It's the Guns, Stupid

Apr 20, 2007 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Truthdig

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

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“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

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#107730
May 20, 2013
 

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Anonymous of Indy wrote:
<quoted text>Basically the 14th amendment left the US Bill of Rights in the US Constitution up to the SCOTUS to specify which of the Federal Bill of Rights of the US Constitution that the states had to guarantee and the 2nd amendment was the last one to be incorporated & forced down to the state & local level which we can thank the Republicans for the 14th amendment.
Incorporation of the Bill of Rights
The incorporation of the Bill of Rights (or incorporation for short) is the process by which American courts have applied portions of the U.S. Bill of Rights to the states. Prior to 1868 (passage of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution's due process clause), the Bill of Rights was held only to apply to the federal government. Under the incorporation doctrine, most provisions of the Bill of Rights now also apply to the state and local governments.
Prior to the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment and the development of the incorporation doctrine, the Supreme Court in 1833 held in Barron v. Baltimore that the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal, but not any state governments. Even years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court in United States v. Cruikshank (1876) still held that the First and Second Amendment did not apply to state governments. However, beginning in the 1920s, a series of United States Supreme Court decisions interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment to "incorporate" most portions of the Bill of Rights, making these portions, for the first time, enforceable against the state governments.
Amendment II
Right to keep and bear arms
This right has been incorporated against the states. See McDonald v. Chicago (2010).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of...
The Fourteenth Amendment: The Framing of America's Second Constitution
http://law.duke.edu/news/1730/
ALL of the decisions of the USurpreme Kourt have been erroneous on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. The right pre-exists all American constitutions. And was a reserved right of the people from ALL government 'control'. We held it as British subjects, and brought it with us when becoming citizens of the United States of America. To Wit:

"Not that the right to keep and bear arms owed its origin to the constitution, for none knew better than the framers of that instrument that the right was pre-existent, and older than any and all constitutions. Therefore, as maintained in the argument, those profound and erudite statesmen chose for their purpose, not the language by which some new boon was to be created or bestowed, but that by which an old and immemorial right was to be recognized and fortified--"the right of the people *** shall not be infringed."- Judge William Henry Barnum,[People, Ex. Rel. Bielfeld, v. Affelt. Illinois--Cook County Circuit Court. 1879.]
http://gunshowonthenet.blogspot.com/2013/05/t...

(That court case was removed from public record. For the Judge went into discussion of our right in better fashion,(for the most part), than any case I've ever seen).

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Black, along with Justices Douglas and Swayne made the same basic argument in Adamson v. People Of State Of California, U.S. Supreme Court,(Justice Black, Douglas and Swayne in Dissent), June 23, 1947.

The right is in no wise dependent upon a piece of paper for existence. It is ours whether our governments want it to be or not.
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107731
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall NOT be infringed".
A powerful lobby provides a consistent noise into the ears of our citizenry that these gun purchases are constitutional rights protected by the Second Amendment .... Our decisions belie that argument, for the Second Amendment was designed for no other purpose than to keep alive the militia.
Justice William O. Douglas

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

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#107732
May 20, 2013
 

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spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
A powerful lobby provides a consistent noise into the ears of our citizenry that these gun purchases are constitutional rights protected by the Second Amendment .... Our decisions belie that argument, for the Second Amendment was designed for no other purpose than to keep alive the militia.
Justice William O. Douglas
"...In addition to the original rights secured to him in the first article of amendments,[Fourteenth Amendment] he had secured the free exercise of his religious belief, and freedom of speech and the press. Then he had secured to him the right to keep and bear arms in his defense. Then, after that, his home was secured in time of peace from the presence of a soldier; and,still further, sir, his house, his papers, and his effects were protected against unreasonable seizure...."

"'Though originally the first ten Amendments were adopted as limitations on Federal power, yet in so far as they secure and recognize fundamental rights-common law rights-of the man, they make them privileges and immunities of the man as citizen of the United States, and cannot now be abridged by a State under the Fourteenth Amendment. In other words, while the ten Amendments, as limitations on power, only apply to the Federal government, and not to the States, yet in so far as they declare or recognize rights of persons, these rights are theirs, as citizens of the United States, and the Fourteenth Amendment as to such rights limits state power, as the ten Amendments had limited Federal power..."

