Political, legal fights over school vouchers' fate

Apr 8, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Star-Telegram.com

Students like Delano Coffy are at the heart of brewing political fights and court battles over whether public dollars should go to school vouchers to help make private schools more affordable.

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“Equality for ALL”

Since: Jul 10

Massachusetts

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#1
Apr 8, 2012
 

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Will people, especially politicians and the media, please stop using the term voucher when referring to these type of programs. So long as these programs not being available to ALL students, not just students from select public schools, they are not vouchers.

And here is the problem with a true voucher program.

A Voucher program should be open to all of the students, including those students who have already opted out of the public school system. If the voucher is worth $4000 (a low figure that would exclude most private schools) and say that there were 10,000 students already opting out of the public school system in the state, that would be $40,000,000 going towards just those students before taking care of even one student from the public schools.
Your Ex

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#2
Apr 8, 2012
 

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NO public funds for private
usually religious
schools!
If you want your kid to go to
Jeebus School
get a better job
or indoctrinate him at home
yourself.
omg

Fishers, IN

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#3
Apr 8, 2012
 

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Your Ex wrote:
NO public funds for private
usually religious
schools!
If you want your kid to go to
Jeebus School
get a better job
or indoctrinate him at home
yourself.
Better yet, let's pull the plug on the endless drain on the taxpayers and let people use their own money for whatever school they want. People should cover the costs to educate their children and then there wouldn't be any argument. Too poor? You get the govt. assistance version, like food stamps. There is so much waste in public schools....new equipment sitting in cabinets, grant money for stupid programs that never get implemented, marble walls,lazy tenured teachers, wasteful marshmallow fluff programs, and so on. Attend public schools and pay a user tax and pay for transportation or provide your own. Eliminate music, art, gym and let the students pay extra for extracurricular activities. Less taxes, more disposable income except people can spend it the way they want, not the way the govt. wants. Of course the liberal elite will have none of that! They want power and control. This will lead to a revolt especially when obama gets another four years. The dollar will collapse first and then the economy tank much like Greece. There will be riots in the street for more programs even though the money is gone. That's what you have when you depend on someone else to give you something. Education is one example because just about everyone expects this and yet there really is a better way to educate Americans and yet that will never happen because most people, including republicans depend too much on the govt. They don't have the sense to realize changes are necessary or the demise of the country is inevitable. Romney and Ron Paul could make a winning combo, so long as Romney will run this country like an efficient and profitable corp. Bring the two philosophies together, get rid of the prolifers and maybe there will be a chance for this country.
Sheik Yerbouti

Doylestown, PA

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#4
Apr 8, 2012
 

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Eliminate music and art??!! Are you nuts? These are essential parts of western civilization unlike silly games and gym classes that have no real cultural value. I would hate to live in a world without music and art but I could case less about silly games!
omg

Fishers, IN

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#5
Apr 8, 2012
 

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Sheik Yerbouti wrote:
Eliminate music and art??!! Are you nuts? These are essential parts of western civilization unlike silly games and gym classes that have no real cultural value. I would hate to live in a world without music and art but I could case less about silly games!
Who said it would be a world without art and music? Do you think all the great artists in history became so because they were required by govt to take classes in music and art? No reason to expect the public to subsidize your art and music lessons. Music and art can easily be incorporated into a basic education rather than having some useless overpaid teacher waste time and money teaching a bunch of uninterested kids. Want your kid to play the tuba? No one should expect their neighbors to pay for those lessons. No one should have kids if they can't afford to educate them. No one should complain if they are given a no frill govt education.
Part of the reason education is not valued here is because it is 'free'. Many parents don't value what is free.
Your Ex

