Creationism, a differing view

Feb 6, 2014 Full story: The Times 20

This is in reference to the articles in the Feb. 2 paper concerning science, religion and classrooms.

Full Story
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#1 Feb 7, 2014
Charlotte Hinson wrote:
I am a fifth-grade teacher, and am appalled at how both of these authors’ viewpoints share a similar view of teaching evolution
I am appalled you are a teacher.
Ms Hinson wrote:
why did you not present an opposing viewpoint?
Because there is no scientific opposition.
Ms Hinson wrote:
both authors refer to creationism as theory and evolution as fact. That is strictly opinion.
Wrong. Evolution is a fact and scientific theory. Creationism isn't even a theory, it's religion.
Ms Hinson wrote:
kids are disturbed when they hear or read that we evolved from apes.
As they are disturbed when they find Santa does not exist. But since WE are apes I'm not sure why anyone should be disturbed by being the offspring of their parents. Perhaps if someone were to explain biology to them PROPERLY.
Ms Hinson wrote:
we should address it, of course within our First Amendment rights and responsibilities, always saying,“Here is what I believe.”
WRONG. Your First Amendment Rights are on pause the moment you are a paid agent of the Government, such as a teacher in a public school. Saying what YOU believe is tantamount to Government endorsement of said beliefs, and violates THEIR First Amendment rights. As a teacher it is ILLEGAL for you to do so. If you are teaching religion then ALL religions should be taught EQUALLY, or not at all. If you are teaching SCIENCE then science is ALL you should be teaching.
Ms Hinson wrote:
they always, always say,“I didn’t come from an animal. God created me in a unique way; I matter more than an animal; I’m special.”
Perhaps God created them through evolution? Only literalistic creationism requires a rejection of evolution. But as evolution makes NO theological claims whatsoever, same as EVERY science, it is a lie to portray biology as atheism. Evolution is no more atheistic than gravity.
Ms Hinson wrote:
As an educator, it is upsetting reading this article suggesting that we teach evolution as fact and “repeal” creationism.
Then you are not suited to educate. You are not a preacher. You are a teacher. As such you should teach. The arguments for creationism in opposition of evolution are lies, period. So to present them as somehow equal to science is not only a violation of the First Amendment but also anti-science. Promoting anti-science is the OPPOSITE of teaching. If preaching is what you prefer then you are free to take that career path instead, and everyone in the entire country is free to go and watch you preach. Just NOT in public schools.
Ms Hinson wrote:
My job is to present both, tell what I personally believe
It is obvious you have misunderstood your job description.

(continued)
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#2 Feb 7, 2014
(continued from above)
Ms Hinson wrote:
they always, always ASK, and let them decide
They may ask, but the validity of science is NOT decided by school kids. It is decided by SCIENTISTS. Kids are free to believe what they wish, and no-one can prevent them rejecting any science education they receive for the sake of religious beliefs. But if they want to decide on the validity of science, they first have to LEARN science, become scientists, and DEMONSTRATE scientific concepts are right or wrong via the scientific method.

In the meantime, teachers teaching science are supposed to teach what the current scientific consensus is, and why it is that way. If you want your students to overturn current consensus and replace current science with a newer even better science, ironically you are preventing them from ever being able to do that.
Ms Hinson wrote:
but I will never ever teach what goes against so many of these children’s beliefs, morals and what their parents have worked so hard to instill in their hearts.
Then get a job at a private religious school. Until then you are not teaching. You are promoting anti-science. You are violating the First Amendment of the US Constitution. And you are violating religious freedom.
Ms Hinson wrote:
God made science
Maybe, but your opinion is not scientific. You are free to present a scientific case if you have one. You also place limits on the Almighty by claiming it is at odds with evolution. That is your choice, but you are NOT allowed to push those same limits onto your students.
Ms Hinson wrote:
and unlike many adults, these kids KNOW that.
No they DON'T know that. They DON'T know things, which is why we send them to schools to TEACH them. Unfortunately your interest is not to teach, but to preach.
Ms Hinson wrote:
they know nothing in science is “accidental;” they’re wiser than that.
If that's the case then why do they fall for the lie that evolution is all "accident"? Natural selection is not random. Chemistry is not random. However non-random does NOT always necessitate intelligence - think of apples never "randomly" falling up from a tree. Or sideways. Of course if you knew ANYTHING about science you would know this.

You're not just unqualified to teach science. You're unqualified to teach, period. Not only do you put your school at risk of expensive lawsuits for your downright illegal practices, you do a GRAVE disservice to education in general and science education in particular. But most important, you are trampling on the religious freedom of all kids who have the misfortune to have you as a "teacher".

Preach in private schools or in church. Or even out on a street corner.

PUBLIC schools are for TEACHING, not preaching. Just because your education was ruined doesn't mean you should have the opportunity to do that to hundreds of OTHER people's kids.
LCAlli

Greenfield, MO

#3 Feb 7, 2014
I'm a christian. So I believe in creationism, but I also partially believe in evolution, but I don't see how a dinosaur can turn into a fish.
The Dude

Yeovil, UK

#4 Feb 7, 2014
LCAlli wrote:
I'm a christian. So I believe in creationism, but I also partially believe in evolution, but I don't see how a dinosaur can turn into a fish.
Me neither, since fish had already been around for a long time.

But one question - can millimeters ever become light years?

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#5 Feb 7, 2014
Children should be taught David Hilbert's vision of a unified science. That should make those religiously devoted evolutionists really scream.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#6 Feb 7, 2014
Ah shaddap Shoob, ya reality-denying fruitcake. When are you going to learn something about biology for once? We refuted you years ago, and still waiting for you to step up to the starting block.

Take your time.

