It's the Guns, Stupid

It's the Guns, Stupid

There are 103296 comments on the Truthdig story from Apr 20, 2007, titled It's the Guns, Stupid. In it, Truthdig reports that:

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Truthdig.

AnswersRus

Riverton, WY

#110342 Sep 8, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
...
Make me.
I thought you would like me to act like you. What's wrong now that has you so pissed off?
Marauder

North Pole, AK

#110343 Sep 8, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
1. It's not ONLY that we do not have the resources to prosecute an extra 80,000 people a year....it's not logical because we can't prove if those people knowingly knew they couldn't buy a gun!
2. Even republican senators agree...it's not just Biden you fool!
Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
3. There is a gun show loophole...and you know it! There are LAWS that require background checks....gun shows do not have to comply wiht that law...HENCE: The loop hole. Quit playing semantics :)
Use of the "Gun Show Loophole" has been advocated by terrorists you fool!!!!!
In the summer of 2011, Adam Gadahn declared that "America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms." He also claimed that, "You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card," Gadahn urged Western extremists to follow this path.
Don't be such a fool...you're arming terrorists!
1. Excusing criminal behavior...why are you defending criminal activity...? Ignorance of the law is no excuse...is it...?

2. "Even republican senators agree...it's not just Biden you fool!"

I don't give a rat's arse who agrees...it's illegal and should be prosecuted...otherwise, why have the penelty...?...why have any laws unless they get enforced...? Talk about a hypocrite.

3. "There is a gun show loophole...and you know it!"

No such thing. The law requires Federal Licensed Dealers to conduct the background checks for handgun sales...PERIOD. A "loophole" would be where a licensed dealer could legally sell a handgun without having to do a background check.

"There are LAWS that require background checks..."...FOR FFL DEALERS.

"Quit playing semantics..."

It's NOT semantics...it's the law...I just won't allow you or anyone else get away with attempting to redefine "loophole" to fit your agenda. The "gun show loophole" doesn't exist.
Marauder

North Pole, AK

#110344 Sep 8, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>This^ is how the gun nuts deflect from the numbers!
Instead of acknowledging that MILLIONS of criminals have been STOPPED (documented) from buying guns legally, they AVOID that part, and try to twist it into something bad, because they haven't been "prosecuted"! lol!
...without ever acknowledging the numbers they denied to begin with!
AND, here's a good REPUBLICAN example of WHY they haven't been prosecuted!
"Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
In the past, Justice Department officials have also said that these crimes are inherently difficult to prosecute, because it’s tough to prove that someone was knowingly and deliberately lying on his or her form."
Quit deflecting!
Quit defending the criminal acts of criminals!!!
Marauder

North Pole, AK

#110345 Sep 8, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
You avoided the YES or NO question:
Is stopping 80,000 criminals a year from legally buying guns a good thing...yes or no?
I have not ignored ANYTHING about them not being prosecuted. I have replied to that very issue in at least 5 posts...can you read?
The fact that THOUSANDS of criminals are denied every year is PROOF back ground checks work.
Trying to change the goal post to "have they been prosecuted" is a deflection from the FACT that the numbers show it works!
EXAMPLE:
"Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
In the past, Justice Department officials have also said that these crimes are inherently difficult to prosecute, because it’s tough to prove that someone was knowingly and deliberately lying on his or her form."
Thank you Thank you Thank you....and coming from a republican^
Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
You said "and all you did was stop them from obtaining a firearm"....LOL! Isn't that a good thing? You imply that's it's not that great??? It makes you look desperate.
"Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
You said "and all you did was stop them from obtaining a firearm"....LOL! Isn't that a good thing? You imply that's it's not that great??? It makes you look desperate."

