It's the Guns, Stupid

Apr 20, 2007 Full story: Truthdig 103,346

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

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“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110406 Sep 10, 2013
Anonymous of Indy wrote:
<quoted text>go trying buying a gun and you will learn alot of all that is involved just to buy a gun.
I own guns, I am aware what's involved in buying a gun....but thank you!

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110407 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
A loophole is a way to get around an existing law through a legal means.
loophole - a means of escape; especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Since there are NO transactions that take place at a gunshow that can't take place outside of the venue....THERE IS NO GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE
So, it's merely the wording?!
Should I call it the gun show AND private seller loophole?
There is a LOOPHOLE...it is a HOLE that allows people to not show ID or a background check that the law requires. It;s a means of getting around that law.
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a made-up term by anti-gun leftists to make it sound like there is some kind of way for criminals to legally obtain weapons that they don't have access to on the outside.
Then what do you suggest we call it? What do we call the process of skirting around the background check law and system terrorists use to skirt the Brady law? I never said criminals don't have access on the outside...the "loophole" simply makes it easier.
You might not like the term, BUT the premise of my point remains the same.
Call it whatever you like.....
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
And in typical Bunny fashion, you move the goal post when your claim is proven to be FALSE.
What claim was proven false? How did I move the goal post...can you be specific? We are directly talking about the "gun show/private seller loophole"...or whatever you wanna call it, lol.
I have proven it exists. You only dispute the wording of it, but we both know it exists.
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's something else for you to ponder. I have told you this before on more than one occasion, but since your memory seems to be fading, I'll say it again. DOJ statistics a few years ago showed that LESS THAN 2% of all firearms recovered at crime scenes where able to be traced back to a sale at a gunshow. Less than 2%.
proof please? I'll be waiting.....
BUT...did you take private sellers into account too? The loophole is for gun shows AND private sellers as well! I wonder how that figures in to your total percentage?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Now I have zero desire to hash all this out with you again, because you have come back making the same bullshit claims as before, which has already been completely debunked
BullS!t :D
We can all see there is a way for criminals and terrorists to skirt the Brady Law...what do you think we should call it?
Nothing has been debunked...you simply dispute the wording!
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
So unless you can come up with some kind of new argument to back what you claim, I will bid you, adieu.
Dodge!

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110408 Sep 10, 2013
MD Conservative wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are willing to give up MY RIGHTS and those of others that exercise their Second Amendment to keep firearms out of the hands of .00001% got it.
Wow! Can you possibly be more Anti-American, Anti-Constitution?
How does background checks effect your rights, unless you're a criminal?
We have the RIGHT to vote, but we still have to show ID when we register to vote, and AGAIN when we're at the polls.
Does that mean YOU are willing to give up MY right, and the right of others to exercise the right to vote in an attempt to prevent voter fraud that is only 0.00004% got it?
I don't see you fighting for VOTING rights....eh? How can you be FOR the constitution regarding guns, but against the constitutional amendments regarding voting rights?
WOW, can you possibly be more anti American, anti constitutional^?
BUT...I must add.....the founding fathers (the writers of the second amendment) had THEE strictest gun control laws EVER. So it's obvious their intent is FOR some gun control.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110409 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
loophole - a means of escape; especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded
<quoted text>So, it's merely the wording?!
Should I call it the gun show AND private seller loophole?
There is a LOOPHOLE...it is a HOLE that allows people to not show ID or a background check that the law requires. It;s a means of getting around that law.
<quoted text>Then what do you suggest we call it? What do we call the process of skirting around the background check law and system terrorists use to skirt the Brady law? I never said criminals don't have access on the outside...the "loophole" simply makes it easier.
You might not like the term, BUT the premise of my point remains the same.
Call it whatever you like.....
<quoted text>What claim was proven false? How did I move the goal post...can you be specific? We are directly talking about the "gun show/private seller loophole"...or whatever you wanna call it, lol.
I have proven it exists. You only dispute the wording of it, but we both know it exists.
<quoted text>proof please? I'll be waiting.....
BUT...did you take private sellers into account too? The loophole is for gun shows AND private sellers as well! I wonder how that figures in to your total percentage?
<quoted text>BullS!t :D
We can all see there is a way for criminals and terrorists to skirt the Brady Law...what do you think we should call it?
Nothing has been debunked...you simply dispute the wording!
<quoted text>Dodge!
If a sale between two PRIVATE individuals does NOT require a background check to be done or ID to be shown, REGARDLESS OF THE LOCATION, then there is no special "loophole" at a gunshow that allows them to skirt the law. THE LOCATION DOES. NOT. MATTER. Calling it a "gunshow loophole" is incorrect because it DOES. NOT. EXIST. It is a misnomer that liberals use to make it seem as though a law is being skirted when one ISN'T, and your "premise" is still WRONG! There is no ID required, BY LAW, for the saleof a firearm between two private people. And if one of them is not allowed to purchase a firearm because of past criminal history, there are already laws against him/her doing so. Whether that person buys a gun from a private seller at a gunshow OR a private seller outside the gunshow....IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. THE VENUE DOESN'T MATTER!

