Combination Of Solar And On-Site Storage An Emerging Threat To Utilities

Sep 12, 2013 Full story: Forbes.com 22

Two more recent reports suggest that the electricity energy world may change very rapidly, and in ways that may look very different indeed.

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Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#1 Sep 12, 2013
"For their long-term economic health, the utilities are going to quickly need to learn to adapt to and harness this dynamic. Perhaps it means they need to think about financing and owning these systems. This implies a vastly different regulatory conversation than the one that has occurred over the past hundred years. Welcome to the brave new world."

The utility industry has enjoyed their regional monopolies for about a century. Now the homeowner or business owner can actually get their own solar PV system and make their own energy. The seven figure CEO salaries are only buying sorry excuses and blaming the increase in electric rates on those who would install solar PV. Instead, the utilities need to change their business model from generation and delivery to include storage and delivery.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#2 Sep 13, 2013
Who is going to pay for the storage? Currently with typical grid tied PV, everyone else BUT the PV owner pays for it. Doesn't sound fair to me.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#3 Sep 13, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
Who is going to pay for the storage? Currently with typical grid tied PV, everyone else BUT the PV owner pays for it. Doesn't sound fair to me.
How do you know? The utilities bundle many of their costs, either out of fear that the public will be able to track how "fair" their pricing is or out of laziness. Some of the utilities in Florida have done just that, put these costs into a monthly charge against each home on the grid. In some places it is about $40.00 a month, then there are the charges for each KWh of electricity or cubic meter of gas. When they decide to bundle the costs into each KWh of product they sell, they are screwing themselves. Change the business model or drown in their own rhetoric laden sh!t.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#4 Sep 13, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>How do you know? The utilities bundle many of their costs, either out of fear that the public will be able to track how "fair" their pricing is or out of laziness. Some of the utilities in Florida have done just that, put these costs into a monthly charge against each home on the grid. In some places it is about $40.00 a month, then there are the charges for each KWh of electricity or cubic meter of gas. When they decide to bundle the costs into each KWh of product they sell, they are screwing themselves. Change the business model or drown in their own rhetoric laden sh!t.
I know because the utilities have to pay retail for the power they are forced to by from the PVers.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#5 Sep 13, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> I know because the utilities have to pay retail for the power they are forced to by from the PVers.
Do they have to pay for a peak generation source of power, yes. When the utility is taking the extra power from the solar array during peak times of the day, do they pay the solar generator the peak rate? No. The people that install the solar on their homes and businesses also get to maintain the system, not the utility. The utility does get a peak source of power generation, they do not have to go to court and defend a project, file EIRs or build more power corridors. So, what is the cost savings that is NOT passed along to other ratepayers? Don't know do ya? It's all bundled into the KWh rate with other fees and taxes. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#6 Sep 14, 2013
All those costs are built into the wholesale price which is what the utilities should be paying. But the PVers get retail. This is theft.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#7 Sep 14, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
All those costs are built into the wholesale price which is what the utilities should be paying. But the PVers get retail. This is theft.
No,that's a lie. Wholesale is just that, mass production of an item to defray costs. All the other crap is added afterwards. So, you've got nothing about the tiered rates many utilities have in place? When the solar PV homeowner/generator and business owners are putting power back into the grid at peak rate periods do they get the higher rate for their energy credit? No, so the utility sells the power to the next door neighbor at the higher rate and they have done NOTHING to produce it. The electricity is supplied for them and the rate they pay is the standard low tier KWh rate, but they sell it at the higher peak demand rate. The utility gets paid plenty for the extra power generated by the business or homeowner. In SCE territory it can be as high as 31 cents per KWh. While the solar generation is credited at about 13 cents per KWh. Your circular B.S. Wikipedia based "logic" doesn't test well. The utilities have been gaming the ratepayer for decades and will continue to do so with so many willing puppets like YOURSELF available to carry their cause into the public opinion and DO NOTHING about the abuses this industry commits each and every day.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#8 Sep 14, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>No,that's a lie. Wholesale is just that, mass production of an item to defray costs. All the other crap is added afterwards.
Wholesale is what the utility pays the generator to cover ALL the generator's costs. The maintenance of the PVs and conversion equipment and all that stuff the the PV owner would pay should be covered under the wholesale price. All the system stuff that the PV user uses should be ADDED as system costs and make up part of the difference between wholesale and retail. But the PVer gets paid retail and then gets FREE use of all the system costs on top of that. He is a double thief.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#9 Sep 14, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> Wholesale is what the utility pays the generator to cover ALL the generator's costs. The maintenance of the PVs and conversion equipment and all that stuff the the PV owner would pay should be covered under the wholesale price. All the system stuff that the PV user uses should be ADDED as system costs and make up part of the difference between wholesale and retail. But the PVer gets paid retail and then gets FREE use of all the system costs on top of that. He is a double thief.
That is an uninformed lie. On you seem particularly fond of promoting. Who is it YOU work for? The utility industry has you by your raisin sized balls and yet you proudly sing their praises and call others who are looking for a different path thieves. WHO are YOU stealing from?

