BP Finds Sustainability in Oil and Ga...

BP Finds Sustainability in Oil and Gas, Sells Off Wind

There are 10 comments on the The Heartland Institute story from Apr 13, 2013, titled BP Finds Sustainability in Oil and Gas, Sells Off Wind. In it, The Heartland Institute reports that:

Only a month ago BP - which not long ago promoted itself as " Beyond Petroleum " - released an "energy outlook" video that projected 99 percent of America's energy will be supplied domestically by 2030, in part because it says the U.S. will grow production from renewable sources 202 percent by that time.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Heartland Institute.

SpaceBlues

Houston, TX

#1 Apr 13, 2013
So BP sells off wind, and Poster ph'd stops posting "wind mills rule!"

Is there any connection? There must be because that poster is floundering nowadays in profanities, lol.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#2 Apr 14, 2013
There is some validity to the promotion of wind power if you read the scientific american article on EROEI. The second highest EROEI is wind power and it is quite high enough to power a technological civilization for a sustainable future.

I get that some people find them 'ugly' but there must be many billions of acres of land with high winds where they would not 'spoil the view'. The real problem seems to be siting them near residential areas to avoid the power loss of long supply feeds. We need to deal with this so that investment is not curtailed.
Solarman

Twentynine Palms, CA

#3 Apr 14, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
There is some validity to the promotion of wind power if you read the scientific american article on EROEI. The second highest EROEI is wind power and it is quite high enough to power a technological civilization for a sustainable future.
I get that some people find them 'ugly' but there must be many billions of acres of land with high winds where they would not 'spoil the view'. The real problem seems to be siting them near residential areas to avoid the power loss of long supply feeds. We need to deal with this so that investment is not curtailed.
It goes a little deeper than that. In the Palm Springs area, there have been wind turbines online for about 25 years. One of the problems was a couple of years ago, on a long three day weekend, some copper cowboys hit five "working" turbines and cut the main feed wires from the top of the tower to the bottom of the feed into the power transformer. The cowboys got themselves about 5K worth of copper to "recycle". It cost the wind turbine company 50K to put the units back into operation. Even with increased security measures, large wind turbine fields covering several hundred square miles of rural area are still vulnerable to such vandalism. If a turbine unit happens to be offline at the time of such an event, the theft may not be discovered for days or weeks. The more wind turbines installed the more likely these events will occur. Somewhere there is a point where outside costs like extra security, remote telemetry, additional maintenance and repair will add to the cost of the electricity generated. At that point will wind energy be "more" cost effective than say a natural gas peaker plant?
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#4 Apr 16, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>It goes a little deeper than that. In the Palm Springs area, there have been wind turbines online for about 25 years. One of the problems was a couple of years ago, on a long three day weekend, some copper cowboys hit five "working" turbines and cut the main feed wires from the top of the tower to the bottom of the feed into the power transformer.
They can steal copper from a nuclear plant too. The majority of a nuclear plant is MOSTLY the steam turbines, generators and transformer stations.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>The cowboys got themselves about 5K worth of copper to "recycle". It cost the wind turbine company 50K to put the units back into operation.
Like the easy access to guns and movies about 'retribution by lethal weapons' promoted instead of working with police, etc. leading to more random shooting, the emphasis on 'me first' individualism in the US may lead to more of this problem. But that is a social and cultural problem. It can be handled mostly by improved security (i.e cameras on each wind generator, observing nearby units rather than itself. And improved monitoring of unusual amounts of 'waste scrap' by people with no obvious source of metal.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>Even with increased security measures, large wind turbine fields covering several hundred square miles of rural area are still vulnerable to such vandalism.
Remote monitoring and even simple sensors to detect human intrusion (so that there is not a need for endless monitoring of hundreds of units) could fix this. It is a question of cost effective technology and it would be a small additional cost to the windfarm.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>If a turbine unit happens to be offline at the time of such an event, the theft may not be discovered for days or weeks. The more wind turbines installed the more likely these events will occur. Somewhere there is a point where outside costs like extra security, remote telemetry, additional maintenance and repair will add to the cost of the electricity generated. At that point will wind energy be "more" cost effective than say a natural gas peaker plant?
You seem to assume a high cost for security. The facts are that the system is reasonably 'static' so monitoring for change is relatively easy to detect an intrusion. And webcams are getting really cheap in quantity. This is not specific to wind power. The same thing can happen to solar farms (at night ;-) or even gas turbines peaking plants (while waiting for demand).

