DDWFTTW is it really possible?

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“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#1
Apr 20, 2013
 
There are lots of discussions and video's on the topic, but I have yet to see one prototype for sale. If it actually worked, you'd think you could buy one as a toy, you know, like a tippy-top or some suchitch ....
http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
RE: Tippy Top
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Sep 08

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#2
Apr 20, 2013
 
Yes, it is real.

Thanks Oogah Boogah.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#3
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
Yes, it is real.
Thanks Oogah Boogah.
Got any idea where I can buy a toy prototype?

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#4
Apr 20, 2013
 
I have seen tippy tops and on a related note here is a mechanical equivalent of DDWFTTW It is "Under the ruler faster than the ruler" where the ruler is the moving object that is giving energy to a cart. The cart moves faster than the ruler pushing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Sep 08

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#5
Apr 20, 2013
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Got any idea where I can buy a toy prototype?
Nope, but here are directions of how to build it and where to get parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

That is part 1 of three.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#6
Apr 20, 2013
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Got any idea where I can buy a toy prototype?
Like wig craft if you want one, you will have to build it yourself. Americans have historically been pretty good at this type thing. But you really have to want to do it. And pay for it, I find it hard to do such endeavors , especially in a slow economy. Like me and combat robots , the parts aren't cheap. Or even the wig craft or DDWFTTW car or project car resto, or the boat, or we accumulate too many projects sometimes. LOL Seriously though if you wwanted to build a model of one of those , it would be pretty cheap. To build a full size hi tec model...not so much. But a model with rc parts and balsa would cost very little.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#7
Apr 20, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Like wig craft if you want one, you will have to build it yourself. Americans have historically been pretty good at this type thing. But you really have to want to do it. And pay for it, I find it hard to do such endeavors , especially in a slow economy. Like me and combat robots , the parts aren't cheap. Or even the wig craft or DDWFTTW car or project car resto, or the boat, or we accumulate too many projects sometimes. LOL Seriously though if you wwanted to build a model of one of those , it would be pretty cheap. To build a full size hi tec model...not so much. But a model with rc parts and balsa would cost very little.
Exactly why I think a toy company would be interested. Even "rattlebacks" are simple to manufacture but kind of hard to make just one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

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#8
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
I have seen tippy tops and on a related note here is a mechanical equivalent of DDWFTTW It is "Under the ruler faster than the ruler" where the ruler is the moving object that is giving energy to a cart. The cart moves faster than the ruler pushing it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I liked that video, but think it is more demonstrative of gear ratios than DDWFTTW.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#9
Apr 20, 2013
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly why I think a toy company would be interested. Even "rattlebacks" are simple to manufacture but kind of hard to make just one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Wow that's crazy. lol

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#10
Apr 20, 2013
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
I liked that video, but think it is more demonstrative of gear ratios than DDWFTTW.
It runs on the same principle. That reminds me. To a first approximation air can be treated as an incompressible fluid. Think of a screw in a vat of Jello. A moving vat of Jello with an embedded screw would be very similar to the example of the ruler and the geared cart.
There are quite a few variations of this concept.

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#11
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
It runs on the same principle. That reminds me. To a first approximation air can be treated as an incompressible fluid. Think of a screw in a vat of Jello. A moving vat of Jello with an embedded screw would be very similar to the example of the ruler and the geared cart.
There are quite a few variations of this concept.
I'm more interested in the interaction of the propeller and the drive train and when and how the wheels go from being driven to driving the propeller. That transition would be crucial and is not modeled on the treadmill.

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#12
Apr 20, 2013
 
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm more interested in the interaction of the propeller and the drive train and when and how the wheels go from being driven to driving the propeller. That transition would be crucial and is not modeled on the treadmill.
The wheels always drive the propeller. The propeller never drives the wheels. In fact the wind "wants" to turn the propeller the other way.