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#10 Sep 14, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>That is an uninformed lie. On you seem particularly fond of promoting. Who is it YOU work for? The utility industry has you by your raisin sized balls and yet you proudly sing their praises and call others who are looking for a different path thieves. WHO are YOU stealing from?
I've already answered the "who are you working for" dig but you are apparently too dishonest to remember it. I work for no-one. I m retired.
I only call those who take goods and services not their own "thieves", you know, people like you according to your own statements. Of course, maybe you AREN'T a thief but just a liar. As far as I am aware, I steal from no-one.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#11 Sep 14, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> I've already answered the "who are you working for" dig but you are apparently too dishonest to remember it. I work for no-one. I m retired.
I only call those who take goods and services not their own "thieves", you know, people like you according to your own statements. Of course, maybe you AREN'T a thief but just a liar. As far as I am aware, I steal from no-one.
Retired, yeah from reality. You would pontificate NOT generating one's own power to take responsibility for one's energy usage. YOU would call such a move theft, B.S. You won't even try to answer as to how much money the utilities make off of Solar PV generators when they charge everyone else a higher tiered rate with no required input or maintenance from them, but will "allow" the PV homeowner to get a credit at peak power times at the tier 1 KWh rate, NOT the tier 3 and 4 rates of 27 and 31 cents KWh. You're a fool, you have no idea of what you're talking about and never will.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#12 Sep 15, 2013
So you are now telling me for the first time that you get below the current TOD retail rates on the power you put into the grid but pay full retail for energy received? Are you now changing your story?
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#13 Sep 15, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
So you are now telling me for the first time that you get below the current TOD retail rates on the power you put into the grid but pay full retail for energy received? Are you now changing your story?
NO, A-hole it's called a tiered rate system,SCE, PG&E have implemented them. With SCE you get 29KWh a day at the 13 cents rate, tier 1. Then it goes up 16 cents, 27 cents and finally 31 cent per KWh. MY point is when net metering is in effect the solar PV homeowner gets a credit for 13 cents per KWh not the 16, 27 or 31 cents a KWh that is charged during the peak times of energy usage. YOU'RE the one who claims to have "researched" utility rates, so that's B.S. too, huh?

It used to be part of the net metering agreement that the homeowner/generator had to "relinquish" the additional power in the net energy account at the end of the year. So, the utility got energy sold at tiered prices for free. Now you get to carry over the extra energy generated from year to year as a credit at the lowest tier rate. Now we will have AB327 which looks like it will pass very soon. The Governor has promised to sign the bill. This will break out the "line and maintenance" charges into a monthly fee every homeowner will pay, solar or not. The CPUC will have to rule on the new law and create some kind of monthly rate, stated to be so far a $10.00 a month.$120.00 a year, at that rate I still make more power than that, if the PUC rules that it can come out of the net metering account, I still won't have a monthly bill to pay to the electric company.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#14 Sep 16, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>NO, A-hole it's called a tiered rate system,SCE, PG&E have implemented them. With SCE you get 29KWh a day at the 13 cents rate, tier 1. Then it goes up 16 cents, 27 cents and finally 31 cent per KWh. MY point is when net metering is in effect the solar PV homeowner gets a credit for 13 cents per KWh not the 16, 27 or 31 cents a KWh that is charged during the peak times of energy usage. YOU'RE the one who claims to have "researched" utility rates, so that's B.S. too, huh?
So you are saying, NO, I said it right, the PVer DOES get less than retail?
By the way, is that A-hole remark indicative of your true personality?

