Our recommendation: Springboro voters...

Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 31934 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24136 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
A test is indicative of how much you have learned, that is why they give them in the military to discover aptitude and how much you are capable of learning.
They have licensing exams for just about all professions, if you have not mastered 9th grade math your future will be limited indeed.
While people are very different, the taxpayers fund an education for each and every child. For you to abrogate your responsibility to educate that child lessens you as a professional educator. Your job is to educate and you know that when 80% of an entire class is failing the test something is grossly wrong. When the bar needs to be at 42% to pass a 9th grade math test when you are in the second semester of your 10th grade year, you know you have a problem.
Blaming it on the kids is a cheap cop out.
Doug. I'm not a professional educator. I'm not a teacher. I do not work for this or any other school district charter or college. I am much like you professionally but personally and politically we differ greatly. I don't believe in blaming anyone when my children fail to "succeed". I work with them. I do not teach them to hold others accountable when we as a family aren't putting in the time and effort necessary to reach our own goals. My children practice their instruments and sports outside of school practices. To get better to achieve more. If you think the state tests set the bar too low why aren't you writing a letter to Kasich instead of spending time trying polarize this issue when the Springboro teachers and BOE are only doing what they with what they've been given?
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24137 Apr 11, 2013
transparency wrote:
<quoted text>
How many Springboro students graduate and go on to college? Is it just 20%? Do 80% of Springboro graduates live in poverty because they are so undereducated they can't support themselves? That's what your "data" supports.
Doug - whet say you sir?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24138 Apr 11, 2013
transparency wrote:
<quoted text>
Was this the athletic directors job? To police the boosters? Why weren't the booster board members demanding checks and balances?
According to the way Mr. Holtrey explained it to me in 2009, the boosters just didn't raise enough money to even have to file a tax return. This is when I queried him on where were the boosters in regards to fundraising to offset the cost of athletics. I have been to a few of those casino nights, Mr. Holtrey's claim of not raising enough money did not seem to ring cleanly.

Those board members are and were business people who knew the right way from the wrong way of doing business. Trust, but verify, and keep immaculate records.

Our children, our parents, and our volunteers were not protected by the people they entrusted with their welfare.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24139 Apr 11, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Doug. I'm not a professional educator. I'm not a teacher. I do not work for this or any other school district charter or college. I am much like you professionally but personally and politically we differ greatly. I don't believe in blaming anyone when my children fail to "succeed". I work with them. I do not teach them to hold others accountable when we as a family aren't putting in the time and effort necessary to reach our own goals. My children practice their instruments and sports outside of school practices. To get better to achieve more. If you think the state tests set the bar too low why aren't you writing a letter to Kasich instead of spending time trying polarize this issue when the Springboro teachers and BOE are only doing what they with what they've been given?
You are a marvelous person, but that does not relieve our professional educators of their duties to educate our children.

We do not need to worry about the state tests, the bar is so low we could keep the kids up partying for three days and nights and still pass them.

I promote and believe in a higher level of achievement given our children, our parents, our teachers, our facilities, and our resources. There is zero reason to not dramatically raise the bar for all involved to ensure that each child that leaves this school system has at least a C level education.

To demand less given the resources we command is criminal neglect of our community's children.

We defraud the taxpayer who funds the system, and we cheat the child who depends on the system.

Demand better, we can make a difference.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24140 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
According to the way Mr. Holtrey explained it to me in 2009, the boosters just didn't raise enough money to even have to file a tax return. This is when I queried him on where were the boosters in regards to fundraising to offset the cost of athletics. I have been to a few of those casino nights, Mr. Holtrey's claim of not raising enough money did not seem to ring cleanly.
Those board members are and were business people who knew the right way from the wrong way of doing business. Trust, but verify, and keep immaculate records.
Our children, our parents, and our volunteers were not protected by the people they entrusted with their welfare.
I agree this was a messed up situation and a lot of people were taken advantage of. But you seem to suggest Mr Holtrey somehow failed here and I don't understand why you're pointing any finger of blame toward him. While you may not agree with his teaching or coaching style that's not enough reason to accuse him of being a part of this scheme to steal and lie.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24141 Apr 11, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Doug - whet say you sir?
I have no idea, but I do know that 80% of the kids who took last years Ohio Achievement Assessment test failed according to the grading scale Mr. Malone honed for the PSEO.