Madison, WI

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#6
Apr 8, 2012
 

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omg wrote:
<quoted text>
Better yet, let's pull the plug on the endless drain on the taxpayers and let people use their own money for whatever school they want. People should cover the costs to educate their children and then there wouldn't be any argument. Too poor? You get the govt. assistance version, like food stamps. There is so much waste in public schools....new equipment sitting in cabinets, grant money for stupid programs that never get implemented, marble walls,lazy tenured teachers, wasteful marshmallow fluff programs, and so on. Attend public schools and pay a user tax and pay for transportation or provide your own. Eliminate music, art, gym and let the students pay extra for extracurricular activities. Less taxes, more disposable income except people can spend it the way they want, not the way the govt. wants. Of course the liberal elite will have none of that! They want power and control. This will lead to a revolt especially when obama gets another four years. The dollar will collapse first and then the economy tank much like Greece. There will be riots in the street for more programs even though the money is gone. That's what you have when you depend on someone else to give you something. Education is one example because just about everyone expects this and yet there really is a better way to educate Americans and yet that will never happen because most people, including republicans depend too much on the govt. They don't have the sense to realize changes are necessary or the demise of the country is inevitable. Romney and Ron Paul could make a winning combo, so long as Romney will run this country like an efficient and profitable corp. Bring the two philosophies together, get rid of the prolifers and maybe there will be a chance for this country.
Ann Rand thinks
You are ideal
Wife material.

Since: May 11

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#7
Apr 9, 2012
 

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omg wrote:
<quoted text>
Better yet, let's pull the plug on the endless drain on the taxpayers and let people use their own money for whatever school they want. People should cover the costs to educate their children and then there wouldn't be any argument. Too poor? You get the govt. assistance version, like food stamps. There is so much waste in public schools....new equipment sitting in cabinets, grant money for stupid programs that never get implemented, marble walls,lazy tenured teachers, wasteful marshmallow fluff programs, and so on.
Yep. I'm tired of paying to educate other people's kids according to property tax rates. I only had one child in school, while my neighbor had four. They paid the same amount of school tax as I did. How is THAT fair?

Now I have no kids in school at all and I'm still paying the same amount in school tax. I don't mind contributing some, but shouldn't the people with the most children be paying the most?
omg

Fishers, IN

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Apr 9, 2012
 

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PayThat CEO wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep. I'm tired of paying to educate other people's kids according to property tax rates. I only had one child in school, while my neighbor had four. They paid the same amount of school tax as I did. How is THAT fair?
Now I have no kids in school at all and I'm still paying the same amount in school tax. I don't mind contributing some, but shouldn't the people with the most children be paying the most?
Absolutely, it's time to revisit all entitlement programs including education. It's time for the able to cover their own transportation and make larger contributions towards their children's education. The socialists have failed in this endeavor because Americans are no longer the best and the brightest. Property tax rates are the love of a socialists life as taxes increase along with the value of a property. Why not steal from the property owner who has worked harder to buy a bigger house or larger piece of land? Chances are great, the property owner wouldn't send his kids to the crappy public school...leaving more room for the mooches and degenerates of society.

Releasing the federal govt. from education is a start. Demanding families pay a user tax to send their kids to public school should be the beginning of a much needed overhaul. Property taxes should be capped and everyone taxed at the same rate. The socialists insist on equality and so do I. Let's start with the tax code.

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#10
Apr 9, 2012
 

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omg wrote:
<quoted text>Absolutely, it's time to revisit all entitlement programs including education. It's time for the able to cover their own transportation and make larger contributions towards their children's education. The socialists have failed in this endeavor because Americans are no longer the best and the brightest. Property tax rates are the love of a socialists life as taxes increase along with the value of a property. Why not steal from the property owner who has worked harder to buy a bigger house or larger piece of land? Chances are great, the property owner wouldn't send his kids to the crappy public school...leaving more room for the mooches and degenerates of society.
Releasing the federal govt. from education is a start. Demanding families pay a user tax to send their kids to public school should be the beginning of a much needed overhaul. Property taxes should be capped and everyone taxed at the same rate. The socialists insist on equality and so do I. Let's start with the tax code.
I don't mind paying property tax for fire and police service, road maintainence, libraries, parks, etc. It's called a community for a reason.

I don't even mind paying some towards education. But I shouldn't have to pay the same rate in school taxes as someone who has 4 or 5 kids in school when I have no kids at all.

I see this as a tax that benefits reproduction. Taxes and child credits are there to encourage people to have kids. Those who are childless or who are reproductively responsible are given no breaks whatsoever.

