Solar rush to beat rise in power bills

Jun 2, 2013 Full story: Townsville Bulletin 62

TOWNSVILLE families struggling to make ends meet gripped on to alternative energy providers in the wake of the projected power rate rises.

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Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#1 Jun 2, 2013
"She said her comparative bill had already risen from $629.05 in the March quarter last year to $864 this year and feared what was to come."

"Meanwhile, Townsville mother-of-three Kelly Buttigieg turned to green living after her energy bill had dropped by $200 since she installed solar panels 12 months ago."

"Every electricity bill we have received, we have been getting $150 credit. We are actually making money," she said."

Now is the time to make these decisions. Solar PV has dropped in cost from just a few years ago. A system put in service in 2005 would cost half to install today. Most homes could be serviced by a 6KWh peak Solar PV system. This could be from 36 to 42 panels on one's roof depending on the location in the U.S. Let's say on average 40K. If you put 40K in the bank at a whopping 0.5 to 1% interest how much do you make in a year in interest? If you put 40K on your roof in solar PV, how much do you save on your electric bill each month? Check out www.dsireusa.org and see what energy efficiency programs are available in your State of the Union.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#2 Jun 3, 2013
First she was feeling the burden of the mal-regulation that is the "Renewables mandate". Then she joined the mal-regulation teat suckers and shifted the burden onto someone else by stealing free back-up services. Now you are proposing that everyone do it. Is it that you want to "bring down the sytem"? Do you chant "burn, baby, burn" in the back of your mind?
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#3 Jun 3, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
First she was feeling the burden of the mal-regulation that is the "Renewables mandate". Then she joined the mal-regulation teat suckers and shifted the burden onto someone else by stealing free back-up services. Now you are proposing that everyone do it. Is it that you want to "bring down the sytem"? Do you chant "burn, baby, burn" in the back of your mind?
You're a renter aren't ya? One that uses the rent controlled "mandate" to shift the burden on to taxpaying homeowners so you don't have to pay "market" prices. FREE back up services? What does the electric company gain? How about a distributed peak usage generation source the company doesn't have to maintain. No EIRs, no dates in court to protect a power plant project. No new power corridors needed since the power is used right next door or across the street. The system will bring itself down as long as the multi-million dollar paychecks the CEOs get produce the same stupid results. The power industry business model needs to change from generation and distribution to include storage. Solar PV is something people can DO, not talk about and make excuses for, like the lack of LTFR power generation. Jesus Sorensen you're such a tool.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#4 Jun 3, 2013
Solarman: You're a renter aren't ya? One that uses the rent controlled "mandate" to shift the burden on to taxpaying homeowners so you don't have to pay "market" prices.
KSA: Not sure what you are babbling about here. Renter? rent controled "mandate"? The only mandate I am familiar with on this topic is the government mandate that the power companies buy electricity they don't want from sources that destabilize their sytem.
Solarman: FREE back up services? What does the electric company gain? How about a distributed peak usage generation source the company doesn't have to maintain.
KSA: Not peak, doesn't reduce the amount of reliable power sources they must buy, maintain, and operate. Simply takes income from the operation of them.
Solarman: No EIRs, no dates in court to protect a power plant project. No new power corridors needed since the power is used right next door or across the street. The system will bring itself down as long as the multi-million dollar paychecks the CEOs get produce the same stupid results. The power industry business model needs to change from generation and distribution to include storage.
KSA: Storage that everyone ELSE (who don't need it) must pay for so that the "unreliables" supporters can have their druthers more cheaply.
Solarman: Solar PV is something people can DO, not talk about and make excuses for, like the lack of LTFR power generation. Jesus Sorensen you're such a tool.
KSA: Who do you think Sorensen is?
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#5 Jun 3, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
Solarman: You're a renter aren't ya? One that uses the rent controlled "mandate" to shift the burden on to taxpaying homeowners so you don't have to pay "market" prices.
KSA: Not sure what you are babbling about here. Renter? rent controled "mandate"? The only mandate I am familiar with on this topic is the government mandate that the power companies buy electricity they don't want from sources that destabilize their sytem.
Solarman: FREE back up services? What does the electric company gain? How about a distributed peak usage generation source the company doesn't have to maintain.
KSA: Not peak, doesn't reduce the amount of reliable power sources they must buy, maintain, and operate. Simply takes income from the operation of them.
Solarman: No EIRs, no dates in court to protect a power plant project. No new power corridors needed since the power is used right next door or across the street. The system will bring itself down as long as the multi-million dollar paychecks the CEOs get produce the same stupid results. The power industry business model needs to change from generation and distribution to include storage.
KSA: Storage that everyone ELSE (who don't need it) must pay for so that the "unreliables" supporters can have their druthers more cheaply.
Solarman: Solar PV is something people can DO, not talk about and make excuses for, like the lack of LTFR power generation. Jesus Sorensen you're such a tool.
KSA: Who do you think Sorensen is?
Sorensen or you are wishful tools that bloviate for nothing by nothing. When the 100+ LWRs run out of useful service life, what will the cost to decommission them be? Who's going to pay that cost? We may soon get a little taste with the San Onofre plant. Bottom line, if the energy industry doesn't change their business model to include power storage, then some company if not A123 now sold to China and renamed B456 will make a battery pack that will handle the load of a home. When that day comes the electric utility will become the new dinosaur. There's nothing cheap about the so called, "unreliables", if one takes responsibility to put solar on their home or businesses roof to offset the electric bill or eliminate the electric bill, they will still have to maintain their system themselves. If not the utility will get their 24/7 customer back once again.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#6 Jun 4, 2013
Solarman: When the 100+ LWRs run out of useful service life, what will the cost to decommission them be?
KSA: Way more than it actually needs to be because of idiots who follow folk like Caldicott. She may prove to have been the most effective terrorist of our age.