How shall we look those children in the eye and tell them it doesn't matter?

2000 plus children in this district are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24142 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
You are a marvelous person, but that does not relieve our professional educators of their duties to educate our children.
We do not need to worry about the state tests, the bar is so low we could keep the kids up partying for three days and nights and still pass them.
I promote and believe in a higher level of achievement given our children, our parents, our teachers, our facilities, and our resources. There is zero reason to not dramatically raise the bar for all involved to ensure that each child that leaves this school system has at least a C level education.
To demand less given the resources we command is criminal neglect of our community's children.
We defraud the taxpayer who funds the system, and we cheat the child who depends on the system.
Demand better, we can make a difference.
I do demand better which is why I'm continuing this banter with you. Criminal neglect? Whoa you are throwing some strong accusations around on here now. Are you suggesting your children's teachers are criminally neglecting your children? Have you contacted social services or the police? If I felt a situation were dire enough that I was going to publicly accuse someone of criminally neglecting a child I would most certainly ensure the appropriate law enforcement folks were notified. And if you claim the Springboro schools and the teachers are committing fraud against every property value in the District where is your lawsuit and why haven't the auditors come to the same conclusions you have?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24143 Apr 11, 2013
judy wrote:
<quoted text>
It sounds like your parents didn't blame teachers for life's woes so I wonder where you picked that up? Sounds like you think parents need to instill the ethic of hard work. So stop blaming society's problems on the teachers. There are many teachers who are also parents. Why are you so hostile and disrespectful of teachers? Especially if you understand your success in life is due to your parents and your own hard work? Levy the responsibility of values and work ethic on the kids and parents and not on the teachers. They can only do so much. Parents, students and teachers need to support one another with mutual respect. The attitude you have towards education is warped and downright rude. Tell the truth. It's not about test scores or the kids. You could care less. You're antitax. Bottom line. Is that something you got from your parents too?
Exactly where have I been hostile?

I blame teachers who stand up and cheer when school officials exalt over children scoring PROFICIENT on achievement test.'These teachers have become complicit in an Orwellian system which undermines the drive for actual achievement. To these teachers PROFICIENT means success, when in fact they know it means failure.

As I have consistently stated, some teachers are good, some bad, and some mediocre. They populate their profession in the same way other professions are populated. Those who knowingly cheer failure I classify in the latter categories.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24144 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no idea, but I do know that 80% of the kids who took last years Ohio Achievement Assessment test failed according to the grading scale Mr. Malone honed for the PSEO.
How shall we look those children in the eye and tell them it doesn't matter?
2000 plus children in this district are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.
How are 2000 kids not getting g an education? Are they going to school? Do they need additional help they are not receiving at home? Who is going to pay for above and beyond help? If each child learns at a different pace is it my job to pay more taxes so your child can get more obstruction? If the other 5500 students in the District aren't in the same situation does that mean they are succeeding? What can we do to help the 2000 kids you claim can't keep up with the other 5500?
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24145 Apr 11, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
I do demand better which is why I'm continuing this banter with you. Criminal neglect? Whoa you are throwing some strong accusations around on here now. Are you suggesting your children's teachers are criminally neglecting your children? Have you contacted social services or the police? If I felt a situation were dire enough that I was going to publicly accuse someone of criminally neglecting a child I would most certainly ensure the appropriate law enforcement folks were notified. And if you claim the Springboro schools and the teachers are committing fraud against every property value in the District where is your lawsuit and why haven't the auditors come to the same conclusions you have?
2000 children in this district are not getting the education the taxpayers have funded.

And the best you can do is nonsense. Each year another class graduates and within its ranks are over a third that are not prepared academically to meet the world. When we fail here it has consequences for those who move out of our system and into a cold world.