Wind power is not the issue and it is deceptive to try to make it one, just for one specific brazen incident in 25 years.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#5 Apr 17, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
They can steal copper from a nuclear plant too. The majority of a nuclear plant is MOSTLY the steam turbines, generators and transformer stations.
<quoted text>
Like the easy access to guns and movies about 'retribution by lethal weapons' promoted instead of working with police, etc. leading to more random shooting, the emphasis on 'me first' individualism in the US may lead to more of this problem. But that is a social and cultural problem. It can be handled mostly by improved security (i.e cameras on each wind generator, observing nearby units rather than itself. And improved monitoring of unusual amounts of 'waste scrap' by people with no obvious source of metal.
<quoted text>
Remote monitoring and even simple sensors to detect human intrusion (so that there is not a need for endless monitoring of hundreds of units) could fix this. It is a question of cost effective technology and it would be a small additional cost to the windfarm.
<quoted text>
You seem to assume a high cost for security. The facts are that the system is reasonably 'static' so monitoring for change is relatively easy to detect an intrusion. And webcams are getting really cheap in quantity. This is not specific to wind power. The same thing can happen to solar farms (at night ;-) or even gas turbines peaking plants (while waiting for demand).
Wind power is not the issue and it is deceptive to try to make it one, just for one specific brazen incident in 25 years.
WHAT? "Like easy access to guns and movies about 'retribution by lethal weapons'....." What's this some kind of social "theory of everything"? And YOU have the balls to say:"Wind power is not the issue and it is deceptive to try to make it one, just for one specific brazen incident in 25 years." Most wind farms do have SCADA to monitor the turbine field, so your nanny cams is a moot point at best. This particular incident made the local papers, only the wind farm management knows how many 'brazen' incidents have happened over a 25 year period. You work in SCADA and security do you? Yeah, didn't think so.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#6 Apr 17, 2013
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>What's this some kind of social "theory of everything"?
What a silly statement. From Pavlov to Anthopology we know that culture is about what is promoted in society. Competition or cooperation. Violence or peace. You get what you promote. Monkey see, monkey do..
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>And YOU have the balls to say:"Wind power is not the issue and it is deceptive to try to make it one, just for one specific brazen incident in 25 years."
Perfectly true. Problems with society don't restrict themselves to wind farms. And part of the reason is the promotion of 'it's not wrong if you get away with it' sort of logic.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>Most wind farms do have SCADA to monitor the turbine field, so your nanny cams is a moot point at best.
Scada is just a form of programming for multiple sources of data acquisition and response. That is also an irrelevant point. The critical points are having monitoring and to have monitoring that prompts security when something is happening.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text>This particular incident made the local papers, only the wind farm management knows how many 'brazen' incidents have happened over a 25 year period.
Copper 'salvage' is not unique to wind farms. Use your head. There are MANY incidents and not many are on wind farms. I would imaging that it happens pretty much every day SOMEWHERE.
Solarman wrote:
<quoted text> You work in SCADA and security do you? Yeah, didn't think so.
You do not know me and you do not want to go there.
Solarman