Solarman:: Who's going to pay that cost?
KSA: The power companies, i.e., the ratepayers. And when spread over the total energy sold by the plant, it will still be less expensive than energy from the unreliables the government is forcing them to pay for now.

Solarman: We may soon get a little taste with the San Onofre plant.
KSA: Yup, but that may happen BEFORE it has run out of useful life. If so, I hope there is a way to make those who vote to close it, pay for it. Decommissioning at the end of life is planned and pre-paid for. Decommission in the middle of life is usually a political action and should be pid for by the actor.

Solarman: Bottom line, if the energy industry doesn't change their business model to include power storage, then some company if not A123 now sold to China and renamed B456 will make a battery pack that will handle the load of a home.
KSA: Either that or we will be buying LFTRs from the Chinese. I'd much rather that Sorensen be successful and provide plenty of lean, clean, green energy from right here in the USA.

Solarman: When that day comes the electric utility will become the new dinosaur. There's nothing cheap about the so called, "unreliables", if one takes responsibility to put solar on their home or businesses roof to offset the electric bill or eliminate the electric bill, they will still have to maintain their system themselves. If not the utility will get their 24/7 customer back once again.
KSA: You have a confusing way of writing. First you seem to be in favor of the unreliables, then you note that they are not cheap and then you seem to suggest it is the owner's responsibility to NOT be connected to the utility but maintain their OWN system with storage. But then you seem to say it is the grid's responsibility to prove them with store (for free?)

