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1 comes in," agreed Oksana, a 22-year-old student from Riga and a Latvian non-citizen." 22 years old and not bothered to apply for citizenship! Disgraceful. Sadly there are many Russians like her who refuse to conform to the present free and democratic Latvia and want all that Latvia has to offer but not prepared to give anything in return. Think not what Latvia can do for you, but what you can do for Latvia! |
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2 What kind of stupid law is that!! And what is that terminology "non-citizen" anyway? If Latvia wants to be accepted as a proper country in EU, it will have to adopt some decency too, and respect its ethnic minorities. "Free and democratic Latvia" indeed... These Russians from Latvia are welcome here in UK where we are civilized. |
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2 If all living there by independence was granted citizenship many problems of criminality, drugs and trafficking could have been avoided, and the countries could be good countries to live in, instead they chose the way of suppressing as they themselves just had been relieved from. Shame... So this is really about time that EU recognise these people who are utterly unjust treated in Latvia and Estonia. |
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1 Big Dane - what about the LATVIANS who were utterly unjustly treated for 50 years by the Russian occupiers????????? The Russians in Latvia are the most arrogant people on earth - they refuse to speak latvian calling it a "silly language" - much like the asians in England who refuse to speak English - and i know - I used to live in Leicester where the white man is the ethnic minority!!!. If they do not like it here they can go home or as William wants they can go to England and leave Latvia for the people who want to live here and uphold the Latvian way of life that was denied them by the Russians |
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Judged:
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1 What do you mean 'illegal immigrants'? Russian came to the Baltic States when they were part of the Soviet Union. They came quite legally and settled there, and participated in the country's life. They should have been given Latvian nationality when Latvia became independant; that's what other countries do. And the Russians didn't occupy the Baltic States, they liberated them and rebuild them after the German invasion. And of course they wouldn't speak Latvian, they are not Latvian nationals, plus Russian was the official language of Soviet Union. What surprise me is that the Latvians were the most ardent pro-Soviet at the time of the revolution; even Lenin had a regiment of Latvian guards to protect him, and some Latvians troops were on the Communist side during the civil war in Russia. |
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Rigamax... a simple and relatively rule for living in harmony and to prosper, is to treat other people like you would like to be treated yourself... instead Latvia and Estonia, or at least the political majority of them, has chosen a way of punishing innocent people for atrocities they had nothing to do with, as I presume that you do agree, that the Russians now living in Latvia and Estonia, was not personally involved in the communistic suppression there...
So why should they be treated the way they are... and many of them even, by NOT choosing citizenship from the Russian Federation, has stated that they would like to be part of the new independent Latvia or Estonia... If the Russians back by independence time had been given equal rights as ethnic Lativans or Estonians, the language problem would have solved itself, as they then would have felt a part of the new country and learned the ways of that country... but by suppressing them and denying them their rights and political influence, they see that the country does not want them, and even consider them inferior... why then should they work on becoming part of such country... The only way now, is for "ethnic" Latvians and Estonians to reach out, and grant equal rights to everyone living in their country, and working together towards true democracy... then the language barrier will solve itself... but it will take courage to take such a step... it is much easier to blame the Russians for all bad things, and to punish and discriminate them, for something they was not even responsible for... |
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1 The only way now, is for "ethnic" Russians in Latvia and Estonia to stop owing allegiance to Putin and Moscow. How many of you russophiles writing in this forum have lived for any time in latvia? How many if you know at first hand the arrogance of the Russians in this country? You are all typical of the loonie left who think they know everything but in reality know absolute nothing! |
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Oh yes, I have lived for many years over there, and I have met many wonderful Latvians, Estonians and Russians, but I have also met many people who carry a lot of hatret in them, with no desire to reach out and create a better living for everybody in the country, and sadly most of the latter I have found amongst the "ethnic" Latvians and Estonians...
If the country and the political establishment would stop the unjust discrimination and grant everybody equal rights, almost everybody would work for the country, and there would be no need for turning to Putin or Moscow, but right now he seem to be the only one who cares about the Russians living in Latvia and Estonia... The only way to solve the problems is to build a society with mutual respect and of course, equal rights for everybody. |
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As long as Russian keep talking about how they "liberated" Latvia; as long as they refuse to admit that their country occupied and murdered thousands of Latvians; as long as Russians in latvia pay allegience to the KGB colonel in the Kremlin; ethnic Latvians will never accept them.