This isn't a "socialist" ideal. This is a right-wing, religious ideal.
Sheik Yerbouti

Doylestown, PA

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Apr 9, 2012
 

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omg wrote:
<quoted text>Who said it would be a world without art and music? Do you think all the great artists in history became so because they were required by govt to take classes in music and art? No reason to expect the public to subsidize your art and music lessons. Music and art can easily be incorporated into a basic education rather than having some useless overpaid teacher waste time and money teaching a bunch of uninterested kids. Want your kid to play the tuba? No one should expect their neighbors to pay for those lessons. No one should have kids if they can't afford to educate them. No one should complain if they are given a no frill govt education.
Part of the reason education is not valued here is because it is 'free'. Many parents don't value what is free.
It is because of scum like you that this nation sinks lower into cultural degeneracy! Music and art have been a part of the curriculum in every modern civilized society! Take your sociopathic ayn rand bullshit elsewhere; preferably to another country!
omfg

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#12
Apr 9, 2012
 

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PayThat CEO wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't mind paying property tax for fire and police service, road maintainence, libraries, parks, etc. It's called a community for a reason.
I don't even mind paying some towards education. But I shouldn't have to pay the same rate in school taxes as someone who has 4 or 5 kids in school when I have no kids at all.
I see this as a tax that benefits reproduction. Taxes and child credits are there to encourage people to have kids. Those who are childless or who are reproductively responsible are given no breaks whatsoever.
This isn't a "socialist" ideal. This is a right-wing, religious ideal.
I agree with you somewhat in that everyone should contribute towards the community......we may disagree on how much.

Our govt. ignores the taxpayers because we have little say in how much money is stolen from us. Most taxpayers would prefer to pay less taxes and they would be happy to accept less govt.'services' in return. Unfortunately, no one has listened and the deficit has been growing.

I have a hard time believing all conservatives want large families. Most conservatives want to live within their means and they put off having kids until they can afford them....have smaller families or even decide to not have kids at all. So forget for a moment about the conservative/liberal stereotypes and consider this:

1. I am a conservative and I very much oppose big families as they are a drain on our resources.
2. I think it is irresponsible and selfish when people have beyond 3 kids.
3.People are free to decide how many kids they may have. I believe in this protected right.
4. I do think there should be strict rules and consequences for those who have kids they can't afford because the taxpayers are affected by this added burden.
5. I am also in agreement on number of students per family, per school and it's impact on the taxpayers. A user tax should be imposed on every student attending a govt school. Let families choose their schools in order for competition to weed out the weak teachers and inferior administrations. I knew someone who had 8 kids and btched at a school board meeting because she felt book rental fees should be waved because it was a financial hardship for large families! This is so wrong on so many levels. She never thought to consider the hardship she imposed on the taxpayers in the district who were forced to educate her brats. And yes, they were total brats because half of them were bullies and trouble makers and the other half were disruptive in class. Mommy dearest should have closed her legs and planned better so she could afford to raise her kids rather than scream for a handout.

This country has become a nation of whiners and crybabies. As govt. grows so does dependence. We are on the verge of becoming another Greece. Isn't it sad the dependents were screaming for govt services as the country fell into financial ruin?

Since: May 11

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#13
Apr 10, 2012
 
omfg wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with you somewhat in that everyone should contribute towards the community......we may disagree on how much.
Our govt. ignores the taxpayers because we have little say in how much money is stolen from us. Most taxpayers would prefer to pay less taxes and they would be happy to accept less govt.'services' in return. Unfortunately, no one has listened and the deficit has been growing.
I have a hard time believing all conservatives want large families. Most conservatives want to live within their means and they put off having kids until they can afford them....have smaller families or even decide to not have kids at all. So forget for a moment about the conservative/liberal stereotypes and consider this:
I'm NOT a conservative and I live WELL within my means, so please don't believe it's only conservatives who believe in personal responsibility.

There are those who think each American should become a little island, separate from each other, doing nothing for others, abandoning the idea of society and community and nation. I'm not sure I agree with that.