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#7 Feb 7, 2014
I have never accused evolutionists of being reality-deniers. More exactly, evolutionists are throwbacks to the medieval age and trumpeteers of the belief that the simplest paradigms are the only acceptable answer to complex questions.

True science acknowledges a much higher standard than what Occam could have imagined in the medieval age. In fact, even ordinary 19th century thinking surpasses Occam's primitive principle. An example of a higher principle would be, as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has said in the character of Sherlock Holmes, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

As for the greatest principle, indisputably, Hilbert's program for the axiomatization of physics is the highest and purest form of science ever conceptualized by the human mind.

Personally, I confess to being thrilled by the Hilbert atlas of all logically consistent universes. But there are even greater thoughts.

"God is the greatest being that could exist without contradiction with maximally infinite divine attributes." - Shubee

"All of science is uncertain and subject to revision. The glory of science is to imagine more than we can prove." - Freeman Dyson.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

#8 Feb 9, 2014
Shubee wrote:
Blah blah blah Hilbert blah blah blah blah blah blah Hilbert blah blah blah blah.
You need to start singing from a new song sheet Shoobie. Why not try the reality aria for a change.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#9 Feb 10, 2014
Shubee wrote:
I have never accused evolutionists of being reality-deniers. More exactly, evolutionists are throwbacks to the medieval age and trumpeteers of the belief that the simplest paradigms are the only acceptable answer to complex questions.
And yet here you are promoting Goddidit with magic.

Still waiting for you to present a rational refutation and actually address our posts. Take your time Shoob.

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#10 Mar 1, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
And yet here you are promoting Goddidit with magic.
Still waiting for you to present a rational refutation and actually address our posts. Take your time Shoob.
Goddidit with magic trumps Stephen Hawking's assertion that everything came into existence by itself. However, I do not dispute Stephen Hawking's assertion that a highly ordered reality came into existence from nothing. I take it as an axiom.
FASTWYND

Calhoun, GA

#11 Mar 1, 2014
Zog Has-fallen wrote:
<quoted text> Goddidit with magic trumps Stephen Hawking's assertion that everything came into existence by itself. However, I do not dispute Stephen Hawking's assertion that a highly ordered reality came into existence from nothing. I take it as an axiom.
Are UFO's real?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#12 Mar 1, 2014
FASTWYND wrote:
<quoted text>Are UFO's real?
Yes.

There ARE objects that appeared to fly that have not yet been identified.

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#13 Mar 1, 2014
FASTWYND wrote:
Are UFO's real?
I certainly believe that there are things that appear to fly, which have not been identified.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#14 Mar 2, 2014
Zog Has-fallen wrote:
<quoted text> I certainly believe that there are things that appear to fly, which have not been identified.
It is said that imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery....
PsssT

Jackson, MO

#15 Mar 2, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
And yet here you are promoting Goddidit with magic.
Hello Dude .. I'm all about learning (since i realized i'm not knowitall afterall)
and I do appreciate the opposing views .. well, as long as 'they' are not imposing.

All too often you get a room of Christians together and all they do is snipe
at one another with ... opposing views.

I'm just as interested though in agnostic and atheistic views. I learn quite
a bit and it makes me dig deeper to gain an understanding that I'm HOLY
comfortable with. Thanks & Peace :)

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#16 Mar 2, 2014
Kong_ wrote:
It is said that imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery....
That statement is true. However, in this case you stole the words out of my mouth. Do you have any witty statements about theft or about answering questions not addressed to you?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#17 Mar 2, 2014
Zog Has-fallen wrote:
<quoted text>That statement is true. However, in this case you stole the words out of my mouth. Do you have any witty statements about theft or about answering questions not addressed to you?
Do YOU not note that this is an "OPEN FORUM", and I will respond to anyone I choose?

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#18 Mar 2, 2014
OK, you don't have any witty statements about theft or about answering questions not addressed to you right now but you can work on it.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#19 Mar 2, 2014
Zog Has-fallen wrote:
OK, you don't have any witty statements about theft or about answering questions not addressed to you right now but you can work on it.
I *DID* respond to answering questions not addressed to me. Apparently you fail to realize that this is an OPEN FORUM. As such, anyone may respond to any post, regardless who it was addressed to.

And I challenge you to prosecute me for "theft", you blinding idiot.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#20 Mar 3, 2014
Zog Has-fallen wrote:
<quoted text> Goddidit with magic trumps Stephen Hawking's assertion that everything came into existence by itself. However, I do not dispute Stephen Hawking's assertion that a highly ordered reality came into existence from nothing. I take it as an axiom.
Still don't care Shoob.
PsssT wrote:
Hello Dude .. I'm all about learning (since i realized i'm not knowitall afterall)
and I do appreciate the opposing views .. well, as long as 'they' are not imposing.

All too often you get a room of Christians together and all they do is snipe
at one another with ... opposing views.
I've noticed. Fundies even fight each other even when they share the same religion, quibbling over petty differences of interpretations of Biblical passages even after they've already been translated into English. The irony being they no longer have access to the original document and couldn't read it even if they did, so in reality they have no idea what the "correct" interpretation should be.
PsssT wrote:
I'm just as interested though in agnostic and atheistic views. I learn quite
a bit and it makes me dig deeper to gain an understanding that I'm HOLY
comfortable with. Thanks & Peace :)
This forum however isn't a theology or philosophy forum. Wanna be a theist? Go ahead and enjoy. Deist? Enjoy. Agnostic? Enjoy. Atheist? Enjoy. Doesn't matter. On these threads what matters is science, which works the same way for everyone no matter what personal theological/philosophical stances they have, or who they vote for.

Science has long been settled on the matter - creationism is pseudo-science and evolution is correct. As for the rest, atheist, agnostic, theist? It's whatever personally works for you.(shrug)

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