I have no problem with anyone maintaining their OWN system, disconnected from the grid. It is those that first make use of the government mandate that the grid buy their unwanted power at top rates, then, having avoided paying for their fare share of the cost of maintaining PEAK power generating capacity, make use of it when they want. Basically, they are government authorized thieves. Responsible owners, good. Thieves, bad. Simple.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#7 Jun 4, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
Solarman: When the 100+ LWRs run out of useful service life, what will the cost to decommission them be?
KSA: Way more than it actually needs to be because of idiots who follow folk like Caldicott. She may prove to have been the most effective terrorist of our age.
Solarman:: Who's going to pay that cost?
KSA: The power companies, i.e., the ratepayers. And when spread over the total energy sold by the plant, it will still be less expensive than energy from the unreliables the government is forcing them to pay for now.
Solarman: We may soon get a little taste with the San Onofre plant.
KSA: Yup, but that may happen BEFORE it has run out of useful life. If so, I hope there is a way to make those who vote to close it, pay for it. Decommissioning at the end of life is planned and pre-paid for. Decommission in the middle of life is usually a political action and should be pid for by the actor.
Solarman: Bottom line, if the energy industry doesn't change their business model to include power storage, then some company if not A123 now sold to China and renamed B456 will make a battery pack that will handle the load of a home.
KSA: Either that or we will be buying LFTRs from the Chinese. I'd much rather that Sorensen be successful and provide plenty of lean, clean, green energy from right here in the USA.
Solarman: When that day comes the electric utility will become the new dinosaur. There's nothing cheap about the so called, "unreliables", if one takes responsibility to put solar on their home or businesses roof to offset the electric bill or eliminate the electric bill, they will still have to maintain their system themselves. If not the utility will get their 24/7 customer back once again.
KSA: You have a confusing way of writing. First you seem to be in favor of the unreliables, then you note that they are not cheap and then you seem to suggest it is the owner's responsibility to NOT be connected to the utility but maintain their OWN system with storage. But then you seem to say it is the grid's responsibility to prove them with store (for free?)
I have no problem with anyone maintaining their OWN system, disconnected from the grid. It is those that first make use of the government mandate that the grid buy their unwanted power at top rates, then, having avoided paying for their fare share of the cost of maintaining PEAK power generating capacity, make use of it when they want. Basically, they are government authorized thieves. Responsible owners, good. Thieves, bad. Simple.
Kiteman you're so screwed up. People who install solar ARE paying for peak power generation. The utility gets that excess (if any) and charges the neighbor the same rate that they paid for the electricity before the guy across the street installed his solar PV system. Your myopic vision is failing you. If this country is going to shift it's energy usage, it will need to have energy storage along the grid. Energy storage can be used for grid smoothing as well as keep the grid stable to avoid cascading grid faults that sometimes takes hours to get the grid back up to normal. With storage, electric vehicles could become common place.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#8 Jun 5, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>Kiteman you're so screwed up. People who install solar ARE paying for peak power generation. The utility gets that excess (if any) and charges the neighbor the same rate that they paid for the electricity before the guy across the street installed his solar PV system. Your myopic vision is failing you. If this country is going to shift it's energy usage, it will need to have energy storage along the grid. Energy storage can be used for grid smoothing as well as keep the grid stable to avoid cascading grid faults that sometimes takes hours to get the grid back up to normal. With storage, electric vehicles could become common place.
You are mistaken.
People who install PV and go Grid-Tied usually consume a small part of what they produce and thru gavernment mandates, force the utility to buy their excess at average daytime RETAIL prices when the utility can get the power elsewhere for much less. THEN, the PV abusers buy power BACK from the utility at average daytime retail during PEAK power time (evening, when the sun don't cut it) when the utiity must typically pay MORE than the average daytime retail.

Get over-paid for what you sell. Under-pay for what you buy. Sounds like theft to me. The government may be holding the gun, but it is still theft.

