bottom line as always is greed.

[Observer-]

Christian POV wrote:

We are one of the biggest most powerful nations in the world. But Americans could careless about a small child that cant afford kimo treatments because their Daddy got laid off from work and doesnt have Health insurance anymore. So the small child and their family have to resort to putting up little plastic buckets at convinience stores with her picture on it to collect money. But its not enough and the child dies of cancer. But hey thats not my problem right? I have health insurance so should everyone else. And no way should I have to pay an extra 10 dollars out of my paycheck to perhaps save a childs life. Thats not my problem... Wake up America. every other country gives free health care... What is wrong with you people??

..........

" Wake up America. every other country gives free health care... What is wrong with you people??"

CORRECTION. No country on earth has "FREE" healthcare. Healthcare has a cost no matter who is paying the bill.

[Observer-]

Ed Teach wrote:

<quoted text>My wife also works in healthcare, and for 20+ yrs. too. what we've seen is the trend of doctors to specialize and the decline of nurses. The days of the G.P. are disappearing quickly. so too is the care one would recieve.
The specialists are the one who have a difficult time with medicare as they will under any new plan.
Under most HMO plans, care is minimal at best. Take dental as an example ... the HMO would rather have you get dentures than cap two teeth and save the rest. Happened to a close friend.
Bottom line as always is greed.

..........

The question is: Why is Primary Care (General Practice) becoming a dinosaur?

The answer is: Google "capitation"

Who in their right mind wants to work for a pre-determined amount of money to see a patient for the entire year?

[Observer-]

METALMAN9 wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree, For that matter If our Government is so bad at running healthcare why is it our troops get such good healthcare?

........

Did I read this correctly? Troops! Healthcare! Tricare!!

Evidently you have no experience with Tricare.