First and foremost we are a nation. That should come before PARTY and political idealogy. The Nazi's put party before country, and it worries me that I'm seeing something similar in the U.S.
Second, we are a society. For better or worse, we are who we are. We complain about our society a lot, but we don't really do anything to change it because none of us wants to be put upon.

Truth is, NONE of us wants to change. We want to do as we please, but when our actions create trouble we point fingers at others. We all want our rights, even when those rights cause more harm than good.

We want children to grow up educated and productive, yet education isn't at the top of our country's priority list. We want everyone to be healthy and well, but we hate the idea of making sure everyone has access to healthcare.

We ahbor the violence in our culture, yet we have created a uncompassionate nation so full of hate and malevolence that how could we be anything but violent?

On the flip side, we happily support war to the tune of trillions of dollars. We overlook all that is given away in foreign aid (much of it military aid). We support politicians that are so far removed from real life they haven't set foot in a grocery store in 20 years.

Exactly what do we get for our tax dollars? And let's face it, taxes are NEVER going away. EVER. Exactly what should we get? Should we place war over the needs of our people? We always have. It's been that way all my life. What does the government give us in return for what we give to it?

Remember communist Russia? It taxed its citizens to death to support it's military because it lived in constant fear of the rest of the world. The majority of Russia's people had nothing. Are we in the U.S. heading in the same direction?

A strong society builds a strong nation. I'm not saying give everyone everything; but neither should we become myopic and believe that our country's success lies in being disjointed, uncaring and unwilling to work together for our own common good.
omfg

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#14
Apr 10, 2012
 

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Sheik Yerbouti wrote:
<quoted text>
It is because of scum like you that this nation sinks lower into cultural degeneracy! Music and art have been a part of the curriculum in every modern civilized society! Take your sociopathic ayn rand bullshit elsewhere; preferably to another country!
Aw, does the little tutti fruity get indignant because taxpayers are saying they've had enough paying for your urine on a Kotex 'masterpieces'? You can have all the art and music you want....just don't expect taxpayers to fund it much longer. You lazy pos, pay for your kid's music lessons and quit mooching off people who earn an honest living.
omfg

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#15
Apr 10, 2012
 

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PayThat CEO wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm NOT a conservative and I live WELL within my means, so please don't believe it's only conservatives who believe in personal responsibility.
There are those who think each American should become a little island, separate from each other, doing nothing for others, abandoning the idea of society and community and nation. I'm not sure I agree with that.
First and foremost we are a nation. That should come before PARTY and political idealogy. The Nazi's put party before country, and it worries me that I'm seeing something similar in the U.S.
Second, we are a society. For better or worse, we are who we are. We complain about our society a lot, but we don't really do anything to change it because none of us wants to be put upon.
Truth is, NONE of us wants to change. We want to do as we please, but when our actions create trouble we point fingers at others. We all want our rights, even when those rights cause more harm than good.
We want children to grow up educated and productive, yet education isn't at the top of our country's priority list. We want everyone to be healthy and well, but we hate the idea of making sure everyone has access to healthcare.
We ahbor the violence in our culture, yet we have created a uncompassionate nation so full of hate and malevolence that how could we be anything but violent?
On the flip side, we happily support war to the tune of trillions of dollars. We overlook all that is given away in foreign aid (much of it military aid). We support politicians that are so far removed from real life they haven't set foot in a grocery store in 20 years.
Exactly what do we get for our tax dollars? And let's face it, taxes are NEVER going away. EVER. Exactly what should we get? Should we place war over the needs of our people? We always have. It's been that way all my life. What does the government give us in return for what we give to it?
Remember communist Russia? It taxed its citizens to death to support it's military because it lived in constant fear of the rest of the world. The majority of Russia's people had nothing. Are we in the U.S. heading in the same direction?
A strong society builds a strong nation. I'm not saying give everyone everything; but neither should we become myopic and believe that our country's success lies in being disjointed, uncaring and unwilling to work together for our own common good.
You sound very young because without a decent defense, there would be no country to enjoy our freedom in. Without a free country, everything else is moot. Should we support the world and fight other people's battles for our own political gain? Depends on how well you understand the game of chess.Should we step in a war that is impossible to win such as was in Vietnam and all the wars in the middle east? Probably not although it's always easy to play arm chair general. Because of our debt, we should have thought about our involvement in the middle east after Bush left office. It would have been an excellent time to transition out but obama didn't. Socialism is not free because it takes from one group and gives to another. Redistribution of wealth is not American and it never has been.
I believe charity among Americans is strong but currently it is entirely too punitive.

