Local Clinic Affected By Abortion Debate

Jun 26, 2013 Full story: KBTX-TV Bryan 333

"I have my umbrella because it is really hot. Rain or shine. I am out here," said Susan Lovelette, a Bryan resident.

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“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#126 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Their organ systems work on their own before they're born. They typically aren't born without functioning organ systems.
They are, still, fully dependent upon another as infants.
No, actually, many of their systems DON'T work on their own before birth, even if parts of them do. You are incorrect.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#127 Jul 5, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
No, actually, many of their systems DON'T work on their own before birth, even if parts of them do. You are incorrect.
Which ones aren't functional 5 minutes before birth that are 5 minutes after?
Dan

Omaha, NE

#128 Jul 5, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
No, actually, many of their systems DON'T work on their own before birth, even if parts of them do. You are incorrect.
Here are the ten major organ systems.

These are functional before birth.

Circulatory system: pumping and channeling blood to and from the body and lungs with heart, blood, and blood vessels.
Digestive System: digestion and processing food with salivary glands, esophagus, stomach, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, intestines, rectum, and anus.
Endocannabinoid system: neuromodulatory lipids and receptors involved in a variety of physiological processes including appetite, pain-sensation, mood, motor learning, synaptic plasticity, and memory.
Endocrine system: communication within the body using hormones made by endocrine glands such as the hypothalamus, pituitary or pituitary gland, pineal body or pineal gland, thyroid, parathyroids, and adrenals or adrenal glands
Immune system: the system that fights off disease; composed of leukocytes, tonsils, adenoids, thymus, and spleen.
Integumentary system: skin, hair and nails
Lymphatic system: structures involved in the transfer of lymph between tissues and the blood stream, the lymph and the nodes and vessels that transport it.
Musculoskeletal system: muscles provide movement and a skeleton provides structural support and protection with bones, cartilage, ligaments, and tendons.
Nervous system: collecting, transferring and processing information with brain, spinal cord and nerves
Reproductive system: the sex organs; in the female; ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, vagina, mammary glands, and in the male; testicles, vas deferens, seminal vesicles, prostate, and penis.
Respiratory system: the organs used for breathing, the pharynx, larynx, trachea, bronchi, lungs, and diaphragm.
Urinary system: kidneys, ureters, bladder and urethra involved in fluid balance, electrolyte balance and excretion of urine.
Vestibular system: contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#130 Jul 5, 2013
persnickety wrote:
<quoted text>Watch out for bitler, she never can say she is wrong. She is a rabid wiccan.
I'm not sure inerrancy is a stipulation of Wicca, even if Bit IS Wiccan.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#131 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Here are the ten major organ systems.
These are functional before birth.
Circulatory system: pumping and channeling blood to and from the body and lungs with heart, blood, and blood vessels.
Digestive System: digestion and processing food with salivary glands, esophagus, stomach, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, intestines, rectum, and anus.
Endocannabinoid system: neuromodulatory lipids and receptors involved in a variety of physiological processes including appetite, pain-sensation, mood, motor learning, synaptic plasticity, and memory.
Endocrine system: communication within the body using hormones made by endocrine glands such as the hypothalamus, pituitary or pituitary gland, pineal body or pineal gland, thyroid, parathyroids, and adrenals or adrenal glands
Immune system: the system that fights off disease; composed of leukocytes, tonsils, adenoids, thymus, and spleen.
Integumentary system: skin, hair and nails
Lymphatic system: structures involved in the transfer of lymph between tissues and the blood stream, the lymph and the nodes and vessels that transport it.
Musculoskeletal system: muscles provide movement and a skeleton provides structural support and protection with bones, cartilage, ligaments, and tendons.
Nervous system: collecting, transferring and processing information with brain, spinal cord and nerves
Reproductive system: the sex organs; in the female; ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, vagina, mammary glands, and in the male; testicles, vas deferens, seminal vesicles, prostate, and penis.
Respiratory system: the organs used for breathing, the pharynx, larynx, trachea, bronchi, lungs, and diaphragm.
Urinary system: kidneys, ureters, bladder and urethra involved in fluid balance, electrolyte balance and excretion of urine.
Vestibular system: contributes to our balance and our sense of spatial orientation.
They are not all full functional before birth. I already acknowledged, did I not, that parts of them may be? That's because I'm honest.