I said, of the ones I had researched... not that I had researched every one. And when I asked you about it a month ago you made a statement about getting the full retail rate. So were you lying then or are you lying now... or did you just misspeak?

So, to reiterate, those PVers who get the retail rate credited are thieves. Those that pay the actual wholesale rate are not... for that part of the transaction. If they pay retail for non-midday peak power they may still be thieves depending on how the rates are set.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#15 Sep 16, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> So you are saying, NO, I said it right, the PVer DOES get less than retail?
By the way, is that A-hole remark indicative of your true personality?
I said, of the ones I had researched... not that I had researched every one. And when I asked you about it a month ago you made a statement about getting the full retail rate. So were you lying then or are you lying now... or did you just misspeak?
So, to reiterate, those PVers who get the retail rate credited are thieves. Those that pay the actual wholesale rate are not... for that part of the transaction. If they pay retail for non-midday peak power they may still be thieves depending on how the rates are set.
No, actually commie a-hole fits YOU to a tee. What have YOU DONE to take responsibility for YOUR energy usage? Tiered rate structure research that if you can fathom it.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#16 Sep 17, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>No, actually commie a-hole fits YOU to a tee. What have YOU DONE to take responsibility for YOUR energy usage? Tiered rate structure research that if you can fathom it.
You have the political understanding of a teaspoon. Told you already, not my fault do don't remember. Seems no brain as well as no political savvy.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#17 Sep 17, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text>You have the political understanding of a teaspoon. Told you already, not my fault do don't remember. Seems no brain as well as no political savvy.
Political understanding? Yeah, right B.S. boy. "Told you already, not my fault do don't remember." "...do don't remember."? What, you havin' a stroke dumbass? Of course it's YOUR fault. You vote for the ones who have passed the laws that give individuals a tax break for installing energy efficiency like solar PV or hot water on their homes and businesses. You look for someone to pass the blame, so you don't have to deal with your own failings. Jesus!!

Since: Mar 13

Lancaster, OH

#18 Sep 18, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>Political understanding? Yeah, right B.S. boy. "Told you already, not my fault do don't remember." "...do don't remember."? What, you havin' a stroke dumbass? Of course it's YOUR fault. You vote for the ones who have passed the laws that give individuals a tax break for installing energy efficiency like solar PV or hot water on their homes and businesses. You look for someone to pass the blame, so you don't have to deal with your own failings. Jesus!!
Nope, voted for the other guys. Seems you are that which you accuse others of being.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#19 Sep 18, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> Nope, voted for the other guys. Seems you are that which you accuse others of being.
Right back at ya Bozo, cackle, thief, cackle, thief, cackle...... You who will whine at the drop of a hat, but cannot take responsibility for your energy use. Really, Kiteman, you're useless, whining does NOTHING, putting solar PV or solar Hot water on one's home does take responsibility for one's energy use. So, what "other" guys did YOU vote for that couldn't stop these energy efficiency programs from taking effect? What is it you DO? Whine, cackle, vote for nothing, DO nothing, whine some more. Waaaahh, Waaaahhh, Call a Wahmbulance.

Since: Mar 13

Lancaster, OH

#20 Sep 19, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>Right back at ya Bozo, cackle, thief, cackle, thief, cackle...... You who will whine at the drop of a hat, but cannot take responsibility for your energy use. Really, Kiteman, you're useless, whining does NOTHING, putting solar PV or solar Hot water on one's home does take responsibility for one's energy use. So, what "other" guys did YOU vote for that couldn't stop these energy efficiency programs from taking effect? What is it you DO? Whine, cackle, vote for nothing, DO nothing, whine some more. Waaaahh, Waaaahhh, Call a Wahmbulance.
Interesting, he who cannot read nor remember accuses me of not taking responsibilty for my energy use. Tis funny, ha ha.

I have no problem with responsible individuals placing PV or thermal solar panels on their houses. I do have a problem with them stealing the back-up services from the rest of us like most, if not all, do. You keep changing your story so I can't say whether you are one of those thieves, though you protest so much I can't help thinking that you think of yourself that way.

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