Boost for cars or bust? Ethanol debate heats up

Jun 24, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Boston.com

It's a dilemma for drivers: Do they choose a gasoline that's cheaper and cleaner even if, as opponents say, it could damage older cars and motorcycles? That's the peril and promise of a high-ethanol blend of gasoline known as E15.

Comments
1 - 15 of 15 Comments Last updated Sep 16, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#1 Jun 24, 2013
The FACTS are not really in debate.

True: E15 may be going too far for older cars. You don't need that level of ethanol to gain the advantages of ethanol. And the current drought conditions argue against increased reliance on ethanol from corn. Those are the real issues.

Not using ethanol will make your car go further on a gallon but WILL cause problems with emissions controls, valves and other problems in any modern car.

And compare a pre-2000 car with gasoline using MTBE instead of ethanol with a modern engine and you will find that the fuel mileage is MUCH lower. One reason is that ethanol reduces the buildup of 'gunk' and carbon fouling which is part of the reason that engines today can be more efficient, and maintain that efficiency long into their lifetime.

If you have a PRE-2000 car engine, by all means use non-ethanol gasoline. I would recommend using nitro in a fuel dragster for the same reason. The engines are designed for the fuel standard that they are expected to use. Modern cars are designed for E10. Using a fuel they are NOT designed for will cause problems, NOT related to how 'good' the fuel is.

We certainly need to go off of corn for generating ethanol. Importing sugar from brazil would be one way to do that. Ethanol from sugar cane is significantly cheaper to produce than from corn and ethanol from cellulose (the ultimate goal) is not yet ready for volume production.

The rest is political infighting of no real value.
litesong

Monroe, WA

#2 Jun 27, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
.....the current drought conditions argue against increased reliance on ethanol from corn.
Not using ethanol will make your car go further on a gallon but WILL cause problems with emissions controls, valves and other problems in any modern car.
...... ethanol reduces the buildup of 'gunk' and carbon fouling which is part of the reason that engines today can be more efficient, and maintain that efficiency long into their lifetime.

We certainly need to go off of corn for generating ethanol.
Using 100% gasoline in modern engines designed & built for 100% gasoline, makes engines perform at their best. My 25 year old Ford Festiva, past 100,000 miles, is now getting its best mpg & performing at its best with 100% gasoline. More modern cars do the same. The 2--7 Dodge Caliber I traded for my Epsilon Lyrae(Elantra), got

My last 3 cars got 8%, 7%, & 5% by using 100% gasoline rather than 10% ethanol blends. Many people report even greater mpg gains, using 100% gasoline. Furthermore, gasoline engines designed & built to use 100% gasoline, run smoother, quieter, & with a bit more low rpm torque, such that less downshifting is necessary ascending hills. Anyone carrying heavy loads needs the extra power from 100% gasoline.

EPA uses the equivalent of 100% gasoline to run their EPA, city & highway mpg tests & manufacturers love the readings they get.

The EPA never considered decreases in mpg, or ethanol's decreased compatibility with gasoline engines, when stating that ethanol burns cleaner in one particular pollutant. Ethanol needs higher compression ethanol engines(like INDY cars) to gain its efficiency. Lower gasoline compression engines lose ethanol's efficiency.

People need to use & demand 100% gasoline availability. Go to pure-gas.org for addresses, details, & a great zoomable map for stations selling 100% pure gasoline in the U.S. & Canada.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#3 Jun 27, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
My last 3 cars got 8%, 7%, & 5% by using 100% gasoline rather than 10% ethanol blends.
Of course, the car back then got 16 mpg, so even with 'pure gas' a modern engine with 10% ethanol will beat the sh*t out of it on mileage. And keep that mileage much longer with fewer emissions.
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
People need to use & demand 100% gasoline availability.
Not. Unless they all have 25 year old cars. Grow up and get with the modern era. The latest engines have MUCH higher output and mileage on less energy by using 10% ethanol, and NOT using toxic additives like lead or MTBE.
litesong

Monroe, WA

#4 Jun 27, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
Of course, the car back then got 16 mpg, so even with 'pure gas' a modern engine with 10% ethanol will beat the sh*t out of it on mileage. And keep that mileage much longer with fewer emissions.