La Quinta, CA

#7 Apr 18, 2013
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
What a silly statement. From Pavlov to Anthopology we know that culture is about what is promoted in society. Competition or cooperation. Violence or peace. You get what you promote. Monkey see, monkey do..
<quoted text>
Perfectly true. Problems with society don't restrict themselves to wind farms. And part of the reason is the promotion of 'it's not wrong if you get away with it' sort of logic.
<quoted text>
Scada is just a form of programming for multiple sources of data acquisition and response. That is also an irrelevant point. The critical points are having monitoring and to have monitoring that prompts security when something is happening.
<quoted text>
Copper 'salvage' is not unique to wind farms. Use your head. There are MANY incidents and not many are on wind farms. I would imaging that it happens pretty much every day SOMEWHERE.
<quoted text>
You do not know me and you do not want to go there.
YOU don't know ME either you pompous Ass. Answer the question IF you dare, what SCADA experience DO YOU have, What security experience DO YOU have? From your above response and stupid reply, calling SCADA irrelevant shows your ineptitude in what it is and how it is used in the industry.
litesong

Lynnwood, WA

#8 Apr 18, 2013
Solarman wrote:
...... a couple of years ago, on a long three day weekend, some copper cowboys hit five "working" turbines and cut the main feed wires from the top of the tower to the bottom of the feed into the power transformer. The cowboys got themselves about 5K worth of copper to "recycle". It cost the wind turbine company 50K to put the units back into operation. Even with increased security measures, large wind turbine fields covering several hundred square miles of rural area are still vulnerable to such vandalism. If a turbine unit happens to be offline at the time of such an event, the theft may not be discovered for days or weeks. The more wind turbines installed the more likely these events will occur.
Metal theft at isolated wind turbine facilities is serious & some facilities have been struck multiple times.
http://www.indyrepnews.com/section/3/article/...

Among the many solutions, hiring local people, possibly families who are paid for their land use, could be one of the most straight forward methods of security. Indeed, company programs to involve communities to protect their local assets is great PR.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#9 Apr 18, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Metal theft at isolated wind turbine facilities is serious & some facilities have been struck multiple times.
http://www.indyrepnews.com/section/3/article/...
Among the many solutions, hiring local people, possibly families who are paid for their land use, could be one of the most straight forward methods of security. Indeed, company programs to involve communities to protect their local assets is great PR.
It is an issue that needs work. Offshore, not so much. I am convinced that it is not that big a problem with cheap sensors and good design. You need enough sensors to cover the area and a method means of detecting 'intrustion' so as not to create boredom among the monitoring staff. Just look at how cheap home alarm systems are.

Note: Solar is also getting more practical. It has (according to Scientific American) now reached 'grid parity' in about 10% of installations in about half the states (where cheap hydro, etc isn't available). The use of a combination of these resources will do very well to displace the reliance on fossil fuels. Check out
tinyurl.com/bl93avq for a reasoned and balanced approach.

Judged:

10

10

7

Reply »
Report Abuse Judge it!
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#10 Apr 19, 2013
""Chevron officials. It decided products with potential returns of at least 5 percent weren’t enough for a multinational used to margins triple that, said Paul Bryan, a former vice president of biofuels technology."

This is a telling clue to why BP might be selling off wind, just as Chevron sells off it's 'biofuels' division. The profit margins on oil and gas are higher still (especially with the $50 billion in public subsidies). They just raise the price (which wind cannot do) to ensure their comfort. Can't have the fat cats having to sell off their private Lear-jet now can we?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Alternative Energy Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Information available for homeowners interested... 4 hr Solarman 1
News Solar startup M-KOPA leapfrogs Africa's electri... 4 hr Solarman 1
News Getting Serious About Keeping Fossil Fuels in t... 7 hr IB DaMann 6
News New metamaterial could allow us to generate sol... Tue Solarman 1
News Ousted NRG Ceo David Crane to Join Pegasus Capi... Tue Solarman 1
News Daimler starts deliveries of Mercedes-Benz Li-i... Apr 24 Solarman 1
News Solar energy use is skyrocketing, and youa ll n... Apr 24 Solarman 1
More from around the web