Is that clear enough for you, blondie?

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110410 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
loophole - a means of escape; especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded
<quoted text>So, it's merely the wording?!
Should I call it the gun show AND private seller loophole?
There is a LOOPHOLE...it is a HOLE that allows people to not show ID or a background check that the law requires. It;s a means of getting around that law.
<quoted text>Then what do you suggest we call it? What do we call the process of skirting around the background check law and system terrorists use to skirt the Brady law? I never said criminals don't have access on the outside...the "loophole" simply makes it easier.
You might not like the term, BUT the premise of my point remains the same.
Call it whatever you like.....
<quoted text>What claim was proven false? How did I move the goal post...can you be specific? We are directly talking about the "gun show/private seller loophole"...or whatever you wanna call it, lol.
I have proven it exists. You only dispute the wording of it, but we both know it exists.
<quoted text>proof please? I'll be waiting.....
BUT...did you take private sellers into account too? The loophole is for gun shows AND private sellers as well! I wonder how that figures in to your total percentage?
<quoted text>BullS!t :D
We can all see there is a way for criminals and terrorists to skirt the Brady Law...what do you think we should call it?
Nothing has been debunked...you simply dispute the wording!
<quoted text>Dodge!
Your claim that was proven false was the where you poasted that full-auto firearms could be bought at a gunshow without ID or background check. Then you said, but you can still buy semi-auto's... blah blah blah.

And no law written will EVER stop a criminal or terrorist from getting what they want. And there are already laws n the books making it illegal fro them to obtain firearms.

