It's the Guns, Stupid

It's the Guns, Stupid

There are 103296 comments on the Truthdig story from Apr 20, 2007, titled It's the Guns, Stupid. In it, Truthdig reports that:

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Truthdig.

Electric cars are gay

France

#110742 Dec 2, 2013
This thread is so fcuking stupid you cant even tell whether the posts are pro or ant-gun anymore.

All the intelligent people left and now its a handful or wakos that don't make any sense that post.
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110743 Dec 2, 2013
USmotto wrote:
<quoted text>
According to Interpol, Australia is the leading nation in crime of Western, industialized nations. The UK is second
Based upon what?

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110744 Dec 2, 2013
ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Based upon what?
Six weeks after the Dunblane massacre in 1996, Martin Bryant, an Australian with a lifelong history of violence, attacked tourists at a Port Arthur prison site in Tasmania with two semiautomatic rifles. He killed 35 people and wounded 21 others.

At the time, Australia's guns laws were stricter than the United Kingdom's. In lieu of the requirement in Britain that an applicant for permission to purchase a gun have a "good reason," Australia required a "genuine reason." Hunting and protecting crops from feral animals were genuine reasons—personal protection wasn't.

With new Prime Minister John Howard in the lead, Australia passed the National Firearms Agreement, banning all semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic and pump-action shotguns and imposing a more restrictive licensing system on other firearms. The government also launched a forced buyback scheme to remove thousands of firearms from private hands. Between Oct. 1, 1996, and Sept. 30, 1997, the government purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 of the banned guns at a cost of $500 million.

To what end? While there has been much controversy over the result of the law and buyback, Peter Reuter and Jenny Mouzos, in a 2003 study published by the Brookings Institution, found homicides "continued a modest decline" since 1997. They concluded that the impact of the National Firearms Agreement was "relatively small," with the daily rate of firearms homicides declining 3.2%.

According to their study, the use of handguns rather than long guns (rifles and shotguns) went up sharply, but only one out of 117 gun homicides in the two years following the 1996 National Firearms Agreement used a registered gun. Suicides with firearms went down but suicides by other means went up. They reported "a modest reduction in the severity" of massacres (four or more indiscriminate homicides) in the five years since the government weapons buyback. These involved knives, gas and arson rather than firearms.

In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.

What to conclude? Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven't made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres. The two major countries held up as models for the U.S. don't provide much evidence that strict gun laws will solve our problems.

Ms. Malcolm, a professor of law at George Mason University Law School, is the author of several books including "Guns and Violence: The English Experience," (Harvard, 2002).
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142...
Laffing at Morons

Cambridge, Canada

#110745 Dec 2, 2013
ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Based upon what?
The NRA weekly diarrhea dump

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110746 Dec 2, 2013
Laffing at Morons wrote:
<quoted text>
The NRA weekly diarrhea dump
The Failure of Canadian Gun Control
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/Mags/The-Failure-...
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110747 Dec 2, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
Six weeks after the Dunblane massacre in 1996, Martin Bryant, an Australian with a lifelong history of violence, attacked tourists at a Port Arthur prison site in Tasmania with two semiautomatic rifles. He killed 35 people and wounded 21 others.
At the time, Australia's guns laws were stricter than the United Kingdom's. In lieu of the requirement in Britain that an applicant for permission to purchase a gun have a "good reason," Australia required a "genuine reason." Hunting and protecting crops from feral animals were genuine reasons—personal protection wasn't.
With new Prime Minister John Howard in the lead, Australia passed the National Firearms Agreement, banning all semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic and pump-action shotguns and imposing a more restrictive licensing system on other firearms. The government also launched a forced buyback scheme to remove thousands of firearms from private hands. Between Oct. 1, 1996, and Sept. 30, 1997, the government purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 of the banned guns at a cost of $500 million.
To what end? While there has been much controversy over the result of the law and buyback, Peter Reuter and Jenny Mouzos, in a 2003 study published by the Brookings Institution, found homicides "continued a modest decline" since 1997. They concluded that the impact of the National Firearms Agreement was "relatively small," with the daily rate of firearms homicides declining 3.2%.
According to their study, the use of handguns rather than long guns (rifles and shotguns) went up sharply, but only one out of 117 gun homicides in the two years following the 1996 National Firearms Agreement used a registered gun. Suicides with firearms went down but suicides by other means went up. They reported "a modest reduction in the severity" of massacres (four or more indiscriminate homicides) in the five years since the government weapons buyback. These involved knives, gas and arson rather than firearms.
In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.
What to conclude? Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven't made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres. The two major countries held up as models for the U.S. don't provide much evidence that strict gun laws will solve our problems.
Ms. Malcolm, a professor of law at George Mason University Law School, is the author of several books including "Guns and Violence: The English Experience," (Harvard, 2002).
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142...
So you say Australia's crimes has only modestly reduced since we introduced gun control; how does that compare with the US since it was stated that Australia is the number one crime capital?