- Adamson v. People Of State Of California, U.S. Supreme Court,(Justice Black, Douglas and Swayne in Dissent), June 23, 1947.
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107733
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"...In addition to the original rights secured to him in the first article of amendments,[Fourteenth Amendment] he had secured the free exercise of his religious belief, and freedom of speech and the press. Then he had secured to him the right to keep and bear arms in his defense. Then, after that, his home was secured in time of peace from the presence of a soldier; and,still further, sir, his house, his papers, and his effects were protected against unreasonable seizure...."
"'Though originally the first ten Amendments were adopted as limitations on Federal power, yet in so far as they secure and recognize fundamental rights-common law rights-of the man, they make them privileges and immunities of the man as citizen of the United States, and cannot now be abridged by a State under the Fourteenth Amendment. In other words, while the ten Amendments, as limitations on power, only apply to the Federal government, and not to the States, yet in so far as they declare or recognize rights of persons, these rights are theirs, as citizens of the United States, and the Fourteenth Amendment as to such rights limits state power, as the ten Amendments had limited Federal power..."
- Adamson v. People Of State Of California, U.S. Supreme Court,(Justice Black, Douglas and Swayne in Dissent), June 23, 1947.
You are actually a good thing to the gun debate by representing the gunloons, the people that misrepresent the causes and costs of false consciousness regarding the constitutional concept of the "right to bear arms." You make others aware of the deceit, misperception, and dereliction of responsibility that have characterized America's dysfunctional gun debate coming from the loons. The only problem is you are boring us to tears with your poor, poor juice of copy & past crap from 200 years past!
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107734
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"...In addition to the original rights secured to him in the first article of amendments,[Fourteenth Amendment] he had secured the free exercise of his religious belief, and freedom of speech and the press. Then he had secured to him the right to keep and bear arms in his defense. Then, after that, his home was secured in time of peace from the presence of a soldier; and,still further, sir, his house, his papers, and his effects were protected against unreasonable seizure...."
"'Though originally the first ten Amendments were adopted as limitations on Federal power, yet in so far as they secure and recognize fundamental rights-common law rights-of the man, they make them privileges and immunities of the man as citizen of the United States, and cannot now be abridged by a State under the Fourteenth Amendment. In other words, while the ten Amendments, as limitations on power, only apply to the Federal government, and not to the States, yet in so far as they declare or recognize rights of persons, these rights are theirs, as citizens of the United States, and the Fourteenth Amendment as to such rights limits state power, as the ten Amendments had limited Federal power..."
- Adamson v. People Of State Of California, U.S. Supreme Court,(Justice Black, Douglas and Swayne in Dissent), June 23, 1947.
You are actually a good thing to the gun debate by representing the gunloons, the people that misrepresent the causes and costs of false consciousness regarding the constitutional concept of the "right to bear arms." You make others aware of the deceit, misperception, and dereliction of responsibility that have characterized America's dysfunctional gun debate coming from the loons. The only problem is you are boring us to tears with your poor, poor choice of copy & past crap from 200 years past!

Since: Aug 11

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#107735
May 20, 2013
 

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spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
You got your history seriously bungled old chap; The Communist Party of the Soviet Union did not emerge until the end of the Bolsheviks and the bloody civil war in 1922. The Bolsheviks orchestrated the October Revolution which overthrew the Provisional Government, thus transferring all governing power to the workers' councils (Russian: soviets). Immediately thereafter, the Bolsheviks founded the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic - the world's first constitutionally socialist state. After a bloody civil war, at the end of 1922 the Bolsheviks emerged victorious and unified territories of the former Russian Empire into the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). I seriously doubt that your man Lincoln had anything to do with it :-)
You got your history seriously bungled old chap Karl Marx was dead when Vladimir Lenin implemented the so called communism in Russia which was no where near True Communism but a form of Socialism that incorporates totalitarianism with no chances of achieving Communism but what is known today as Leninism and not Communism and why sociologist defined what Lenin said was communism but as Leninism and when Lenin died Stalin took over and implemented the worst form of Socialism that incorporates totalitarianism which sociologist call Stalinism which is not even close to true communism.