And I don't care what you call it as long as it is accurate. Call it "Bunny's Fantasy Loophole". It's a more accurate description because that is all it is.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110411 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
If a sale between two PRIVATE individuals does NOT require a background check to be done or ID to be shown, REGARDLESS OF THE LOCATION, then there is no special "loophole" at a gunshow that allows them to skirt the law. THE LOCATION DOES. NOT. MATTER. Calling it a "gunshow loophole" is incorrect because it DOES. NOT. EXIST. It is a misnomer that liberals use to make it seem as though a law is being skirted when one ISN'T, and your "premise" is still WRONG! There is no ID required, BY LAW, for the saleof a firearm between two private people. And if one of them is not allowed to purchase a firearm because of past criminal history, there are already laws against him/her doing so. Whether that person buys a gun from a private seller at a gunshow OR a private seller outside the gunshow....IT IS STILL ILLEGAL. THE VENUE DOESN'T MATTER!
Is that clear enough for you, blondie?
So it's simply the wording? The fact that terrorists and criminals can easily buy guns from private sellers, and gun shows allows them to evade the Brady law. Call it a loop hole, call it evading the law, call it a terrorists dream, call it santa clause....I don't care, because my point still stands the same. The "thing" that allows terrorists to buy guns from private sellers and gun shows without fear of a background check, or I.D. should be called......what????
Change the wording if you want to, the premise is still the same.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110412 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Your claim that was proven false was the where you poasted that full-auto firearms could be bought at a gunshow without ID or background check.
Ummm, AV....can you read? It wasn't >my< claim...it was a DIRECT QUOTE from the terrorist Adam Gadahn, lol, duh!
So, you have proven NOTHING I said false. Again, it was a direct quote. AND, I agreed with you that they don't sell FULL auto weapons...but they do sell SEMI auto weapons (and many other weapons) so it doesn't change the FACT that terrorist Gadahn made a VIDEO (you can see with your own eyes) urging OTHER radicals to by weapons from guns shows, because it's so easy. Why are you deflecting from that very important point?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you said, but you can still buy semi-auto's..
CORRECT! I presented a quote from Gadahn urging terrorists to buy weapons (including full auto) at gun shows, because "it's so easy" according to Gadahn.
AND...I agreed with you that a person can NOT legally buy full auto weapons at gun shows!
Then, I said you can still buy semi auto, and MANY other style weapons at guns shows....so the terrorists (Gadahn's) premise remains the same.
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
And no law written will EVER stop a criminal or terrorist from getting what they want.
I agree! I don't think I remember hearing ANYONE say a law will completely stop anything....BUT, it can make it a lot harder! I mean, why do you want to make it easier for the terrorists?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
And there are already laws n the books making it illegal fro them to obtain firearms.
Correct! However, the gun show/private seller LOOPHOLE allows them to skirt that law...thanks for proving my point!!!!:D :)
So, why not do background checks at guns hows and private sellers, to ENSURE good gun sellers aren't selling to criminals and terrorists? How can we enforce the law of them NOT owning a gun, if they can simply buy a gun without giving I.D. or a background check?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
And I don't care what you call it as long as it is accurate. Call it "Bunny's Fantasy Loophole". It's a more accurate description because that is all it is.
Why not simply call it a way to skirt the law, and make it easy for terrorists? I mean, it does make it extremely easy for them! They even say so themselves!

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110413 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>So it's simply the wording? The fact that terrorists and criminals can easily buy guns from private sellers, and gun shows allows them to evade the Brady law. Call it a loop hole, call it evading the law, call it a terrorists dream, call it santa clause....I don't care, because my point still stands the same. The "thing" that allows terrorists to buy guns from private sellers and gun shows without fear of a background check, or I.D. should be called......what????
Change the wording if you want to, the premise is still the same.
OK...one more time for the slow-in-the-uptake. If you must have a name for it, how about calling it CRIMINAL ACTIVITY. It is already ILLEGAL for criminals and terrorists (redundancy alert.....terrorists ARE criminals) to buy fireams FROM ANYONE. Nothing "ALLOWS" them to do it. There is NO WAY for them to do it LEGALLY at a gunshow or anywhere else. Hence.....NO LOOPHOLE. Get it now? Because I can't dumb it down for you anymore than that.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110414 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>Ummm, AV....can you read? It wasn't >my< claim...it was a DIRECT QUOTE from the terrorist Adam Gadahn, lol, duh!
So, you have proven NOTHING I said false. Again, it was a direct quote. AND, I agreed with you that they don't sell FULL auto weapons...but they do sell SEMI auto weapons (and many other weapons) so it doesn't change the FACT that terrorist Gadahn made a VIDEO (you can see with your own eyes) urging OTHER radicals to by weapons from guns shows, because it's so easy. Why are you deflecting from that very important point?
<quoted text>CORRECT! I presented a quote from Gadahn urging terrorists to buy weapons (including full auto) at gun shows, because "it's so easy" according to Gadahn.
AND...I agreed with you that a person can NOT legally buy full auto weapons at gun shows!
Then, I said you can still buy semi auto, and MANY other style weapons at guns shows....so the terrorists (Gadahn's) premise remains the same.
<quoted text>I agree! I don't think I remember hearing ANYONE say a law will completely stop anything....BUT, it can make it a lot harder! I mean, why do you want to make it easier for the terrorists?
<quoted text>Correct! However, the gun show/private seller LOOPHOLE allows them to skirt that law...thanks for proving my point!!!!:D :)
So, why not do background checks at guns hows and private sellers, to ENSURE good gun sellers aren't selling to criminals and terrorists? How can we enforce the law of them NOT owning a gun, if they can simply buy a gun without giving I.D. or a background check?
<quoted text>Why not simply call it a way to skirt the law, and make it easy for terrorists? I mean, it does make it extremely easy for them! They even say so themselves!
Because they are not "skirting the law". What they are doing is still a.......say it with me........CRIMINAL ACT. And any private citizen that knowingly sells to a criminal/terrorist is also breaking the law.