We might not be able to save them all, but I refuse to believe that we can not do better than a third.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24146 Apr 11, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree this was a messed up situation and a lot of people were taken advantage of. But you seem to suggest Mr Holtrey somehow failed here and I don't understand why you're pointing any finger of blame toward him. While you may not agree with his teaching or coaching style that's not enough reason to accuse him of being a part of this scheme to steal and lie.
I am merely relaying my experiences and conversations with the man and how he chose to handle the explanations. Mr Holtrey knew they were not filing tax returns, just as he knew how much Casino Night took in each year.

This was a man who was intimately involved in the athletic program in a small town.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24147 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly where have I been hostile?
I blame teachers who stand up and cheer when school officials exalt over children scoring PROFICIENT on achievement test.'These teachers have become complicit in an Orwellian system which undermines the drive for actual achievement. To these teachers PROFICIENT means success, when in fact they know it means failure.
As I have consistently stated, some teachers are good, some bad, and some mediocre. They populate their profession in the same way other professions are populated. Those who knowingly cheer failure I classify in the latter categories.
So you think every child should score at the apex of all standardized tests? You say there are good, bad, and mediocre teachers, correct? Does every child in the class of a good teacher score at or near the top? Does every child in the class of a bad teacher score below proficient? What is wrong with celebrating what probably is a success for those children who struggle to learn? Obviously you are aware that intellect and comprehension and even test anxiety vary as each person is unique. I think every teacher should strive to make an effort to provide every child with the best tools to succeed. And if you feel there are educators in Springboro who are not working with the best interests of the students at the forefront please contact the building principals and express your concerns. But to sit here day after day and post about how the teachers are failing the students? That is hostile and irresponsible.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24148 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
2000 children in this district are not getting the education the taxpayers have funded.
And the best you can do is nonsense. Each year another class graduates and within its ranks are over a third that are not prepared academically to meet the world. When we fail here it has consequences for those who move out of our system and into a cold world.
We might not be able to save them all, but I refuse to believe that we can not do better than a third.
A third of all Springboro graduates aren't prepared yo meet the world? Why? Because they have to take remedial classes in college? Or because they can't get accepted to college? I don't really understand what you're getting at here.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24149 Apr 11, 2013
not evil wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes genius but the other person referred to 2010 forward. Raises given around 2008 is not in dispute. Yes, look all the way through. If you scroll down to around page 18 or 19 of the document, which I just did, it shows the continuation of the data the poster is referring to. Didn't you wonder why the data stopped at 2011??? Of course you didn't because the data listed from 2011-2013 doesn't serve your argument.

Now which teachers need a raise because they are not paid enough?

The ones making over $30/hour or the ones making over $63/hour or the ones in between?

This is how much a teacher in the Springboro School District actually makes per hour.

$36,500 +$5110 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund /1350 hours =$30.82/hour
$48,000 +$6720 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$40.53/hour
$60,000 +$8400 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$50.66/hour
$75,000 +$10,500 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$63.33/hour

And this is what we receive in return after 8 years in our school system,
80% scoring a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment test.

8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
This is the low bar the state sets for every school in Ohio so even the urban schools can pass something.

State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)

.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F

D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D

C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C

B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B

A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A

With Mr. Malone's scale of actual grading, we see that 80% of the children who took the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math Test are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding?