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What you are talking about is completely irrelevant. By joining EU (surely someone in the Latvian government must have read the rules), you have undertaken to provide equal human rights to anybody inside your borders. An EU country is forbidden to discriminate against citizen living in the country, moreover if said citizen have established residence, provided for the country (work and pay taxes), and declared that they are settled there. Not only their person, but also their property MUST be protected by law. By contraving these rules, Latvia (and other) are in flagrant breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, like it or not. Since Latvia asked to join EU, it MUST abide by its rules, and legislate/educate/enforce these rules on its citizen. The case of Russians having murdered Latvians in the past, or paying allegiance a foreign country now is irrelevant. If they have commited or commit a crime, take them to the criminal court. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. As for the claim of liberating Latvia, most historians agree that the SOVIET UNION liberated half of Europe from the facists; its army was composed of soldiers of all republics, Latvians included. I really can't see the problem with accepting that. Sometimes Rigamax, you have to move on. I live in a country populated by PLENTY of different ethnics whose ancestors fought the British, killed them, despise them, etc... That was in the past... people move on. Turks and Greeks, Armenians and Turks, Polish and Russians, Serbs and Croates, Muslims and Jews live here, work together and put their difference of the past aside. You cannot change the past, but improve for the future. |
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1 Well... no. Cuz you see, there is a law ( an international one) that says that we don't have to give them citizenship automaticly! because they moved here during an occupation. However the non-citizens who are born in Estonia during or after the occupation are automaticly given citizenship. If you are a non-citizen and you want to become an cityzen all you have to do is a simple little language test! It looks as if you realy don't know what liberating means... let me break it down for you. LIBERATING: Germans had occupied france, the the allied forces landed and cleand france from the nazis.. afther the war was over the allied armys left, they didn't start randomly killing and raping natives and they didn't force them to become the 51st state! There was no censorship, no massdeportation OCCUPATION: The Germans had occupied Estonia. The Red army comes in and drives the germans out, Meanwhile estonians put up theyr own democratic goverment, and declear Estonia independent and neutral. Russians respond by arresting/killing as many members of the new goverment as they can. then they put up a "puppet" goverment and declare Estonia as a part of the Soviet Union! Soldiers start looting houses and killing/raping nativs. And the fun doesn't stop there!!!NKVD starts depording people (mostly woman and cildren) to sibera and the Red Army decides to stick around for another 50 years! AND moust historians agree that the baltic states and many other regions were in fact! Occupied by soviet union heart warming, but irrelevant! You can't compare our problems. You see what realy pisses us off is that, the local russians who sometimes have lived here for more then 60 years have not learnd the local language, not even on 2 yr olds level! Some are not even able to make simple sentences like: where are the toilets? It shows that they don't have no respect for the nativs. And then they expect us to be thankful for what they did to us in 1940 to 1991 ?? They know nothing about our history and they think that there was no civilization, no education before they got here. The language test is easy (special when you have lived here for 17-60 years). i don't know exactly how thing are in Latvia, but that's how things are in Estonia I realy like Danes idea of a society with mutual respect and rights, and someday we will get there but it's going to take some time. |
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sorry about the grammar
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some estonian kid and Rigamax
Look, we know the history. Don't imagine we don't. I live in the US. The US never acknowledged Soviet sovereignty over the Baltic states; we always treated Soviet control over the Baltic states as an occupation. But the Soviets were brutal to everyone, even Russians; you were not a special case. Where I live, we have citizens -- not aliens but citizens -- who do not speak English, who know the history and culture of Mexico but not the US, and who celebrate Mexican holidays and ignore American ones. But they are CITIZENS! With all the rights and privileges and obligations of citizens. By what right are they citizens? They were born here. We do not require that they speak English or pass some test in history to become citizens. But all the laws are written in English and all courts conduct business in English. Everyone knows he can speak any language -- Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese, Tagalog, Polish, or Russian -- and live here. But he can only live well if he speaks English. As for the Russian-bloods among you pledging allegiance to Putin, I don't believe that. Putin has offered Russian citizenship to anyone in the Baltic states who can prove Russian blood and wants to return to Mother Russia. I have not seen reports about the border flooded with Russian-bloods taking his offer. You cannot afford to lose the Russian-bloods. Estonia's birthrate is 1.7. Latvia's is 1.8. Replacement rate is 2.1. If you deport all the Russian-bloods in your country, your economies collapse. What will be the effect of your suicidal policy? The young Russian-bloods will leave you for homes elsewhere in the EU. I know one 17 year-old Latvian girl of Russian descent who speaks Russian, Latvian, German, and English fluently. Why should she stay in her homeland and be mistreated when she can live well in Dublin, London, Berlin, or Vienna? In Texas, we have a saying: If enough people tell you you are a horse, you ought to get a saddle. A Dane, a Brit, and an American on this small forum have told you that your policy vis-a-vis the Russian-bloods is wrong, wrong, wrong. Get a saddle. |
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UK has never been occupied by a totalitarian state. In that respect britons do not understand the feelings of balts.
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When the Turks and Africans start showing up you'll be praying for the days when you only had to deal with Russians who won't learn Latvian.