The circulatory system, digestive system, and endocrine systems are all dependent for parts of their function on the woman's body, and are not fully functional until after birth.

I know you want to pretend that a fetus is exactly the same as a neonate, but that is just not true. It is different physically, mentally, legally, and for many people, spiritually.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#132 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure inerrancy is a stipulation of Wicca, even if Bit IS Wiccan.
I am Wiccan, not that it's relevant :) That poster is just obsessed.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#133 Jul 5, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not all full functional before birth. I already acknowledged, did I not, that parts of them may be? That's because I'm honest.
The circulatory system, digestive system, and endocrine systems are all dependent for parts of their function on the woman's body, and are not fully functional until after birth.
I know you want to pretend that a fetus is exactly the same as a neonate, but that is just not true. It is different physically, mentally, legally, and for many people, spiritually.
They are functional. As in, they CAN work. My car's battery is "functional". It is able to start my car, even though it's sitting in the driveway right now.

A fetus 5 minutes before birth and an infant 5 minutes after birth are physically and mentally the same-only their location has changed.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#134 Jul 5, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
I am Wiccan, not that it's relevant :) That poster is just obsessed.
OK. I'm not concerned about that. I'm not sure what possible difference that makes.

It seems to to some people.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#135 Jul 5, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
I am Wiccan, not that it's relevant :) That poster is just obsessed.
Gotta bail out for the day.

TTYL.

Have a good day. You'll do better than I, as Friday is regarded as the day of art and pleasure, yes?

:)

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#136 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
They are functional. As in, they CAN work. My car's battery is "functional". It is able to start my car, even though it's sitting in the driveway right now.
A fetus 5 minutes before birth and an infant 5 minutes after birth are physically and mentally the same-only their location has changed.
They CAN work, IF developed enough, AFTER birth. The fact is that BEFORE birth, they are dependent in some way on the woman's organ systems making them function.

Mentally? No there, too. The third trimester fetus is not conscious, it spends it's time in one or the other of two states of "sleep", anesthetized by the low-oxygen environment, and two substances pumped in by the placenta.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...

No, they are not the same. The former's organ systems are not functioning on their on, the latter's are. The former is anesthetized, the latter conscious. It is not just a question of location. I know you're invested in asserting this, because of your anti-choice agenda, but it's not true. I note you ignored the others, legal and spiritual, too. Typical.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#137 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Gotta bail out for the day.
TTYL.
Have a good day. You'll do better than I, as Friday is regarded as the day of art and pleasure, yes?
:)
In THIS humidity? I don't know about that, lol.

Thank you, and you have a good day, too.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#138 Jul 5, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
OK. I'm not concerned about that. I'm not sure what possible difference that makes.
It seems to to some people.
Yeah it does. I'm not sure why, either.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#139 Jul 8, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
They CAN work, IF developed enough, AFTER birth. The fact is that BEFORE birth, they are dependent in some way on the woman's organ systems making them function.
Mentally? No there, too. The third trimester fetus is not conscious, it spends it's time in one or the other of two states of "sleep", anesthetized by the low-oxygen environment, and two substances pumped in by the placenta.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...
No, they are not the same. The former's organ systems are not functioning on their on, the latter's are. The former is anesthetized, the latter conscious. It is not just a question of location. I know you're invested in asserting this, because of your anti-choice agenda, but it's not true. I note you ignored the others, legal and spiritual, too. Typical.
The former is still in utero, so some organ systems aren't REQUIRED to function as they would out of the womb. I understand that. They are still formed and functional. Once they have to work outside the womb, they work.

A state of anesthesia doesn't render my organ systems non-functional. It may render them non-functioning to varying degrees during the anesthesia.