Talk about desperate...YOU defend the criminal activities of criminals...then you give a PARTIAL quote (disengenuous) of the person you're responding too...lol

Here is what he said...but of course that doesn't fit your claim so you have to alter it;

"...all you did was stop them from obtaining a firearm at THAT location."
Marauder

North Pole, AK

#110346 Sep 8, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>
1. It's not ONLY that we do not have the resources to prosecute an extra 80,000 people a year....it's not logical because we can't prove if those people knowingly knew they couldn't buy a gun!
2. Even republican senators agree...it's not just Biden you fool!
Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
3. There is a gun show loophole...and you know it! There are LAWS that require background checks....gun shows do not have to comply wiht that law...HENCE: The loop hole. Quit playing semantics :)
Use of the "Gun Show Loophole" has been advocated by terrorists you fool!!!!!
In the summer of 2011, Adam Gadahn declared that "America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms." He also claimed that, "You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card," Gadahn urged Western extremists to follow this path.
Don't be such a fool...you're arming terrorists!
BTW...did you catch the lie from your "terrorist"...? That of course is used and repeated to incite the wrath of the ignorant. I would say in your case they were successful.
frammle

Donora, PA

#110347 Sep 8, 2013
youtube.com/watch... ……
Guns are cool
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#110349 Sep 9, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>No, it's not a "claim"....it's a fact.
I can't help that you are not educated on this issue.
The mere poit that I didn't post a link, doesn't change the FACT...that it's a FACT!
Refute it if it's untrue?
NO?....as expected :)
BUT...I'll play along and help you out!
The Facts -(from a site that acknowledges millions have been stopped since the bil started, but still feels it's unfair to deny thjose people guns....s the site is obviously unbiased to my point)
"All told, in 2010, the FBI and state agencies denied a firearm to nearly 153,000 people via the NICS system. To keep things simple, we will focus on the FBI, using a report on the 2010 data by Ronald J. Frandsen of the Regional Justice Information Service.
About 99 percent of people who apply to buy a firearm are quickly cleared. But about 1 to 2 percent are denied, mainly because the records show that he or she has a felony indictment or conviction. The data also show that about 5 percent successfully appeal their denials.
Applications: 6,037,394
FBI denials: 72,659 (1.2 percent)
Appeals 16,513 (22.7 percent)
Successful appeals 3,491 (4.77 percent of denials)
The main reason listed for a denial is a felony conviction or indictment. Here are some of the key reasons:
Felony: 34,459 (47.4 percent)
Fugitive: 13,862 (19.1 percent)
State law prohibition: 7,666 (10.6 percent)
Drug use/addiction: 6,971 (9.6 percent)
Read'm and weep little dude!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-chec...
Here's the part of the report that you and your article fail to address;

Of your 62,928 denials that violated the law, only 62 were referred for prosecution.

Prosecutors declined to prosecute 18...leaving 44...WOW!!!...isn't that awesome...?

I'm not willing to support a new law that's going to infringe on my rights when the current laws are not being enforced.
YOUR SugarDaddy

London, UK

#110351 Sep 9, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>I did answer about those denied being prosecuted.
Did you miss it? I said the point is MOOT!
The fact that THOUSANDS of criminals are denied every year is PROOF back ground checks work.
Trying to change the goal post to "have they been prosecuted" is a deflection from the FACT that the numbers show it works!
It is not illegal to try and buy a firearm legally. You simply get denied. A lot of people don't even realize they can't buy a gun, and they find out when they're denied. It's not illegal to TRY to buy a gun. It IS illegal to ACTUALLY buy it when denied.
Here's a good example of my point:
"Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
In the past, Justice Department officials have also said that these crimes are inherently difficult to prosecute, because it’s tough to prove that someone was knowingly and deliberately lying on his or her form."
Thank you Thank you Thank you....and coming from a republican^
Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
Don't you think stopping almost 80,000 criminal a year from getting a gun is a good thing? Yes or no?
Said the Sti nkH oleCu ntBit ch!!!
:-))
Up Yours

