Toyota promises plug-in hybrid vehicle by 2010

[Consumption Junction]

James wrote:

<quoted text>
It's great to be cutting back on fossil fuels and this will be a seque to doing so. In the meantime, you and I, and everyone else, need to look at the things we consume that are made because of fossil fuels. We need to look at the real impact that cutting out fossil fuels will have on our lifestyles. We need to look at what industries will have to re-tool, etc. and we, as a nation, should have a comprehensive plan on how to identify and overcome the inevitable problems that we will have.
France went with nuclear in 1973 when OPEC drastically increased their prices. While we were watching Jimmy Carter in his sweater, during his fireside chats about thermostat control and driving 55...France was getting clean energy and doing something about their dependence.
Gee...I wonder why they could do it and we still can't

Come on, James. Have you forgotten where you live? You cannot expect your American brethren to give up their V8 engines, big boats, tv's, computers, etc. This country is/was built on consumption. Even at today's gas prices, way too many people still drive to work alone. However, I have noticed a few more scooters and bicycles on the road.

[John]

bus only lanes wrote:

John, I agree with you, but most of the people complaining about our oil use are complaining about the pollution it causes and the CO2 it puts into tha atmosphere. Coal fired power plants are WORSE.

Very true. But if everyone had electric cars, pollution would still be a lot less.
Then start doing something about the coal power plants.
Also, we wouldn't be dependent on foreign oil. Big Oil companies would be in serious financial trouble too, Along with the Middle East.

[goon]

This is Conelrad wrote:

<quoted text>
OK. Let's bet some money on this. You really think that the +$30,000 Chevy Volt will be released for sale BEFORE the Toyota Prius Plug-in model? Well pony up 'cause that's a bet I'll take!
GM has been puttering around with their Saturn Aura Greenline Hybrid model since 2007. There are like 10 of them on the roads. They virtually halted production for almost a year after the first few were released because of supply problems with Cobasys, their financially faltering battery supplier. Even now, with the new 2009 MY Aura/Malibu hybrids, the supply is almost invisible -- for such a relatively simple, basic 'mild-hybrid' sedan!
If GM can't even do this, I really doubt their abilities on the full-hybrid, plug-in Volt, or, frankly, getting the US market any other fuel saving models in the near future.(Their current claim to fame is the Chevy Aveo, built in Korea by their Daewoo division - and it only gets a lousy 34 mpg!)
So yeah, I don't have all that much faith in the management of General Motors. And as for Ford? Ha! Been there, done nothing.(Except for those nice efficient diesels they sell in the UK/Europe, that they still won't market here....).

Funny, you can ad some batteries to a current model Prius and make it a plug in hybrid. People were doing this in San fran a while back and toyota said it wasn't interested at the time.

[bus only lanes]

Well James, there are many factors -- first being the vast size of the United States. Second being that many of the countries who can easily switch to some other energy source have an infrastructure was put in place long before there WERE automobiles.

Much of the US infrastructure was designed around the automobile, on the premise of cheap abundant fuel.

So, effectively switching to some other fuel source is impossible, as nothing provides the energy yield or affordability of oil. Simply using less energy is not possible either, because it requires a redesign of the economy and infrastructure, removal of whats already in place in many cases, and essentially starting over. The costs of doing that are far beyond what our resources will allow. For the average American citizen, it would mean getting a new job, moving to a city, changing their whole life around, and having to make dramatic reductions in their standard of living. Except that the cities don't have the infrastructure to support the other 50% of the population who doesn't live there.

[NewPatriot]

Fonzie Scheme wrote:

The prius is boring. Toyota does boring fairly well. The japs must think that stretched out toasters with wheels are exciting.
The Chevy Volt actually looks like a cool car to drive. GM will sell every one of them.
It takes Americans to make things cool.

You've never driven a BMW M5, a Mercedes AMG-series, or an Acura NSX, have you?

With the possible exception of the Vette or the upcoming '09 Cadillac CTS-V, American car companies have nothing on the best that the Germans or Japs have been churning out.

Americans underestimate foreign leadership in the American car market at their own peril.