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110748 Dec 2, 2013
ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
So you say Australia's crimes has only modestly reduced since we introduced gun control; how does that compare with the US since it was stated that Australia is the number one crime capital?
More Guns = Less Crime.

'Gun Control' CAUSES CRIME. For it makes it easier for the criminals.(Including the biggest criminals of all - GOVERNMENT).
Ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110749 Dec 2, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
More Guns = Less Crime.
'Gun Control' CAUSES CRIME. For it makes it easier for the criminals.(Including the biggest criminals of all - GOVERNMENT).
Yet you like the NRA aren't able to supply statistics to support this can you?

Whats the murder and various crime rates in Australia versus the US?

Here is a hint, Australia's are significantly lower than the US.

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110750 Dec 2, 2013
Ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet you like the NRA aren't able to supply statistics to support this can you?
Whats the murder and various crime rates in Australia versus the US?
Here is a hint, Australia's are significantly lower than the US.
Population of Australia: 22.68 million (2012)
Population of United States of America: 313.9 million (2012)

By The Numbers:

Some notes on claims about Australia's crime rates

...After the gun ban, gun homicides in Australia did not decline any more than they were expected to without a gun ban. Thus, for example, according to the Australian Institute of Criminology, the homicide rate has been in steady decline from 1969 to the present, with only one marked uptick in 1998-99 -- right after the gun ban was enacted....
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-no...

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110751 Dec 2, 2013
Ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet you like the NRA aren't able to supply statistics to support this can you?
Whats the murder and various crime rates in Australia versus the US?
Here is a hint, Australia's are significantly lower than the US.
Not quite. For the United States I sure can:

The statistics from the chart were gathered from the Disaster Center referenced above. To which were added the last two columns on the right. Which contain information concerning U.S. gun law enactment periods. As well as crime rate variances, and finally; N.I.C.S.,(National Instant Criminal Background Check), numbers,

As it is plain to see, crime rates started a dramatic rise after the 1968 Gun Control Act. During the years 1981-84 crime rates either leveled out or dropped. From 1985-91 the overall crime rate again rose sharply. During the year 1992 the crime rates again leveled. While in 1993 most crime rates had fallen. Which fails to explain the justification for the Unconstitutional “Brady Bill”.

The 'Gun Control' laws that have been unconstitutionally passed have also had an effect on Firearm sales in the United States. According to National Shooting Sports Foundation,(NSSF), and FBI NICS records. Firearms sales have increased by 54.1% between 2002-2011*. Thus making the claim by John Lott in his book; “More Guns, Less Crime”, a statistical FACT.

'Gun Control laws' also seem to be providing an impetus for increased firearms sales. Which is hardly what the 'gun control' crowd desired, I'm sure. That is of course, unless they are stock holders in firearms related businesses....
http://gunshowonthenet.blogspot.com/2013/04/u...
Ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110752 Dec 2, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
Population of Australia: 22.68 million (2012)
Population of United States of America: 313.9 million (2012)
By The Numbers:
Some notes on claims about Australia's crime rates
...After the gun ban, gun homicides in Australia did not decline any more than they were expected to without a gun ban. Thus, for example, according to the Australian Institute of Criminology, the homicide rate has been in steady decline from 1969 to the present, with only one marked uptick in 1998-99 -- right after the gun ban was enacted....
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-no...
Thats a blog from someone trying to sell a book.

How about providing data from a more reliable source?

Also how does the homicides from gun related deaths compare between our countries if Guns reduce crime; according to you the US should be significantly lower due to the prevalence of guns in the US!

Also how have the various rates of crime compared between Australia and the US since we undertook our gun buyback in 1996?
Ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110753 Dec 2, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
Not quite. For the United States I sure can:
The statistics from the chart were gathered from the Disaster Center referenced above. To which were added the last two columns on the right. Which contain information concerning U.S. gun law enactment periods. As well as crime rate variances, and finally; N.I.C.S.,(National Instant Criminal Background Check), numbers,
As it is plain to see, crime rates started a dramatic rise after the 1968 Gun Control Act. During the years 1981-84 crime rates either leveled out or dropped. From 1985-91 the overall crime rate again rose sharply. During the year 1992 the crime rates again leveled. While in 1993 most crime rates had fallen. Which fails to explain the justification for the Unconstitutional “Brady Bill”.
The 'Gun Control' laws that have been unconstitutionally passed have also had an effect on Firearm sales in the United States. According to National Shooting Sports Foundation,(NSSF), and FBI NICS records. Firearms sales have increased by 54.1% between 2002-2011*. Thus making the claim by John Lott in his book; “More Guns, Less Crime”, a statistical FACT.
'Gun Control laws' also seem to be providing an impetus for increased firearms sales. Which is hardly what the 'gun control' crowd desired, I'm sure. That is of course, unless they are stock holders in firearms related businesses....
http://gunshowonthenet.blogspot.com/2013/04/u...
Another blog from another NRA supporting supporting data.