London, UK

#110352 Sep 9, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>I did answer about those denied being prosecuted.
Did you miss it? I said the point is MOOT!
The fact that THOUSANDS of criminals are denied every year is PROOF back ground checks work.
Trying to change the goal post to "have they been prosecuted" is a deflection from the FACT that the numbers show it works!
It is not illegal to try and buy a firearm legally. You simply get denied. A lot of people don't even realize they can't buy a gun, and they find out when they're denied. It's not illegal to TRY to buy a gun. It IS illegal to ACTUALLY buy it when denied.
Here's a good example of my point:
"Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
In the past, Justice Department officials have also said that these crimes are inherently difficult to prosecute, because it’s tough to prove that someone was knowingly and deliberately lying on his or her form."
Thank you Thank you Thank you....and coming from a republican^
Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
Don't you think stopping almost 80,000 criminal a year from getting a gun is a good thing? Yes or no?
Said the Sti nkH oleC untBi tch!!!
:-))
Pale Rider

Stroud, UK

#110353 Sep 9, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>I did answer about those denied being prosecuted.
Did you miss it? I said the point is MOOT!
The fact that THOUSANDS of criminals are denied every year is PROOF back ground checks work.
Trying to change the goal post to "have they been prosecuted" is a deflection from the FACT that the numbers show it works!
It is not illegal to try and buy a firearm legally. You simply get denied. A lot of people don't even realize they can't buy a gun, and they find out when they're denied. It's not illegal to TRY to buy a gun. It IS illegal to ACTUALLY buy it when denied.
Here's a good example of my point:
"Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), Walsh agreed, arguing that there was little point in going after people who had already failed background checks — since they were unable to buy guns anyway.“There’s no way the Department of Justice could have prosecuted all 1.5 million people who were rejected over that 15 year period.”
In the past, Justice Department officials have also said that these crimes are inherently difficult to prosecute, because it’s tough to prove that someone was knowingly and deliberately lying on his or her form."
Thank you Thank you Thank you....and coming from a republican^
Quit playing semantics and deflecting from the astounding numbers.
Don't you think stopping almost 80,000 criminal a year from getting a gun is a good thing? Yes or no?
Said the Sti nkH oleC untB itch!!!
:-))

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110354 Sep 9, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
"As a matter of fact, from 1999 to 2009, 1.8 million people were blocked from purchasing guns after failing a background check because they had criminal records or suffered from mental illness."
So how many of those 1.8 million people went about stealing a gun from somewhere else or purchasing from a yard sale...a bulletin board ad...a classified ad...or Craigs List...? Those people were NOT stopped from acquiring a firearm.
How many of those 1.8 million people were convicted felons...? Their attempted purchase of a firearm is another felony but the vast majority of them were never charged or prosecuted for that felony offense...WHY...?
Because according to Uncle Joe Biden, "WE", the United Staes of America collectively, don't have the resources to prosecute them.
SO, until "WE" can start enforcing the current laws to see what affect that would have, "I", and many others, will NOT support the expansion of a law into private sales.
I'll answer your questions with an question and answer:

Q: How many of those 1.8 million people stopped a law-abiding citizens from legally purchasing a firearm?

A: NONE!

So what's your point? Inasmuch as the legal measures prevented firearms from falling into the hands of those miscreants, yet didn't prevent you or myself from purchasing them, what does it matter?

The harder that we can make it for criminals to engage in criminality, the better off we all are for it! And that's an empirically documented fact!!

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110355 Sep 9, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
"In fact, Seung Hui Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech and Jared Loughner, who targeted Gabby Giffords, both obtained their guns legally and slipped through the cracksof the existing background check system."
You really should try and not contradict yourself in one sentence. They did obtain their firearms legally, therefore there was NO "crack" in the existing system for them to slip thru.
There were opportunites for both of them to be identified as people in need of assistance, but those in positions of authority to take that action failed. Because of these failures, they were never identified as someone that would be on the list to be denied the legal purchase of a firearm.
They "failed" because the regulations weren't as stringent as the new provisions would make them, thereby demonstrating the need for more stringent guidelines in firearm purchases that would serve to seal those 'cracks'.

Thanks for helping me to make my point!

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110357 Sep 9, 2013
AnswersRus wrote:
<quoted text>
How many of those 1.8 million "criminals" were prosecuted? Less than 10%.
All that happened was you forced about a million people to obtain their weapons illegally. What's the benefit of that?
Yet they WERE prevented the legal purchase of a firearm, forcing them to pursue alternative means of acquisition which, in case you're unaware, the increase in difficulty resulting from the new provisions would serve to make it even harder still, perhaps even altogether impossible, for the criminally minded/mentally unbalanced to obtain firearms.