I "ignored" legal and spiritual as they aren't what we're speaking of (I thought).

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#140 Jul 8, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
"The former is still in utero, so some organ systems aren't REQUIRED to function as they would out of the womb. I understand that."

And some are incapable of functioning on their own, hence dependent on the woman's organ systems to function.

"They are still formed and functional."

Not all, as I pointed out.

"Once they have to work outside the womb, they work."

And the physical changes that don't occur UNTIL BIRTH are the difference that I spoke of.

"A state of anesthesia doesn't render my organ systems non-functional. It may render them non-functioning to varying degrees during the anesthesia."

I never said it rendered systems non-functional, as you should have know if you'd read what I actually said. It renders the fetus unconscious, as it does for the born surgical patient. Difference is that the fetus spends all it's time unconscious.

That is another difference.

"I "ignored" legal and spiritual as they aren't what we're speaking of (I thought)."

We were speaking of differences. When you say there is no difference, then it behooves me to list the all.

I do understand, really I do, that your side is invested in pretending that a fetus is exactly like an infant, but that's quite simply not true, as I proved with all the differences listed.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#141 Jul 8, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
"The former is still in utero, so some organ systems aren't REQUIRED to function as they would out of the womb. I understand that."
And some are incapable of functioning on their own, hence dependent on the woman's organ systems to function.
"They are still formed and functional."
Not all, as I pointed out.
"Once they have to work outside the womb, they work."
And the physical changes that don't occur UNTIL BIRTH are the difference that I spoke of.
"A state of anesthesia doesn't render my organ systems non-functional. It may render them non-functioning to varying degrees during the anesthesia."
I never said it rendered systems non-functional, as you should have know if you'd read what I actually said. It renders the fetus unconscious, as it does for the born surgical patient. Difference is that the fetus spends all it's time unconscious.
That is another difference.
"I "ignored" legal and spiritual as they aren't what we're speaking of (I thought)."
We were speaking of differences. When you say there is no difference, then it behooves me to list the all.
I do understand, really I do, that your side is invested in pretending that a fetus is exactly like an infant, but that's quite simply not true, as I proved with all the differences listed.
What "physical change that doesn't occur until birth"?

The only change is where it is, right?

One minute, it's in, the next it's out.

That's the only "difference" you've pointed out that I can tell.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#142 Jul 8, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
What "physical change that doesn't occur until birth"?
The only change is where it is, right?
One minute, it's in, the next it's out.
That's the only "difference" you've pointed out that I can tell.
Now you're just being dishonest.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#143 Jul 8, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're just being dishonest.
How?

By asking you to explain what "physical changes that don't occur UNTIL BIRTH" are?

Seems like an 'honest' question to me.

What physical change occurs to the fetus/infant after birth? I'm only aware that it's environment changes.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#144 Jul 8, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
How?
By asking you to explain what "physical changes that don't occur UNTIL BIRTH" are?
Seems like an 'honest' question to me.
What physical change occurs to the fetus/infant after birth? I'm only aware that it's environment changes.
Then you've never done any research on the subject. And I'm guessing it's because you really don't WANT to know.

With the first breath, there is sufficient pressure to close the Foramen Ovale, which completes the circulatory system, and starts the process of gas exchange being accomplished by the neonate in the lungs, rather than by the woman's body through the umbilical cord.

That's one. Try doing some real research on your own, instead of just listening to propaganda sound bytes.

I ALSO had already mentioned consciousness, but don't let facts deter your deflections, certainly.

Again, you ignore the legal and spiritual changes. Why is that?

Why, when you claim the only difference is location, would they NOT be important enough to discuss?
Dan

Omaha, NE

#145 Jul 8, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're just being dishonest.
To wit-all "changes" accompany the change in environment.

Note that all these "changes" occur with functional organ systems already in place. They don't "sprout" lungs, liver, GI tract, skin, et. al. on their way out of the canal.