Again, who is underpaid for the above results?
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24150 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
I am merely relaying my experiences and conversations with the man and how he chose to handle the explanations. Mr Holtrey knew they were not filing tax returns, just as he knew how much Casino Night took in each year.
This was a man who was intimately involved in the athletic program in a small town.
If you had questions about the Boosters did you ever ask anyone who was on the Booster Board? While Troy may have been passing along info he was told - and I'm assuming he was told the Boosters informed him of casino night revenues and tax filings based on what you're saying here - I doubt he was aware of the day -to -day monetary transactions. Each organization like every business has both revenues and expenses. How was he to know what those were?
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24151 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
not evil wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes genius but the other person referred to 2010 forward. Raises given around 2008 is not in dispute. Yes, look all the way through. If you scroll down to around page 18 or 19 of the document, which I just did, it shows the continuation of the data the poster is referring to. Didn't you wonder why the data stopped at 2011??? Of course you didn't because the data listed from 2011-2013 doesn't serve your argument.
Now which teachers need a raise because they are not paid enough?
The ones making over $30/hour or the ones making over $63/hour or the ones in between?
This is how much a teacher in the Springboro School District actually makes per hour.
$36,500 +$5110 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund /1350 hours =$30.82/hour
$48,000 +$6720 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$40.53/hour
$60,000 +$8400 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$50.66/hour
$75,000 +$10,500 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$63.33/hour
And this is what we receive in return after 8 years in our school system,
80% scoring a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment test.
8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
This is the low bar the state sets for every school in Ohio so even the urban schools can pass something.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
With Mr. Malone's scale of actual grading, we see that 80% of the children who took the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math Test are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding?
Again, who is underpaid for the above results?
Oh Doug. I guess we will have to do this again. You're still stuck on the hostility you said you didn't have. What level of education do you think you're funding? One on one tutoring for every child you claim is failing? What do you think you're paying for???
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24152 Apr 11, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Why was he inducted in the Springboro Athletic Hall of Fame five months before he was arrested?
Did you think he was a crook when he was inducted? In hindsight I'm sure he was inducted on what folks knew at the time. Now that he's been exposed for the disgrace that he is I hope he will be pulled as he obviously is not worthy of a hall of tamer.
figure it out

Cleveland, OH

#24153 Apr 12, 2013
transparency wrote:
<quoted text>
How many Springboro students graduate and go on to college? Is it just 20%? Do 80% of Springboro graduates live in poverty because they are so undereducated they can't support themselves? That's what your "data" supports.
First of all, the number one error is you're comparing American students with fellow American students. To gain a better perspective of Just Watching's position, you must compare American students to their international peers. Of course, the figures Just Watching has been posting don't represent Springboro schools alone. They represent virtually all of Ohio's and America's public school systems. The once proud American system of public education is being shattered and broken by the many liberal agendas. The libs have gotten really slick about disguising these agendas within the cirriculum so that few will dare to stand up and speak out against them.
Really just the facts

Springboro, OH

#24154 Apr 12, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't have anything attack the messenger.
No argument about anything, just nonsense.
Here is something to argue, a kid gets 42% correct on his Ohio Graduation Test, would you hire them?
Depends on the job. Does he/she need to know when Ohio became a state or Dante's Divine Comedy to run a crane or backhoe? Nope. And those jobs are very important.
Really just the facts

Springboro, OH

#24155 Apr 12, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
not evil wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes genius but the other person referred to 2010 forward. Raises given around 2008 is not in dispute. Yes, look all the way through. If you scroll down to around page 18 or 19 of the document, which I just did, it shows the continuation of the data the poster is referring to. Didn't you wonder why the data stopped at 2011??? Of course you didn't because the data listed from 2011-2013 doesn't serve your argument.
Now which teachers need a raise because they are not paid enough?
The ones making over $30/hour or the ones making over $63/hour or the ones in between?
This is how much a teacher in the Springboro School District actually makes per hour.
$36,500 +$5110 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund /1350 hours =$30.82/hour
$48,000 +$6720 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$40.53/hour
$60,000 +$8400 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$50.66/hour
$75,000 +$10,500 the taxpayer picks up for your retirement fund/1350 hours =$63.33/hour
And this is what we receive in return after 8 years in our school system,
80% scoring a D or F on the Ohio Achievement Assessment test.
8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
This is the low bar the state sets for every school in Ohio so even the urban schools can pass something.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
With Mr. Malone's scale of actual grading, we see that 80% of the children who took the Ohio Achievement Assessment Math Test are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding?
Again, who is underpaid for the above results?
As usual...just keep repeating the same things over and over, yelling louder and louder and maybe you wont have to say you were incorrect. You have said that teachers have been getting raises....clearly the data, provided by the schools themselves, shows that most - 92%, have not since 2010/2011. But again, that doesn't meet your argument, so you gloss over it and then deflect the argument to - well, how many of them are underpaid?

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