Leninism

In Marxist philosophy, Leninism is the body of political theory for the democratic organisation of a revolutionary vanguard party, and the achievement of a direct-democracy dictatorship of the proletariat, as political prelude to the establishment of socialism. Developed by, and named for, the Russian revolutionary Lenin (Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, 1870–1924), Leninism comprises political and socialist economic theories, developed from Marxism, and Lenin’s interpretations of Marxist theory, for practical application to the socio-political conditions of the agrarian Russian Empire (1721–1917) of the early 20th century. In February 1917, for five years, Leninism was the Russian application of Marxist economics and political philosophy, effected and realised by the Bolshevik party, the vanguard party who led the fight for the political independence of the working class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism

Stalinism

Stalinism is a theory and practice for developing a communist society, conceived and implemented by Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union whilst officially adhering to Marxist–Leninism. Some criticize Stalinist practical measures, such as repression and economic policy, as a deviation from both Marxist and Leninist philosophy.

Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, socialism in one country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party - deemed to be the most forefront vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107736
May 20, 2013
 

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Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's ANOTHER clue for the clueless. There are MILLIONS of them in the hands of law-abiding citizens that will NEVER be used to kill anyone.
Well, that is not true now, is it?...How many law abiding husbands, fathers, friends, cops wives use their legally bought guns to top themselves or to murder their siblings, wives mother in-laws kids, fathers, father in laws, lawyers and innocent bystanders annually in Yankee land? With an average of 30,000 gun deaths a year, quite a few I would say, eh? You are so bloody stupid.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107737
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Not for long:
"If, then, the arms-bearing right of the people is, as Blackstone says, an integral and inseparable part of their absolute rights as individuals, it follows that any and every constitution which assumes to protect life, liberty and property, necessarily insures the right of all the people to keep and bear arms, unless the contrary intention is clearly expressed, Hence the right is in nowise dependent upon the clause asserting that a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. The right exists whether the constitution contains that clause or not...."
"...But "these instruments," he says, "measure the power of the rulers; they do not measure the rights of the governed:" Cooley's Constitutional Limitations 37. "Neither military nor civil law," says the same high authority, "can take from the citizen the right to bear arms for the common defence. This is an inherited and traditionary right, guaranteed, also, by state and federal constitutions...."
"....... For all these repugnances of our statute to the acts of congress, I must pronounce the former unauthorized legislation in all its parts. Let the relator be discharged."
- Judge William Henry Barnum,[People, Ex. Rel. Bielfeld, v. Affelt. Illinois--Cook County Circuit Court. 1879.]
http://gunshowonthenet.blogspot.com/2013/05/t...
Yada, yada, yada, you are still losing ground, you gun toting tit.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107738
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"Not that the right to keep and bear arms owed its origin to the constitution, for none knew better than the framers of that instrument that the right was pre-existent, and older than any and all constitutions. Therefore, as maintained in the argument, those profound and erudite statesmen chose for their purpose, not the language by which some new boon was to be created or bestowed, but that by which an old and immemorial right was to be recognized and fortified--"the right of the people *** shall not be infringed."
"Blackstone says: "The principle aim of society is to protect individuals in the enjoyment of those absolute rights which were vested in them by the immutable laws of nature." That those absolute rights are the right of personal security, the right of personal liberty, and the right of private property; that these are "usually summed up in one general appellation, and denominated the natural liberty of mankind," liberty "more generally talked of," he says, "than thoroughly understood." "auxiliary" and "subordinate" to these, he continues, are certain other rights, which serve principally as outworks, or barriers, to protect and maintain inviolate the three great and primary rights of personal security, personal liberty, and private property: 1 Blackstone Com. 141.
"Among these auxiliary rights and outworks of natural liberty, the distinguished commentator ranks, along with the "regular adminstration of justice" and the "right of petition," the co-equal "right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence." The context leaves no doubt of the author's meaning, that the people's right to keep and use arms, was a barrier against the encroachments of rulers as well as others...."
- Judge William Henry Barnum,[People, Ex. Rel. Bielfeld, v. Affelt. Illinois--Cook County Circuit Court. 1879.]
http://gunshowonthenet.blogspot.com/2013/05/t...
Can you feel the center of your world moving beneath your feet yet? It is moving soooo slow you can barely feel it, but moving it is.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107739
May 20, 2013
 