Not. Unless they all have 25 year old cars. Grow up and get with the modern era. The latest engines have MUCH higher output and mileage on less energy by using 10% ethanol, and NOT using toxic additives like lead or MTBE.
You can be a silly goose. My Ford Festiva had an EPA rating (back then, over inflated) of 42mpg. In my early years, I feather footed the Ford Festiva to AVERAGE just under 43mpg, much higher than almost all other drivers. With the switch to 100% pure gasoline, presently I average 46mpg, with a high of 57mpg. I've told you that repeatedly........ REPEATEDLY, but you desire to wish that the 16mpg cars you drove, were the best to be had.

& lest you think I don't have newer cars, my wife has a 2008 car & I just traded my 7 year old car(using 100% gasoline giving 7% better mpg than ethanol) for a 2013 non-turbo, non-diesel, non-hybrid, but which is averaging 38mpg with 100% gasoline, altho its rated at 32-3mpg-city-highway,combined.

For an AGW advocate, you can act like an AGW denier with a good case of flapjaw.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#5 Jun 27, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
My Ford Festiva had an EPA rating (back then, over inflated) of 42mpg.
Sorry. I though we were talking about cars, not motorized roller skates. You have my sympathy. But don't worry about gasoline. Just wind up the rubber band..
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#6 Jun 28, 2013
The facts are that a modern car running on E10 will beat the pants off an equivalent car from 25 years ago running on toxic lead or MTBE based gasoline.

Sunoco was advertising it's 'clean gas' even before they mandated the idea because it kept engines clean and near the top of their efficiency, preventing lead fouling, gunk, and contamination of pollution controls. We can now push the octane level with LESS refining of the heavier oils we NOW have (pushing up costs for 'pure gas', and the engines are not only smaller, but last longer and are more efficent later in their life span.

Rather than the old 454 cubic inch hemi(7.5 liters!), we can now get good reliable horsepower from a ONE liter engine on E10.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130606/A...

A Ford Fusion (Mid Size) now gets better fuel economy on E10 (47 mpg combined) than the litesongs 1988 motorized roller skate got on 'puregas'(officially 34 mpg).
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/1988_F...

Even tracking the real life fuel economies of the Ford Fiesta, you can see a steady increase in fuel efficiency in real world use, not even looking at better cars or the latest technology. Just cheap simple motorized roller skates.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/fiesta

Sorry Litesong but on this issue, you are clearly biased and unthinking. New cars designed for and using E10 are MUCH more fuel efficient than older 'puregas' cars, are less hazardous to the environment and don't deteriorate from accumulated fuel residues. E10 improves the technology.

That said, I would prefer it be made from cellulose or imported sugar.

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#7 Aug 29, 2013
Wow, two eco-freaks on opposite sides of an issue. Well, at least now ONE of them is bound to be right for the first time in their lives! ;)
whats up

UK

#8 Aug 29, 2013
KitemanSA wrote:
Wow, two eco-freaks on opposite sides of an issue. Well, at least now ONE of them is bound to be right for the first time in their lives! ;)
Ahead of you anyway.
whats up

UK

#9 Aug 29, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
You can be a silly goose. My Ford Festiva had an EPA rating (back then, over inflated) of 42mpg. In my early years, I feather footed the Ford Festiva to AVERAGE just under 43mpg, much higher than almost all other drivers. With the switch to 100% pure gasoline, presently I average 46mpg, with a high of 57mpg. I've told you that repeatedly........ REPEATEDLY, but you desire to wish that the 16mpg cars you drove, were the best to be had.
& lest you think I don't have newer cars, my wife has a 2008 car & I just traded my 7 year old car(using 100% gasoline giving 7% better mpg than ethanol) for a 2013 non-turbo, non-diesel, non-hybrid, but which is averaging 38mpg with 100% gasoline, altho its rated at 32-3mpg-city-highway,combined.
For an AGW advocate, you can act like an AGW denier with a good case of flapjaw.
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-ec onomy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparis on-test.html
whats up