{SMH} I'm done with you. Like I said before. Come back when you can make a new argument.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110415 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
OK...one more time for the slow-in-the-uptake. If you must have a name for it, how about calling it CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
So, skirting the Brady law is criminal activity.... Really? Even if the person buying a gun from a gun show/private seller is NOT a criminal?
Pay attention: we are talking about ALL gun buyers that use gun shows/private sellers (criminals, legal gun buyers, terrorists, etc...) the process that allows them (even the legal buyers) to skirt the Brady Law is called.......what? Should we just call it 'skirting the law'? A legal gun buyer skirting the Brady law is NOT criminal activity...it's simply skirting the law (loophole).
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
It is already ILLEGAL for criminals and terrorists (redundancy alert.....terrorists ARE criminals) to buy fireams FROM ANYONE.
Correct. BUT we are talking about ALL gun show/private gun buyers...that includes legal gun buyers that skirt the Brady law too, not just criminal/terorists...get my point?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing "ALLOWS" them to do it.
Not having to provide I.D. or a background check makes it extremely easy for them....it's undeniable. There's not even an argument.
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
There is NO WAY for them to do it LEGALLY at a gunshow or anywhere else.
Yet, they can walk right in, buy a dozen semi auto weapons, walk right out, no questions asked.....and be on the terrorist watch list at the same time. It has happened...true story :)
How can you not have enough logic to understand how that is dangerous?????????
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Hence.....NO LOOPHOLE.
Then how can they walk right in to a gun show, buy a dozen semi auto weapons, walk out no questions asked, and be on the terror watch list at the same time?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Get it now?
Nope...because your point is moot. You and I both know criminals, terrorists, AND legal gun buyers are buying guns at gun shows. It's a PROVEN DOCUMENTED fact!
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Because I can't dumb it down for you anymore than that.
Could you possibly use LOGIC and critical thinking...and smart it up?
That's where you're lacking!
You already have the "dumb down" covered wonderfully.
Time to smart it up!

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#110416 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Because they are not "skirting the law".
Then what do you call it when a legal gun buyer does not comply with the Brady Law? They simply go to a private seller/gun show which allows them to skirt/not comply with the law....right?
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
What they are doing is still a.......say it with me........CRIMINAL ACT..
So, you agree with most gun control activists that legal gun buyers NOT complying with the Brady law is criminal? Interesting!
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
And any private citizen that knowingly sells to a criminal/terrorist is also breaking the law.
Well AV....that seller wouldn't KNOW if the buyer is a criminal/terrorist because they have a loophole that allows them to skirt the very law that would identify them! Thanks for proving my point :)
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
{SMH} I'm done with you. Like I said before. Come back when you can make a new argument.
Truth hurts I see :D

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110417 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>So, skirting the Brady law is criminal activity.... Really? Even if the person buying a gun from a gun show/private seller is NOT a criminal?
Pay attention: we are talking about ALL gun buyers that use gun shows/private sellers (criminals, legal gun buyers, terrorists, etc...) the process that allows them (even the legal buyers) to skirt the Brady Law is called.......what? Should we just call it 'skirting the law'? A legal gun buyer skirting the Brady law is NOT criminal activity...it's simply skirting the law (loophole).
<quoted text>Correct. BUT we are talking about ALL gun show/private gun buyers...that includes legal gun buyers that skirt the Brady law too, not just criminal/terorists...get my point?
<quoted text>
Not having to provide I.D. or a background check makes it extremely easy for them....it's undeniable. There's not even an argument.
<quoted text>Yet, they can walk right in, buy a dozen semi auto weapons, walk right out, no questions asked.....and be on the terrorist watch list at the same time. It has happened...true story :)
How can you not have enough logic to understand how that is dangerous?????????
<quoted text>Then how can they walk right in to a gun show, buy a dozen semi auto weapons, walk out no questions asked, and be on the terror watch list at the same time?
<quoted text>Nope...because your point is moot. You and I both know criminals, terrorists, AND legal gun buyers are buying guns at gun shows. It's a PROVEN DOCUMENTED fact!
<quoted text>Could you possibly use LOGIC and critical thinking...and smart it up?
That's where you're lacking!
You already have the "dumb down" covered wonderfully.
Time to smart it up!
I swear you are dumber than a bag of hammers. I guess I will have to dumb-it-down even further for you since you can't seem to grasp the concept.

