Vouchers won't improve schools

Mar 18, 2011 Read more: The York Daily Record 21
There's a lot of talk these days about the possibility of a new school voucher program in Pennsylvania. Read more
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Jonathan

Austin, TX

#1 Mar 20, 2011
This is a pathetic article. He cites no studies because studies have shown that they increase outcomes for children. Shame on YDR for printing lies.
real FACTS

York, PA

#2 Mar 20, 2011
The data to support your 'all' and 'none' and 'don't work' comments Mr Chronister! This coming from whom?
In The Know

Silver Spring, MD

#3 Mar 20, 2011
Very disappointing comments from Mr. Chronister.

I don't begrudge the real estate business he is in.
His critics have torn into him over the years for that.

But it seems like the real estate industry wants to prop up the "public school industry" with its outrageous benefits and salaries.

They want to get rid of property taxes and replace them with sales taxes without addressing the outrageous salaries and benefits that exist in our public schools.

Shell gaming the public with a new tax for an old tax to get more money out of people's pockets isn't the answer.

Since the public schools waste money on big salaries and benefits perhaps it is time for school choice (demonized as "vouchers").

I would prefer my tax dollars go to schools that have lower salaries and don't build Taj Mahal facilities.

Wouldn't you????????
By the Way

Hershey, PA

#4 Mar 21, 2011
Did Steve Chronister graduate from York Catholic? York Catholic is not a public school. Interesting, isn't it?
American Nationalist

Red Lion, PA

#5 Mar 21, 2011
It seems to me that you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Chronister is part of the problem.
Classism

Lancaster, PA

#6 Mar 21, 2011
Chronister is interested in maintaining the status quo and segregating education by income level. Preserving private schools for his friends and family under the current system and trapping children from poor families in underperforming urban schools.
Remembers

Lancaster, PA

#7 Mar 21, 2011
Steve Chronister is the visionary who doesn't see value in funding public libraries because his family doesn't use them..
Bobby J

York, PA

#8 Mar 22, 2011
Published: Tuesday, February 22, 2011, 9:37 AM

By Thomas Ott, The Plain Dealer

The push is on to expand school voucher programs in Ohio, but new state data suggests that students who attend private schools with the help of taxpayer-funded vouchers don't necessarily fare better academically than the children they leave behind.

Cleveland public school students often outperformed voucher students on 2009-10 state proficiency tests, according to data from the Ohio Department of Education. Last year was the first time Cleveland voucher students were required to take the tests since the Cleveland program began in 1995.

Students in Educational Choice Scholarship Program, a newer voucher plan for other struggling districts in Ohio, have taken the tests for two years. Comparisons of 2009-10 data for other large cities shows that their public school students also scored better than voucher students in many cases.

High school comparisons are difficult because report cards segregate 10th- and 11th-grade results in the public schools; the voucher students are combined. But Cleveland third- and fourth-graders scored higher than the sample of voucher students in both reading and math. In the fifth through eighth grades, voucher students fared better by 3 to 8 percentage points in reading, but they trailed by up to 12 points in math. Neither group met state standards.

Mixed patterns also emerge in Akron, Canton, Columbus and Dayton. Elementary school students in the Cincinnati and Toledo district students outdid voucher students in almost every instance. The findings challenge assumptions about the benefits of vouchers, said Piet van Lier of Policy Matters Ohio, a nonprofit policy research group. He called for closer state scrutiny of the private schools that accept vouchers. "If you're significantly dependent on public money you should really be subject to stricter public accountability," van Lier said.
Bobby J

York, PA

#9 Mar 22, 2011
Please do your own independent research before buying into voucher programs. Chronister is right they don't work. There is study after study showing very little benefit with a huge administration cost and little accountability.
Bobby J

York, PA

#10 Mar 22, 2011
By Alan J. Borsuk, Journal Sentinel, Inc
March 26, 2009

The first research since the mid-1990s comparing the academic progress of students in Milwaukee's precedent-setting private school voucher program with students in Milwaukee Public Schools shows no major differences in success between the two groups.

The long-awaited report, along with a half dozen other research reports related to the voucher program and conducted by researchers mostly from the University of Arkansas, will be released Thursday at a breakfast hosted by the Public Policy Forum.

The findings come as the 20,000-student voucher program approaches a crossroads, with strong interest from Gov. Jim Doyle and Democrats who control the state Legislature in seeking to require voucher schools to follow many of the requirements of public schools. There are about 120 voucher schools, more than 80% of them religious.

Summarizing a comparison of how matched groups of voucher and MPS students did across two years of tests, the researchers wrote:

"The primary finding in all of these comparisons is that there is no overall statistically significant difference between MPCP (voucher) and MPS student achievement growth in either math or reading one year after they were carefully matched to each other."

A second study, which looked at broader, but not scientifically matched groups of MPS and voucher students, found that the percentages of fourth-graders in voucher schools who met the state's definition of proficiency in reading and math were lower than percentages for low-income MPS fourth-graders. For eighth-graders, the proficiency rates were about the same.
Remembers

Lancaster, PA

#11 Mar 22, 2011
Bobby J wrote:
"The primary finding in all of these comparisons is that there is no overall statistically significant difference between MPCP (voucher) and MPS student achievement growth in either math or reading one year after they were carefully matched to each other."
A second study, which looked at broader, but not scientifically matched groups of MPS and voucher students, found that the percentages of fourth-graders in voucher schools who met the state's definition of proficiency in reading and math were lower than percentages for low-income MPS fourth-graders. For eighth-graders, the proficiency rates were about the same.
Since vouchers cost taxpayers less than half the cost per pupil and attain similar academic results and have increased parental satisfaction why wouldn't we support vouchers as we look for ways to most efficiently educate children?