The "benefit" being that we've served to keep just that many more firearms out of the hands of criminals, and even more still once the new provisions are enacted, while any honest, upstanding citizen is still able to legally purchase their forearms.

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110358 Sep 9, 2013
AnswersRus wrote:
<quoted text>
Please address the questions I posed to you in my reply just before this one.
Happy now?
Up YOURS

Stroud, UK

#110359 Sep 9, 2013
good grief wrote:
<quoted text>Do you really think anyone believes you are another person when you change your name and post from the same location 3 times in a row within 2 minutes ?
Said the Sti nkH oleC untB itch!!!
:-))
Fling

Stroud, UK

#110360 Sep 9, 2013
just an allusion wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll answer your questions with an question and answer:
Q: How many of those 1.8 million people stopped a law-abiding citizens from legally purchasing a firearm?
A: NONE!
So what's your point? Inasmuch as the legal measures prevented firearms from falling into the hands of those miscreants, yet didn't prevent you or myself from purchasing them, what does it matter?
The harder that we can make it for criminals to engage in criminality, the better off we all are for it! And that's an empirically documented fact!!
WHEN was the last time that any man-made law STOPPED ANYTHING from happening, DEAD IN ITS TRACKS?

TALK ABOUT THAT!
Zipper

UK

#110361 Sep 9, 2013
just an allusion wrote:
<quoted text>
Happy now?
Are =>YOU<= happy that =>YOUR<= laws are causing many people to fall prey to MURDER?

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110362 Sep 9, 2013
MD Conservative wrote:
<quoted text>
1 example out of 1.8 million. Hmmm let's see that is less than .00001%
So your claim is that allowing the Fed to have access to our medical records will eliminate that .00001% and no more gun crimes will occur. The mentally ill and felons will never get their hands on guns. Gun crimes will *poof* vanish.
LMFAO!!!! Not in a million fcking years will I give up one iota of my privacy for a .00001% reduction in firearms getting into wrong hands.
No, my "claim" is that the current provisions aren't as sufficient as they could be to stop firearm purchases by the mentally ill/unstable, or the criminally minded, and that the more stringent provisions would serve to close even more of the loopholes that those sort have been shown to exploit in order to obtain firearms.

Also, the access to PSYCHOLOGICAL (NOT "medical") records would serve to insure that just that many fewer firearms wouldn't fall into the hands of the mentally unbalanced through anything than less than legal means, thereby making their obtaining them all that much more harder, perhaps even turning them away from the effort required.

The more you can discourage criminality, the less criminality we are likely to have to suffer.
MD Conservative wrote:
I am willing to bet you believe the government won't abuse that too. "Oh that person is ADD, no gun for you. Oh that person had a DUI, no gun for you. Oh that person had to see a psychiatrist because of his divorce (death in family, insert something trivial), no gun for you." If you don't think the government will abuse the hell out of taking guns away then you are dumber than you come across.
Wow! Just WOW! Delusional? Paranoid much? Sheesh!

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110363 Sep 9, 2013
Fling wrote:
<quoted text>
WHEN was the last time that any man-made law STOPPED ANYTHING from happening, DEAD IN ITS TRACKS?
TALK ABOUT THAT!
Inasmuch as we cannot control the minds of people or dictate their conscience, the best we can do is whatever else that we CAN to deter them from pursuing criminality by making it as hard as possible for those so inclined to engage in it while safeguarding the rights and lives of the moral, upstanding, innocent, and law abiding citizenry.

No one has EVER said anything about 'stopping anything...dead in it's tracks', though one can always hope, can't one?!

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#110364 Sep 9, 2013
Zipper wrote:
<quoted text>
Are =>YOU<= happy that =>YOUR<= laws are causing many people to fall prey to MURDER?
I am happy that we are at least making the effort to impose laws that serve to protect the innocent from harm, criminality, and the wanton violation of their person.

I fail to see how any of our laws are "causing many to fall prey to murder"...?!

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