The source seems not to place "consciousness" as noteworthy to any degree. It fails to mention it, in any event.(NB: I had to snip a bit for space, but the link works en toto

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/artic...

LUNGS AND CIRCULATORY SYSTEM

While the fetus is in the womb, it "breathes" by exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide through the mother's circulation via the placenta. Most of the blood does not go through the developing baby's lungs. Instead, it travels through the heart and flows throughout the baby's body.

At birth, the baby's lungs are filled with amniotic fluid and are not inflated. The baby takes the first breath within about 10 seconds after delivery. It sounds like a gasp, as the newborn's central nervous system reacts to the sudden change in temperature and environment.

Once the umbilical cord is cut and the baby takes the first breath, a number of changes occur in the infant's lungs and circulatory system:
•Increased oxygen in the lungs causes a decrease in blood flow resistance to the lungs.
•Blood flow resistance of the baby's blood vessels also increases.
•Amniotic fluid drains or is absorbed from the respiratory system.
•The lungs inflate and begin working on their own, moving oxygen into the bloodstream and removing carbon dioxide by breathing out (exhalation).

TEMPERATURE REGULATION

A developing baby produces about twice as much heat as an adult. That heat dissipates as blood flows into the mother's circulation via the placenta and is cooled. A small amount of heat is removed through the developing baby's skin, the amniotic fluid, and the uterine wall.

After delivery, the newborn begins to lose heat. Receptors on the baby's skin send messages to the brain that the baby's body is cold. The baby's body then creates heat by shivering and by burning stores of brown fat, a type of fat found only in fetuses and newborns.

LIVER

In the fetus, the liver acts as a storage site for sugar (glycogen) and iron. When the baby is born, the liver has various functions:
•It produces substances that help the blood to clot.
•It begins breaking down waste products such as excess red blood cells.
•It produces a protein that helps break down bilirubin. If the baby's body does not properly break down bilirubin, it can lead to newborn jaundice.

GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT

A baby's gastrointestinal system doesn't fully function until after birth.

In late pregnancy, the fetus produces a tarry green or black waste substance called meconium. Meconium is the medical term for the newborn infant's first stools. Meconium is composed of amniotic fluid, mucus, lanugo (the fine hair that covers the baby's body), bile, and cells that have been shed from the skin and intestinal tract. In some cases, the baby passes stools (meconium) while still inside the uterus.

URINARY SYSTEM

The developing baby's kidneys begin producing urine by 9 - 12 weeks into the pregnancy. After birth, the newborn will usually urinate within the first 24 hours of life. The kidneys become able to maintain the body's fluid and electrolyte balance.

IMMUNE SYSTEM

The immune system begins to develop in the fetus, and continues to mature through the child's first few years of life. The womb is a relatively sterile environment. But as soon as the baby is born, he or she is exposed to a variety of bacteria and other potential disease-causing substances. Although newborn infants are more vulnerable to infection, their immune system can respond to infectious organisms.

SKIN

Newborn skin will vary depending on the length of the pregnancy. Premature infants have thin, transparent skin. The skin of a full-term infant is thicker.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#146 Jul 8, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you've never done any research on the subject. And I'm guessing it's because you really don't WANT to know.
With the first breath, there is sufficient pressure to close the Foramen Ovale, which completes the circulatory system, and starts the process of gas exchange being accomplished by the neonate in the lungs, rather than by the woman's body through the umbilical cord.
That's one. Try doing some real research on your own, instead of just listening to propaganda sound bytes.
I ALSO had already mentioned consciousness, but don't let facts deter your deflections, certainly.
Again, you ignore the legal and spiritual changes. Why is that?
Why, when you claim the only difference is location, would they NOT be important enough to discuss?
I looked it up.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/artic...

All the changes noted occur with the supporting functional organ systems already in place. They don't "sprout" skin, lungs, GI Tract, liver, et. al. when passing through the birth canal.

The source doesn't mention "consciousness" as any major deal. You keep mentioning it, but I'm not sure to what purpose.

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