Watch this video, it is one where they were testing the BUFC (Big Ugly F***ing Cart). Like the Big Bang Theory that name was given by a detractor and it was adopted, until he got some sponsors and then spork decided it would be better to have a more friendly name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Right near the end of this video a chain ring collapses. They used the "test to destruction" method early on to find the bugs in the BUFC.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#13
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
The wheels always drive the propeller. The propeller never drives the wheels. In fact the wind "wants" to turn the propeller the other way.
Watch this video, it is one where they were testing the BUFC (Big Ugly F***ing Cart). Like the Big Bang Theory that name was given by a detractor and it was adopted, until he got some sponsors and then spork decided it would be better to have a more friendly name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Right near the end of this video a chain ring collapses. They used the "test to destruction" method early on to find the bugs in the BUFC.
If they are connected they do, at times the propeller is stored energy driving the wheels, like a cars flywheel it carries momentum or potential energy. This is part its strong suit, as the stored energy between the two will drive both once it's wound up. Reciprocating mass = torque and energy.

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#14
Apr 20, 2013
 
Asides the fact if the prop didn't drive the wheels, it could never move into the wind.

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#15
Apr 20, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> If they are connected they do, at times the propeller is stored energy driving the wheels, like a cars flywheel it carries momentum or potential energy. This is part its strong suit, as the stored energy between the two will drive both once it's wound up. Reciprocating mass = torque and energy.
Actually no.

Since storing potential energy is illegal according to the rules they had a ratchet device so that the prop would freewheel rather than turning the wheels.

sprok knew he would be accused of cheating that way so he made sure it was written into the rules and he made sure that he followed them. He did not want his record ruined by an oversight.

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#16
Apr 20, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
Asides the fact if the prop didn't drive the wheels, it could never move into the wind.
Yes, for the upwind cart they had to put a totally different transmission and they used a different rotor too.

The rotor for the downwind record worked best as a propeller.

The rotor for the upwind record worked best as a turbine.

Now you could find a happy medium, lock the transmission so that it would not free wheel. And have variable gear ratios and you could go either way.

But as built when it was in downwind mode it could only go downwind. Now a turbine model can go directly downwind but it cannot go DDWFTTW.

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#17
Apr 20, 2013
 
Details of all of this is in their build blog that I linked earlier.

<Sigh> I guess I have to find that again.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#18
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
The wheels always drive the propeller. The propeller never drives the wheels. In fact the wind "wants" to turn the propeller the other way.
Watch this video, it is one where they were testing the BUFC (Big Ugly F***ing Cart). Like the Big Bang Theory that name was given by a detractor and it was adopted, until he got some sponsors and then spork decided it would be better to have a more friendly name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Right near the end of this video a chain ring collapses. They used the "test to destruction" method early on to find the bugs in the BUFC.
If this were true, then the cart would never "self start" as claimed. I have never seen a propeller-less cart moving significantly in the wind. Something has to get the contraption moving, what gets it moving if not the wind through the propeller?

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#19
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
The wheels always drive the propeller. The propeller never drives the wheels. In fact the wind "wants" to turn the propeller the other way.
Watch this video, it is one where they were testing the BUFC (Big Ugly F***ing Cart). Like the Big Bang Theory that name was given by a detractor and it was adopted, until he got some sponsors and then spork decided it would be better to have a more friendly name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Right near the end of this video a chain ring collapses. They used the "test to destruction" method early on to find the bugs in the BUFC.
This is exactly why the treadmill is not a good model for moving in the wind. The treadmill is always moving relative to the cart, not so for a cart self starting in the wind.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#20
Apr 20, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually no.
Since storing potential energy is illegal according to the rules they had a ratchet device so that the prop would freewheel rather than turning the wheels.
sprok knew he would be accused of cheating that way so he made sure it was written into the rules and he made sure that he followed them. He did not want his record ruined by an oversight.
That's stupid if you ask me, except in testing, storing energy is an advantage you wouldn't want to lose. Technically it isn't cheating either, unless the stored energy is in electricity to drive a motor. Captured energy is only energy that was exerted on it used back.
Just my POV though.

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