[NewPatriot]

More on topic, I should have added that the Tesla is pretty damn cool. Chalk up one for American ingenuity.

http://www.teslamotors.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors

[Guy]

goon wrote:

<quoted text>Funny, you can ad some batteries to a current model Prius and make it a plug in hybrid. People were doing this in San fran a while back and toyota said it wasn't interested at the time.

The good thing about the electric hybrid platform is that you can ad many alternate fuel sources to it to augment its plug in mode... gasoline, diesel, ethanol, hydrogen, solar, fuel cells, etc.

[Fonzie Scheme]

John wrote:

<quoted text>
Lets, see, they say it will be out in 2010, so that means about 2011 with setbacks.
I saw that it will cost about $60k also, tack on the dealership price up mark since its new, so about $70k.
For that much I would get a BMW 6 series or an M3.

That's okay. I'll still have one, and it will still be the coolest ride around.

[Fonzie Scheme]

NewPatriot wrote:

<quoted text>
You've never driven a BMW M5, a Mercedes AMG-series, or an Acura NSX, have you?
With the possible exception of the Vette or the upcoming '09 Cadillac CTS-V, American car companies have nothing on the best that the Germans or Japs have been churning out.
Americans underestimate foreign leadership in the American car market at their own peril.

Just the M5. The rest of your post is meaningless.

[James]

bus only lanes wrote:

Well James, there are many factors -- first being the vast size of the United States. Second being that many of the countries who can easily switch to some other energy source have an infrastructure was put in place long before there WERE automobiles.
Much of the US infrastructure was designed around the automobile, on the premise of cheap abundant fuel.
So, effectively switching to some other fuel source is impossible, as nothing provides the energy yield or affordability of oil. Simply using less energy is not possible either, because it requires a redesign of the economy and infrastructure, removal of whats already in place in many cases, and essentially starting over. The costs of doing that are far beyond what our resources will allow. For the average American citizen, it would mean getting a new job, moving to a city, changing their whole life around, and having to make dramatic reductions in their standard of living. Except that the cities don't have the infrastructure to support the other 50% of the population who doesn't live there.

I agree. The problem I see, is that, our Congressional inaction will result in China, Cuba, Venezuala, etc., drilling in places where we are forbidden to go. They will extract the oil at a huge environmental cost to those places. We at least, have the technology and willingness to protect the environment while getting the oil.
As it is, our own EPA studies show that we have more of a chance of having a spill from oil tankers bringing oil to us, than we do from drilling for it.
That said, we won't be able to, prices will go up tremendously, and the economy and infratstructure will be devastated.
We could develop a plan to become independent and utilize future planning concepts to establish more core zones for populations and industries where we work.
I'm talking about the long haul but unfortunately, NOTHING will be done by our politicians until it is too late.
I see nothing but hot air coming out of D.C. and we can't harness that.

[bus only lanes]

We saw this coming in 1973. Jimmy Carter tried to explain it again in 1979. Here we are 30 years later, the flames are starting to burn our behinds, and we're looking for a fire extinguisher we don't have that we can't get that that they warned us we would need nearly 40 years ago.

We are an oil based society with an oil based economy, living in an oil powered infrastructure.

We can't survive without it any more than the human body can survive without water.

No amout of money, research, wishing, or innovation can save us at this point. Only one thing can, and that's a lot more oil.

[goon]

good luck getting more oil. We are at peak and by definition the supply can only hold for a while then go down forever.

[bus only lanes]

Well, Goon... Then it looks like we're doomed, doesn't it? Beating each other up in the bread lines over a stale crust of 3 day old bread?

Alternative fuels, despite billions of dollars and decades of research, can't even scratch the surface. So that means we need oil. Not want, but NEED.

[Gary]

bus only lanes wrote:

Well, Goon... Then it looks like we're doomed, doesn't it? Beating each other up in the bread lines over a stale crust of 3 day old bread?
Alternative fuels, despite billions of dollars and decades of research, can't even scratch the surface. So that means we need oil. Not want, but NEED.

We can do a program called Nukes or oil. Give us your oil or we'll give you a nuke. Hell, its worth a shot since we're all doomed anyway.