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GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall NOT be infringed".
It doesn't have to be to, to change laws about the typy of weapons you idiots need to kill a squirrel.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107740
May 20, 2013
 

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You are all wrong! Communism has never existed as a government anywhere in the world...it is socialism or the branches of it but never communism....ever...
This is like seeing the media idiots call crackers, hackers or vise a verse.
I wonder how this misinformation actually starts, it is like the Emperor and his new clothes story?

FYI....Crackers aren't hackers and Communism has never existed as a government anywhere on the Blue Planet! OK!~
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107741
May 20, 2013
 

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Anonymous of Indy wrote:
<quoted text>You got your history seriously bungled old chap Karl Marx was dead when Vladimir Lenin implemented the so called communism in Russia which was no where near True Communism but a form of Socialism that incorporates totalitarianism with no chances of achieving Communism but what is known today as Leninism and not Communism and why sociologist defined what Lenin said was communism but as Leninism and when Lenin died Stalin took over and implemented the worst form of Socialism that incorporates totalitarianism which sociologist call Stalinism which is not even close to true communism.
Leninism
In Marxist philosophy, Leninism is the body of political theory for the democratic organisation of a revolutionary vanguard party, and the achievement of a direct-democracy dictatorship of the proletariat, as political prelude to the establishment of socialism. Developed by, and named for, the Russian revolutionary Lenin (Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, 1870–1924), Leninism comprises political and socialist economic theories, developed from Marxism, and Lenin’s interpretations of Marxist theory, for practical application to the socio-political conditions of the agrarian Russian Empire (1721–1917) of the early 20th century. In February 1917, for five years, Leninism was the Russian application of Marxist economics and political philosophy, effected and realised by the Bolshevik party, the vanguard party who led the fight for the political independence of the working class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leninism
Stalinism
Stalinism is a theory and practice for developing a communist society, conceived and implemented by Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union whilst officially adhering to Marxist–Leninism. Some criticize Stalinist practical measures, such as repression and economic policy, as a deviation from both Marxist and Leninist philosophy.
Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, socialism in one country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party - deemed to be the most forefront vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
Huh? Yes that was kinda' my point Einstein ...
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107742
May 20, 2013
 

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Ahomana wrote:
You are all wrong! Communism has never existed as a government anywhere in the world...it is socialism or the branches of it but never communism....ever...
This is like seeing the media idiots call crackers, hackers or vise a verse.
I wonder how this misinformation actually starts, it is like the Emperor and his new clothes story?
FYI....Crackers aren't hackers and Communism has never existed as a government anywhere on the Blue Planet! OK!~
I agree, over the decades, governments have used the "Communist" name to obtained power all over the globe!

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

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#107743
May 20, 2013
 

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spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
You are actually a good thing to the gun debate by representing the gunloons, the people that misrepresent the causes and costs of false consciousness regarding the constitutional concept of the "right to bear arms." You make others aware of the deceit, misperception, and dereliction of responsibility that have characterized America's dysfunctional gun debate coming from the loons. The only problem is you are boring us to tears with your poor, poor choice of copy & past crap from 200 years past!
"There is an important distinction between firearms and fireworks. Some general knowledge of firearms is important to the public welfare; because it would be impossible, in case of war to organize promptly an efficient force of volunteers unless the people had some familiarity with weapons of war. The Constitution secures the right of the people to keep and bear arms. No doubt, a citizen who keeps a gun or pistol under judicious precautions practises in safe places the use of it, and in due time teaches his sons to do the same, exercises his individual right. No doubt a person whose residence or duties involve peculiar peril may keep a pistol for prudent self-defence...."

"...As to guns and pistols, then the citizen who practises with them is in the exercise of a constitutional right; and to mulct him for any unfortunate consequences, proof is needed that he was careless. He must exercise due care to avoid doing mischief. Sic utere tuo ut alienum non loedas--use your gun so as not to hurt another man--is a time honored maxim."