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Your either ignorant of Latvian history or a communist but in case you didn't know, Latvians were much more sympathetic to the Germans compared to the Soviets. Many Latvians joined the Latvian Legion to fight the Judo-Bolsheviks. The so called "liberation" you speak of resulted in millions of Latvians being sent to Siberia. The Germans didn't terrorize the Latvian population and in fact, in 1945 when the Soviets were invading Latvia, thousands of people migrated to Germany. At NO TIME did people migrate to the USSR. As far as "rebuilding them" the most ugly buildings in Riga were built by the Soviets and most of them are falling apart now. |
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you are speaking of arrogance, while actually you are the one who is representing your ethnicity as unfriendly. You personally are a disgrace to your nation with all your hating and unwillingness to compromise. Russians never came to latvia, they were born there and deserve to have a valid passport. And if you know history of your own country, you should also know that when all Latvian population voted for independence - russian half voted "yes" as well only because they were PROMISSED CITIZENSHIP. then government just waved this promis. so if all russians voted "no" for independence, latvia would be another poor city on the outskirts of Russia..... |
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Judo-Bolsheviks? JUDO-BOLSHEVIKS??? Are you insane? The Latvian Legion was part of the Waffen SS, the military arm of the Nazi Party. The record is clear. Of all non-German SS units, only the Viking Division and the Ukraine Division performed well in combat. The others were used to police the local populations.(That is why the Serbs hate the Croats and the Slovenes; the Croats and the Slovenes raised two SS division that were used to police the Serbs.) Policing as practiced by the Nazis meant torture and execution. If Latvians truly preferred the Nazi occupation to the Russian, they did so out of ignorance. By the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Nazis sold the Baltic states to the Soviets. Worse, a third of all the deaths the Latvians suffered during WW2 came during the Nazi occupation -- Latvian Jews deported to extermination camps! I do not condemn the veterans of the Latvian Legion -- as long as they keep their Nazi mouths shut. They made a hard choice between two totalitarian regimes. There was no good choice. The Russian-bloods among you want to be Latvians. Their grandfathers were born in Russia, but they were born in Latvia. You promised them citizenship. Make good that promise. |
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Joined: Feb 5, 2007 Comments: 4 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS Estonian and latvian waffen-SS soldiers were only engaged in military operations against Soviet armed forces.The Western Allies recognized that the Baltic Legions were in no way connected to war crimes. refer to them as nazis is just wrong, why would eny of those man care for the nazi ideology? they didn't have much to choose from and it was no time to sit around. It's nice that you pointed out the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, for some reason, neuter the communist or nazi sympathisers like to talk about that. It's just shows the true face of these evil regimes. |
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"some estonian kid"
Estonian and latvian waffen-SS soldiers were only engaged in military operations against Soviet armed forces.The Western Allies recognized that the Baltic Legions were in no way connected to war crimes. The Wikipedia article you quote has a Discussion section <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Waffen-SS&g... ; that is longer than the original article and takes the article to task for errors. What follows is a quote from a Latvian who found that someone from his family served with the Waffen-SS Latvian legion (edited for length): "I discover that my ancestors has-been in Waffen-SS. My name is Edgar M. Milaskevics. I do not believe we need to judge person why was involved in WWII, it is in history. "Person Jazep Maceikevic (lather his change from Jazeps to Jânis to be more Latvian - unofficial) why lived in Rîga, Latvia have been order go to Waffen-SS. His was in WWII as Baltic-German Waffen-SS officer. "Conscription as “Volunteering”. At first the Germans wanted to win the war without any help. They used Latvians as willing auxiliaries only to perform police and paramilitary duties in the rear. But by the end of 1941 their initial war fortunes received severe setbacks, and they needed real help. Latvian willingness to volunteer, however, had worn off as the German policies became more and more coercive and it became clear that co-operation meant simply following German orders. "By 1942, patriotic propaganda and financial enticements were used to recruit Latvians into so-called “police battalions”, most of which became front-line units, but some were used at times for suppressive operations behind the lines. By 1943, after the debacle at Stalingrad, Germans desperately needed even more help, and by Hitler’s order of 10 February 1943, a “Latvian SS Volunteer Legion” was created as one of a number of such foreign legions, among which the largest was the Russian contingent. It was neither real “SS” nor “volunteer”. Hitler’s SS of elite guards and executors, adjudged as a criminal organization in Nuremberg, and was reserved for Germans only. The word “volunteer” was used as a devious device to avoid transgressing the 1907 Hague Convention’s rules against conscripting people of occupied countries. "Conscripts received notices that they were “drafted into the Latvian SS Volunteer Legion”. The term “Legion”, on the other hand, helped to create the false impression of a national force envisioned by some Latvian leaders. The Germans would have none of that: the Legion’s units were placed under higher German command and fought in various parts of the Eastern front. About 115,000 Latvian men were enlisted in various German military formations; only about 15% of them as true volunteers. "The Legion was engaged only in military operations against Soviet armed forces. After the war, the Western Allies recognized that the Legion was in no way connected to war crimes, but even today both ignorance and deliberate disinformation about the Latvian Legion abounds, especially as still spread by the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs." Mr Milaskevics's claim that the Latvian Legion engaged only in military operations against Soviet armed forces is contradicted by his prior assertion that the Germans used the Latvians to perform police and paramilitary duties in the rear. 70 000 Latvian Jews were deported to extermination camps. Given the history of the Waffen-SS in other countries, I find it literally incredible that they were not used in the elimination of Jews from Latvia. However, discussions of whether or not Estonians and Latvians conducted themselves honorably in the Waffen-SS is at best peripheral to the point of this post, and that is 'Will Estonia and Latvia grant the Russian-bloods among them the citizentship they promised when they became independent/expelled the Soviet occupation?' Make good your promise. |
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