[Lunatic Fringe]

The first thing we need to give up is the "silver bullet" mentality - one size fits all. We tried that with DDT and CFCs and look where it got us: overuse created big problems. This discussion has pointed out clearly that any particular solution doesn't meet the needs of everyone. A viable future will consist of a suite of integrated solutions: conservation, alternative fuels, hybrids, renewable power sources, mass transportation, etc. We just have to convince the politicians and special interests to work together for the COMMON good - no mean task!

[Radon]

Lunatic Fringe wrote:

The first thing we need to give up is the "silver bullet" mentality - one size fits all. We tried that with DDT and CFCs and look where it got us: overuse created big problems. This discussion has pointed out clearly that any particular solution doesn't meet the needs of everyone. A viable future will consist of a suite of integrated solutions: conservation, alternative fuels, hybrids, renewable power sources, mass transportation, etc. We just have to convince the politicians and special interests to work together for the COMMON good - no mean task!

Iran will have nukes and delivery in a few years, as will Pakistan, and N. Korea. China already does and Russia isn't as friendly as we think.
I don't think the world has to worry about fuel in the future.
The survivors can just throw some food on a rock and it will cook in a few seconds.

[goon]

bus only lanes wrote:

Well, Goon... Then it looks like we're doomed, doesn't it? Beating each other up in the bread lines over a stale crust of 3 day old bread?
Alternative fuels, despite billions of dollars and decades of research, can't even scratch the surface. So that means we need oil. Not want, but NEED.

People in Hell want ice water too. Building a whole society based on cheap oil may not have been the brightest thing to do in retrospect

[Lunatic Fringe]

Radon wrote:

<quoted text>
Iran will have nukes and delivery in a few years, as will Pakistan, and N. Korea. China already does and Russia isn't as friendly as we think.
I don't think the world has to worry about fuel in the future.
The survivors can just throw some food on a rock and it will cook in a few seconds.

Perhaps I'm naive ( I prefer to think I'm hopeful). If my outlook was that grim, I'd have to get a gallon of 5 buck gas, fill my lawnmower, close the garage door and start it up.(Couldn't use my hybrid - it probably doesn't produce enough carbon monoxide to do the job.)

Wisecracks aside, if humanity doesn't start using the brains God gave us and begin acting more rationally - working towards peace and cooperation, instead of war and competition - your scenario may be valid.

I believe there is more that unites us than divides us, but a powerful minority, abetted by a compliant media, has a vested, selfish interest in setting us against one another.

As I implied in the previous post, there are many concerned, thoughtful, innovative, and dedicated people in the world who are working to resolve global problems - we need better (less vain and greedy) leadership.

.

[Wavy Gravy]

Lunatic Fringe wrote:

<quoted text>
Perhaps I'm naive ( I prefer to think I'm hopeful). If my outlook was that grim, I'd have to get a gallon of 5 buck gas, fill my lawnmower, close the garage door and start it up.(Couldn't use my hybrid - it probably doesn't produce enough carbon monoxide to do the job.)
Wisecracks aside, if humanity doesn't start using the brains God gave us and begin acting more rationally - working towards peace and cooperation, instead of war and competition - your scenario may be valid.
I believe there is more that unites us than divides us, but a powerful minority, abetted by a compliant media, has a vested, selfish interest in setting us against one another.
As I implied in the previous post, there are many concerned, thoughtful, innovative, and dedicated people in the world who are working to resolve global problems - we need better (less vain and greedy) leadership.
.

I know you're out there...

[Dissident Ian]

Patrick wrote:

<quoted text>
So do you recommend we let the corporations take back all the unions have gained for workers, then when we no longer have paid vacations or holidays, no 401k benefits (remember when there were actual defined benefit pension plans???), no health care -- then we start over with people being shot by Pinkerton goons hired by CEOs to claw our way back to where we are now? That's not good enough for me, and it ain't good enough for my kids.

I suggest you explain what good a Union has done for any American in the last 30 years. Excluding the Union Goons that go infiltrate the workforce and intimidate and decieve people into joining. Not only are foreign automakers providing more stable work for Americans with non-union workers they are providing safer higher quality vehicles. The days of the Pinkertons soaking people are long gone. The only place they exist are in history books. We live in now. Just because unions did some good in the past does not give them livberty to destroy American Industry.