Here is a hint, the US gun related deaths are significantly higher in the gun mad US than in Australia with our gun control; the NRA won't admit this or will try and cherry pick data they can try and somehow justify their beliefs.

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110755 Dec 3, 2013
Ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats a blog from someone trying to sell a book.
How about providing data from a more reliable source?
Also how does the homicides from gun related deaths compare between our countries if Guns reduce crime; according to you the US should be significantly lower due to the prevalence of guns in the US!
Also how have the various rates of crime compared between Australia and the US since we undertook our gun buyback in 1996?
Go back a few pages in this thread. There are stats from your own government that provide ample proof.

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110756 Dec 3, 2013
Ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Another blog from another NRA supporting supporting data.
Here is a hint, the US gun related deaths are significantly higher in the gun mad US than in Australia with our gun control; the NRA won't admit this or will try and cherry pick data they can try and somehow justify their beliefs.
If you want to be disarmed, fine. But it's pretty cowardly to put your fellow citizens that want to defend themselves. Into the same cowardly boat as you. Your type of human being is truly despicable. For out of cowardice, you whine to government to force your will on your fellow citizens. You deserve what's coming. But your fellow citizens do not.
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110757 Dec 3, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
Go back a few pages in this thread. There are stats from your own government that provide ample proof.
The statistics are that since the 1996 gun buy back Australian total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides - all at least doubled their previous rates of decline following the revised firearm legislation."

Also while the rates per 100,000 of total firearm deaths, firearm suicides and firearm homicides were already reducing by an average of 3 per cent each year until 1996, these average rates of decline doubled to 6 per centeach year (total gun death), and more than doubled to 7.4 per cent(gun suicide) and 7.5 per centeach year (gun homicide) following the introduction of new gun laws.

By 2002/03, Australia's rate of 0.27 firearm-related homicides per 100,000 population had dropped to one-fifteenth that of the United States.
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110758 Dec 3, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
If you want to be disarmed, fine. But it's pretty cowardly to put your fellow citizens that want to defend themselves. Into the same cowardly boat as you. Your type of human being is truly despicable. For out of cowardice, you whine to government to force your will on your fellow citizens. You deserve what's coming. But your fellow citizens do not.
We don;t have the right to bear arms in Australia, we also don;t have the braindead NRA inbreds here though we get the nuffies coming to Australia trying to tell us we should be heavily armed like the US!

Your country is killing themselves, we have had no mass shootings since the gun control laws were introduced, the US has had them on an almost monthly basis.

Our deaths from guns is one-fifteenth that of the United States per 100,000 population.

The US in 2010 had 9,960 gun related deaths, Australia had approximately 280.

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110759 Dec 3, 2013
ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
We don;t have the right to bear arms in Australia, we also don;t have the braindead NRA inbreds here though we get the nuffies coming to Australia trying to tell us we should be heavily armed like the US!
Your country is killing themselves, we have had no mass shootings since the gun control laws were introduced, the US has had them on an almost monthly basis.
Our deaths from guns is one-fifteenth that of the United States per 100,000 population.
The US in 2010 had 9,960 gun related deaths, Australia had approximately 280.
The real beauty of all this, is that your opinion means SQUAT. Go for a swim, the great whites are out cruising...
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110760 Dec 3, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
The real beauty of all this, is that your opinion means SQUAT. Go for a swim, the great whites are out cruising...
Neither does your opinion in Australia or on this Australian thread on Topic.

It is good to see you have finally decided not to try and argue comparable gun related death Australia versus the US.

“shall NOT be infringed”

Since: Oct 13

Phoenix

#110761 Dec 3, 2013
ex-ADF wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither does your opinion in Australia or on this Australian thread on Topic.
It is good to see you have finally decided not to try and argue comparable gun related death Australia versus the US.
Don't need to argue something that has already been proven. You cowards have stripped your fellow countrymen and women of an essential right. And one day you shall pay for your treachery, whether it be in this life or the next.
ex-ADF

Labrador, Australia

#110762 Dec 3, 2013
2ndAmRight wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't need to argue something that has already been proven. You cowards have stripped your fellow countrymen and women of an essential right. And one day you shall pay for your treachery, whether it be in this life or the next.
You have proven nothing except shown me your inability to think independently.

The statistics prove that Australia's gun control has significantly reduced gun related deaths to 1/15 of the US, with nil gun massacres in Australia since 1996 unlike the US.

You have also failed to understand that their is no right under Australian law to own a weapon, no constitution nothing!

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