- Benjamin Vaughan Abbott, Judge and Jury: A Popular Explanation of Leading Topics in the Law of the Land. NEW YORK HARPER & BROTHERS, FRANKLIN SQUARE [1880](Mr. Abbott graduated from New York University in 1850, and Harvard Law School in 1851. He was the secretary of the New York Code Commission, which drew up the state's penal code in 1864. He also served on a commission created to revise the statutes of the United States from 1870-1872).

Since: Aug 11

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#107744
May 20, 2013
 

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Ahomana wrote:
You are all wrong! Communism has never existed as a government anywhere in the world...it is socialism or the branches of it but never communism....ever...
This is like seeing the media idiots call crackers, hackers or vise a verse.
I wonder how this misinformation actually starts, it is like the Emperor and his new clothes story?
FYI....Crackers aren't hackers and Communism has never existed as a government anywhere on the Blue Planet! OK!~
I know you are right on this issue that true Communism has never existed just in name.

Since: Aug 11

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#107745
May 20, 2013
 
spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, over the decades, governments have used the "Communist" name to obtained power all over the globe!
spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
You got your history seriously bungled old chap; The Communist Party of the Soviet Union did not emerge until the end of the Bolsheviks and the bloody civil war in 1922. The Bolsheviks orchestrated the October Revolution which overthrew the Provisional Government, thus transferring all governing power to the workers' councils (Russian: soviets). Immediately thereafter, the Bolsheviks founded the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic - the world's first constitutionally socialist state. After a bloody civil war, at the end of 1922 the Bolsheviks emerged victorious and unified territories of the former Russian Empire into the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). I seriously doubt that your man Lincoln had anything to do with it :-)
here is what you said in post 107726 that communism emerge at the end of the Bolsheviks and the bloody civil war in 1922.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107747
May 20, 2013
 

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spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, over the decades, governments have used the "Communist" name to obtained power all over the globe!
of course this is right, they are the people that sold us on a red and white Santa clause just to sell a product...and it still embedded in most of our Christmas tradition...IT is a certainty that government and business will bastardise anything to sell a product...even misleading our systems of education to include lies and propaganda like communism exists in some countries (that have a want to make ogre's out of) when it suits their purpose.

Since: Dec 10

Perth, Australia

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#107748
May 20, 2013
 

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Anonymous of Indy wrote:
<quoted text>I know you are right on this issue that true Communism has never existed just in name.
I am not right because you say I am right, I am right because history says so.
spocko

Oakland, CA

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#107749
May 20, 2013
 
Anonymous of Indy wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
here is what you said in post 107726 that communism emerge at the end of the Bolsheviks and the bloody civil war in 1922.
Okay, it's called history ...

Since: Nov 08

South Florida

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#107750
May 20, 2013
 

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It really isn't as cerebral as someqqople are making this out to be. There will always be some people who romanticize wiyh guns. No, nothing to do with fear that the Feds are coming or even so much about protection. They are just fixated with their gun hobby.
Some are ex-military and some wish they were, and still others have responsible and respectful intentions and practices with their firearms.
But the problem is with the loons.
The ones who think this is just a Dems vs Repub thing.
The ones who think this is a Conservative versus Progressive thing.
The ones who don't realize that Dems and Liberals have guns too.
The ones who will listen to a proposal for gun control that grandfather's all weapons legally purchased, that are being considered for restrictions - meaning those folks can keep theirs - and still scream that somebody is coming to take their guns anyway!

These people aren't running scared from anything. These people are simply in a romance with their guns. They give them to 5 year olds for their birthdays. Target practice is no longer satisfying at the gun range. Shooting deer and foul is no longer satisfying. They tell story after story and talk all manners of some eminant war right here in America between all of them and the rest of the country, with guns in hand......LOONS!!!!!
This is who the NRA supports........LOONS!!!!!
These are the same folks who think it is perfectly fine for other LOONS to be able to purchase any firearm they want at a gun show without even giving so much as their name - much less a background check!!!
These people are making responsible gun owners look really bad and weak minds are feeding into this crap!!!

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