Oh, and the direct subsidy is a bit o theft in itself.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#9 Jun 5, 2013
Solarman wrote:
. If this country is going to shift it's energy usage, it will need to have energy storage along the grid.
Why should the grid shift it's energy use just because you want it to? If you want to have PV and get battery storage and a gas powered generator for back-up, more power to you. But to demand that OTHERS pay for storage they neither want or need just because YOU want it goes beyond simple theft to extortion. Shame on you!
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#10 Jun 5, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> Why should the grid shift it's energy use just because you want it to? If you want to have PV and get battery storage and a gas powered generator for back-up, more power to you. But to demand that OTHERS pay for storage they neither want or need just because YOU want it goes beyond simple theft to extortion. Shame on you!
So, YOUR plan is to load up the environment with LTFR. Not too bright there Kiteman. Since the major player in Nuclear, Westinghouse is pushing for their SMR a rehash of LWR. All of this talk of distributed power as opposed to local regional power to standard regional multi mega watt to giga watt generation plants. Right back at ya cupcake, why should things stay the same because YOU want it to be? YOU are incorrect, unless a Feed in Tariff has been introduced as was popular in Europe, the going retail rate for electricity is charged to the solar PV homeowner/generator and excess electricity is credited at the same retail rate. The electric utility industry infrastructure is over 50 years old. It needs upgrading, one of the major failures is the inability of the grid structure to store power for later use. Utility scale flow batteries could be installed anywhere along the grid and do not require such specific geology as that needed for pumped hydro storage, CAES. Kiteman you're so backwards you need a mirror to walk. The world spends a great deal of money every day conditioning living spaces to keep indoor environments comfortable. Instead of fighting nature, putting in place an energy usage topology that uses the sun as a primary driving force to condition those indoor spaces makes more sense than to use more resources fighting the heat gain process the sun already provides. America the free Kiteman, you seem to like to piss in the wind, that's YOUR prerogative. Your simple minded assertion that one that installs Solar PV on their home's roof is stealing or extorting is plain stupid. Who did YOU vote for in the last election Kiteman? Did YOUR candidate of choice sign or sponsor an energy bill that requires RECs and net metering? Who's to blame there? Kiteman, lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. Right now you're part of YOUR own problem not part of the solution.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#11 Jun 6, 2013
Solarman:
Until you can distinguish between a light water reactor (Westinghouse's SMR) and Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR) your postings will have the value of the ramblings of any village idiot.

Please learn something before you pontificate.

If you want things to change, YOU pay for it. Using my money for YOUR change is THEFT.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#12 Jun 6, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
Solarman:
Until you can distinguish between a light water reactor (Westinghouse's SMR) and Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor (LFTR) your postings will have the value of the ramblings of any village idiot.
Please learn something before you pontificate.
If you want things to change, YOU pay for it. Using my money for YOUR change is THEFT.
I know the difference between SMR and LTFR, my point lostling is LTFR has zero interest at the regulating agency the NRC and SMR and LWR have the NRCs attention, DUH. I have stolen from NO ONE and I have paid for my solar system, what have YOU DONE. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#13 Jun 6, 2013
Solarman wrote:
. I have stolen from NO ONE and I have paid for my solar system, what have YOU DONE. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.
You have almost certainly gotten a tax credit for your purchase. If so, theft. If you are Grid Tied, almost certainly theft. Just about the only way you are NOT stealing from someone is if you didn't get tax credit and you are not Grid Tied. In which case, my comments never applied to you. Either you are a thief, and shame on you; or you are not (and good on you) but almost all other PVers are.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#14 Jun 6, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> You have almost certainly gotten a tax credit for your purchase. If so, theft. If you are Grid Tied, almost certainly theft. Just about the only way you are NOT stealing from someone is if you didn't get tax credit and you are not Grid Tied. In which case, my comments never applied to you. Either you are a thief, and shame on you; or you are not (and good on you) but almost all other PVers are.
It doesn't matter where the electricity is generated, it is credited at the same rate the power company charges ALL ratepayers. The utility doesn't have to maintain the system, justify environmental impact so no EIRs. No new infrastructure is needed for a generation source that puts out the most power during peak usage times of the day. They do nothing but give me a credit to use at night or during cloudy days. There was a ONE TIME Federal Tax Credit, money I have sent to OUR Government for decades. This time I was able to get some of it back. So, you don't file a tax return? You then don't get anything back from the Government, Right? So, are YOU stealing from the "taxpayers" by getting a tax return? SHAME ON YOU, you pathetic fool. You didn't answer my previous question. WHO did YOU vote for in the last election? ARE YOU that stupid to think that these energy programs that have been around for decades cropped up overnight? They were Legislation at one point that passed and were signed into law. So, did YOUR candidate of choice vote for such Legislation? Then YOU would be part of the problem, SHAME ON YOU. You screw yourself and blame someone else, how sad. Enlighten yourself: www.dsireusa.org , then lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#15 Jun 7, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>It doesn't matter where the electricity is generated, it is credited at the same rate the power company charges ALL ratepayers.
EXACTLY. They are required to pay you RETAIL when the system and prices are set up for them to pay wholesale. They could get that power CHEAPER than what they must pay you. That difference is the theft. Change the laws such that they only had to pay the REAL wholesale value of the energy and the theft stops.