I saw the number of $15,000 per pupil quoted as being the amount that the YCSD has to spend if the governors proposed budget is passed. If we can attain similar results for 6-7,000$ per pupil with a voucher program and avoid future tax increases vouchers why wouldn't we offer school vouchers?
Duh

Lancaster, PA

#12 Mar 22, 2011
Because there wouldn't be enough jobs for union teachers.
Mike B

Moorestown, NJ

#13 Mar 23, 2011
I dunno where you saw 6-7K per student. Does that factor in the millions of dollars in administrative and beauracratic costs? Not to mention that voucher programs will be deemed unconstitutional in PA because of the necessary division between church and state. It's happened numerous times elsewhere.
Info

Lancaster, PA

#14 Mar 23, 2011
Mike B wrote:
I dunno where you saw 6-7K per student. Does that factor in the millions of dollars in administrative and beauracratic costs? Not to mention that voucher programs will be deemed unconstitutional in PA because of the necessary division between church and state. It's happened numerous times elsewhere.
The current proposal is for vouchers from the state using no local school property tax money be attached to the student and that students parents decide what school to send their child and that state subsidy for the child's education to. The amount of the voucher is only going to be the per pupil amount that the state subsidizes education in that students "home" district, there is no "new" spending proposed the state is currently writing these checks to local school districts and the voucher program will mean that those checks will now be sent to an alternate destination. You will need to look at your school districts budget to find that exact figure, I used the figure from my school district.

Vouchers are going to be given to low income families and the family will need to cover whatever portion of their childs tuition remains. This is a system that engages families and gives them a sense of ownership and direct involvement in their children's education. Some schools may offer other financial aid packages and some private schools may accept vouchers as payment in full for their tuition and make up the difference in their private fundraising activities but the end result for local property taxpayers should be a decreased burden.

Voucher programs like the one being currently considered in PA have survived legal challenge and is not similar to those that were overturned in FL and AZ. Our legislators have the advantage of being able to write their law so that it can take advantage of the legal precedents from the courts who have already heard similar cases.
Stan

York, PA

#15 Mar 23, 2011
"This is a system that engages families and gives them a sense of ownership and direct involvement in their children's education". Yea, right! Therein lies the problem, families that care!!! IF these families did THEIR job, loving/caring/nurturing; their children would have no problem regardless of where they attend school. Remember: "You cannot make chicken salad out of chicken $hit", even with vouchers. Parents, and most especially, STUDENTS (???) gotta' wanna'. If THEY (BOTH PARTIES) could care less about an education, nothing will change, PERIOD! READ, THEN RE-READ POSTS 8 and 10!!!
Man in Black

Sykesville, MD

#16 Mar 23, 2011
Info wrote:
<quoted text>
The current proposal is for vouchers from the state using no local school property tax money be attached to the student and that students parents decide what school to send their child and that state subsidy for the child's education to. The amount of the voucher is only going to be the per pupil amount that the state subsidizes education in that students "home" district, there is no "new" spending proposed the state is currently writing these checks to local school districts and the voucher program will mean that those checks will now be sent to an alternate destination. You will need to look at your school districts budget to find that exact figure, I used the figure from my school district.
Vouchers are going to be given to low income families and the family will need to cover whatever portion of their childs tuition remains. This is a system that engages families and gives them a sense of ownership and direct involvement in their children's education. Some schools may offer other financial aid packages and some private schools may accept vouchers as payment in full for their tuition and make up the difference in their private fundraising activities but the end result for local property taxpayers should be a decreased burden.
Voucher programs like the one being currently considered in PA have survived legal challenge and is not similar to those that were overturned in FL and AZ. Our legislators have the advantage of being able to write their law so that it can take advantage of the legal precedents from the courts who have already heard similar cases.
No matter what you are still talking about peoples tax dollars going to faith based schools. You can bet it will go all the way up to the Supreme Court before it is done.
mah balls

Alexandria, VA

#17 Mar 23, 2011
Yea, he knows so much about helping the kids and helping the schools...act like you don't cheat you big phony!
Man in Black

Sykesville, MD

#18 Mar 23, 2011
Info wrote:
<quoted text>

Vouchers are going to be given to low income families and the family will need to cover whatever portion of their childs tuition remains.
So yet again the middle class foots the bill? What happens when these low income families can no longer afford the pay the balance? What happens when all the good private schools see the drop in overall performance of their school?(remember when you average it goes both ways up and down) What happens when the private schools decide the trouble makers don't "fit" in their schools? What happens when private schools discover they need to pay out more for special needs?

The answer to all the above is "send them back to the public schools"
But wait! we have crippled the public schools! Now what?

Will private schools be mandated to accept students they normaly would not?

looks good on paper but in practice....?
Man in Black

Sykesville, MD

#19 Mar 23, 2011
IF you are going to do this do it all the way. Drop public schools completely. Require parents to send their kids to school up to 16 years old. Parents pay for the education. NO PUBLIC FUNDING. That way parents have "ownership" Taxes will be greatly reduced. Lets remove education from the government! Think of all the money saved. Taxes reduced! Can't afford the schooling? DON'T HAVE THE BABY.(unique concept practice by many of the middle class for years)

Go hard or go home. If vouchers are better then removing public funded education is even better.
lol

Lancaster, PA

#20 Mar 23, 2011
wow the PSEA trolls must have eaten their wheaties this morning.

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