UK

#10 Aug 29, 2013

Since: Mar 13

Washington, DC

#11 Aug 29, 2013
whats up wrote:
<quoted text>Ahead of you anyway.
FUNNY. Wrong, but funny.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#12 Aug 30, 2013
whats up wrote:
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-ec onomy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparis on-test.html
Flex Fuel here is the problem. While it lowers the compression rating so that gasoline can be used, it penalizes use of E85 by robbing it of the efficiency of higher compression.

To get a valid comparison you need the same vehicle and engine but one optimized for E85 and the other engine optimized for gasoline. If you do that, you will find that gasoline gives you a small increase in fuel mileage for a higher cost at the pump.
litesong

Lynnwood, WA

#13 Aug 31, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
The facts are that a modern car running on E10 will beat the pants off an equivalent car from 25 years ago running on toxic lead or MTBE based gasoline.

A Ford Fusion (Mid Size) now gets better fuel economy on E10 (47 mpg combined) than the litesongs 1988 Ford Festiva got on 'puregas'.

Even tracking the real life fuel economies of the Ford Fiesta(??)......

New cars designed for and using E10 are MUCH more fuel efficient than older 'puregas' cars.....
Old cars versus new cars never was the issue in this thread...... specially when you don't know a Festiva from a Fiesta. The subject is 10%(or more) ethanol blends or 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) used in modern(mostly) or old(rarely) gasoline engines designed & built to burn 100% gasoline.

With records over a period of a decade(more?), my 3 gasoline cars(from 1988 to 2008) got 8%, 7% & 5% better mpg using 100% gasoline rather than ethanol. Presently, my 2013 Hyundai Elantra auto tranny, bad-mouthed by leadfooters for poor mpg(who were getting sub-30mpg), is averaging 39mpg using 100% gasoline with 15% city driving & tanks emptied over 4 to 7+ days of travel. Five of the last 7 tanks have been 40mpg or better.

LHMF, to prove 10% ethanol blends burned in gasoline engines is more efficient than 100% gasoline, can present 4 cylinder gasoline 2013 Elantra auto tranny vehicles(non-diesel, non-turbo diesel, non-turbo gasoline, & non-hybrid), to beat my example, without a professional hypermiler piloting the vehicle(s). I will allow LHMF to pump tires to 38psi, but no modifications & as they come off the assembly line. Terrain is from sea level to 700 feet, 1400 feet several times, one trip to 4000 feet.

Go to it, since you think ethanol in modern gasoline vehicles is a wonderful fuel, instead of the crippling non-energy fuel it is. Over & over I have told you, ethanol needs an ethanol engine(like INDY cars) to run efficiently with much higher compression ratios than gasoline engines have. Of course, you know this. This is not rocket science. But it is good gasoline engine science that determines that 100% gasoline is the best fuel for gasoline engines.

Ethanol's worthlessness is disguised by the energy in gasoline that is extracted efficiently from gasoline engines....... just like the ethanol industry figured out.

Since: Sep 13

Chandigarh, India

#14 Sep 3, 2013
10% of ethanol is recommended to mix with gasoline. But now with the use of 15% ethanol with gasoline the chances of damage of our cars. This mixture can get fire easily in warm conditions.
litesong

Lynnwood, WA

#15 Sep 16, 2013
RAAVAN1243 wrote:
10% of ethanol is recommended to mix with gasoline. But now with the use of 15% ethanol with gasoline the chances of damage of our cars. This mixture can get fire easily in warm conditions.
If 15% ethanol blends will damage gasoline engines, why do people have a hard time believing that 10% ethanol blends are giving mpg decreases of 5% to 10% compared to 100% gasoline.

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