Grocery stores don't pay retail for their goods. Clothing stores don't pay retail. They both CHARGE retail, but pay wholesale. Requiring them to PAY retail and CHARGE retail is a great way to have no stores. And it is theft, by someone.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#16 Jun 7, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> EXACTLY. They are required to pay you RETAIL when the system and prices are set up for them to pay wholesale. They could get that power CHEAPER than what they must pay you. That difference is the theft. Change the laws such that they only had to pay the REAL wholesale value of the energy and the theft stops.
Grocery stores don't pay retail for their goods. Clothing stores don't pay retail. They both CHARGE retail, but pay wholesale. Requiring them to PAY retail and CHARGE retail is a great way to have no stores. And it is theft, by someone.
You must love the constant stinging in your eyes from peeing in the wind. My net metering CONTRACT with the local utility does not "pay" me anything. They give me credits for the power passed along to the grid, which the neighbors use and I use the credits at night and on cloudy days. No money changes hands, dumbass. The utility could buy it cheaper, but they don't have to get it to market. The utility does not increase the price of the solar generated power, it costs the same to the neighbors as the electricity from the power plant. In YOUR own State of the union, they have had energy efficiency laws on the books since 1977. Who put those there? Perhaps one or more of YOUR candidates of choice? So, what are YOU going to do about it? Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#17 Jun 7, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>You must love the constant stinging in your eyes from peeing in the wind. My net metering CONTRACT with the local utility does not "pay" me anything. They give me credits for the power passed along to the grid, which the neighbors use and I use the credits at night and on cloudy days..
So they pay you credits rather than dollars. Are you that dim as to think it makes a difference? You are getting more value than the utility is willing to give you. The fact that they do it thru and intermediary is immaterial. That just means you are stealing services instead of money. It is still theft.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#19 Jun 8, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
<quoted text> So they pay you credits rather than dollars. Are you that dim as to think it makes a difference? You are getting more value than the utility is willing to give you. The fact that they do it thru and intermediary is immaterial. That just means you are stealing services instead of money. It is still theft.
YOU must be at least THAT dim. I have a net metering contract with the utility. They are not "willing" to give me anything. I am providing a peak generation source during peak power usage times of the day. This net metering contract is the result of many years of Legislation that was signed into law. So, once again lostling, who did you vote for in the last election? Are you going to find and vote for candidates that will dismantle decades of laws? WHAT are YOU going to DO? Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. Your accusations of theft are no more than some self righteous guilt trip, it means NOTHING and DOES NOTHING. Yeah, Yeah, Kiteman, pack your bags we're going on a guilt trip. What have YOU DONE to take responsibility for your energy usage?

Since: Mar 13

Alexandria, VA

#20 Jun 9, 2013
You are benefiting from a forced sale at above going rates and benefiting from a regulated purchase at below real value. You are a thief. End of issue.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#21 Jun 9, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
You are benefiting from a forced sale at above going rates and benefiting from a regulated purchase at below real value. You are a thief. End of issue.
Blah,
blah, blah , whine, whine, whine. Pack your bags we're going on a guilt trip. so, what are YOU going to do about it Kiteman? Call the law? File a police report? Whine some more in an entitled fashion,"End of issue". Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way Kiteman. There are enough whiners in this country, when will we expect YOU to DO something about it? IF you don't like it, change it. YOU can't can you? You're just another impotent voice whining in the night, saying NOTHING and DOING NOTHING.

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