If it is NOT REQUIRED BY LAW for two private individuals, who are both allowed to own a firearm, to go through a background check when buying/selling a firearm, then NO LAW IS BEING SKIRTED. The Brady law does NOT require private sales to submit to a background check. Did you hear that......BY LAW, IT IS NOT REQUIRED. A background check is only required when doing business with a federally licensed DEALER. And it is ALREADY ILLEGAL for a criminal/terrorist to buy a gun FROM ANYONE!

And a DOCUMENTED fact, huh? Post your "documents" showing where a terrorist was caught using a firearm purchased at a gunshow. I won't hold my breath.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110418 Sep 10, 2013
Poor little Bunny. Still playing the same bullshit semantic games she was playing before she disappeared. Why am I not surprised.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#110419 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>Then what do you call it when a legal gun buyer does not comply with the Brady Law? They simply go to a private seller/gun show which allows them to skirt/not comply with the law....right?
WRONG! If it is NOT REQUIRED BY LAW for them to submit to a background check for a private sale, then they are NOT GETTING AROUND ANY LAW. It is a LAWFUL PURCHASE.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#110420 Sep 10, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>I own guns, I am aware what's involved in buying a gun....but thank you!
there is on way with the claims you are making unless they are toy guns.
Punching for Justice

Houston, TX

#110421 Sep 10, 2013
UK is considered the most violent country in the entire EU.

Apparently the Brits didn't realize knives, fists, bats, and many other things can kill a person. And the fact most Brits don't have the time to master self defense and also because self defense is illegal in the UK.
AnswersRus

Riverton, WY

#110422 Sep 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
Poor little Bunny. Still playing the same bullshit semantic games she was playing before she disappeared. Why am I not surprised.
One can assume that the reason why there is no change, is, she got her lobotomy from an "approved" surgeon who is on the Obamacare list of surgeons.
truth

Perth, Australia

#110424 Sep 11, 2013
mobile mob ob ill bum keeeeeeeee
image then press anything anywhere..
most worst in future..

Did you have legal document you are terrorist?

How much mobile;tel cost?

billions much more per year..

Whats deference between
'good seeds and very bad seeds'=bible

chip within and image
explain words projection..

Are you going give legal document who ever have mobile tel as terrorist?

Your Law is not my law.

Law which act beside stalking are not law.

Law which act as concessional are Law.
What deference between conc. or conquare>
Sion and sense..
sensor

Please explain finger from continent to continent.

Where are you liked hide yourself?
Under water or under mountains!
truth

Perth, Australia

#110425 Sep 11, 2013
Are you for sure you don't have legal document you are not mob ill tel terrorist?

Who can and who can't?

If you can..did you need asked someone from terrorist org.. or Authority?!

Did you need asked someone from trade..about what tragedy or where you can find mob?

What you will do if happen globally.
Do you liked dance as bal or cocky or you run as sim baaaa sim byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Are you stalking me?

n

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110426 Sep 12, 2013
MD Conservative wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are willing to give up MY RIGHTS and those of others that exercise their Second Amendment to keep firearms out of the hands of .00001% got it.
Wow! Can you possibly be more Anti-American, Anti-Constitution?
Yet no one has proposed anything that would keep firearms out of the hands of honest, upstanding, law abiding citizens, just the .0001% of the public who aren't so law abiding, upstanding, or honest, so I'm finding it hard to understand your discontent with the restrictions and more so stringent guidelines, that is, unless you yourself are part of that .0001 percentile...?!

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