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#16
Apr 11, 2012
 
omfg wrote:
<quoted text>You sound very young because without a decent defense, there would be no country to enjoy our freedom in. Without a free country, everything else is moot. Should we support the world and fight other people's battles for our own political gain? Depends on how well you understand the game of chess.Should we step in a war that is impossible to win such as was in Vietnam and all the wars in the middle east? Probably not although it's always easy to play arm chair general. Because of our debt, we should have thought about our involvement in the middle east after Bush left office. It would have been an excellent time to transition out but obama didn't. Socialism is not free because it takes from one group and gives to another. Redistribution of wealth is not American and it never has been.
I believe charity among Americans is strong but currently it is entirely too punitive.
Thank you for saying I sound young. Wish that were the case. I'll venture to say I'm probably older than you because I've seen enough years go by to know that, as Americans, we're screwed every which way possible and we're so damn dumb we bend over and let it keep happening.

I also am old enough to know that this idea of every-man-is-an-island is dangerous for our country, devastating for our society and will eventually divide us in ways we never thought possible. We're already divided more now that I ever remember in my more than half century in this world. I've never seen a time when Americans have been more hateful, more uncompassionate, more selfish or more self-centered. I don't even know this country anymore. It's not the America I grew up in. I don't even recognize it.

With age, what I recogize the most is that through ALL the political administrations I've seen, each and every one done things that have done harm to this country. Yet, WE, as the people of the nation, fight each other rather than the cause of all our grief. We're afraid of our government, so we take our anger out on each other rather than make demands of the people and system we pay dearly to do for US.

Our government OWES us because we pay into it. By God, I want something in return other than wars and bailouts. Everyone else (and maybe they're younger than I am) seem to want to give the government their money and then gripe if it's used to help the citizens of our nation. But they say nothing when hundreds if millions of dollars are given to a foreign country.

Problem with me is I've lived too long. I don't understand this country anymore.
omfg

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#18
Apr 11, 2012
 
PayThat CEO wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for saying I sound young. Wish that were the case. I'll venture to say I'm probably older than you because I've seen enough years go by to know that, as Americans, we're screwed every which way possible and we're so damn dumb we bend over and let it keep happening.
I also am old enough to know that this idea of every-man-is-an-island is dangerous for our country, devastating for our society and will eventually divide us in ways we never thought possible. We're already divided more now that I ever remember in my more than half century in this world. I've never seen a time when Americans have been more hateful, more uncompassionate, more selfish or more self-centered. I don't even know this country anymore. It's not the America I grew up in. I don't even recognize it.
With age, what I recogize the most is that through ALL the political administrations I've seen, each and every one done things that have done harm to this country. Yet, WE, as the people of the nation, fight each other rather than the cause of all our grief. We're afraid of our government, so we take our anger out on each other rather than make demands of the people and system we pay dearly to do for US.
Our government OWES us because we pay into it. By God, I want something in return other than wars and bailouts. Everyone else (and maybe they're younger than I am) seem to want to give the government their money and then gripe if it's used to help the citizens of our nation. But they say nothing when hundreds if millions of dollars are given to a foreign country.
Problem with me is I've lived too long. I don't understand this country anymore.
We the people ARE the government....although that's what it's supposed to be. I'd like to release the hold govt. has on me because obama is bankrupting the United States. Ideologies may sound nice on paper but without solvency, what do you have?

Imagine the farmer who has two fine horses to plow his fields. They do an excellent job covering his expenses, so he decides to enjoy a more lavish life and in order to cover those added expenses, he jobs out his plowing. Soon his horses are plowing ten fields...twenty fields. They become sick and exhausted...the farmer makes a few small cuts in his lifestyle but eventually the horses are unable to even plow the farmer's field. The farmer looks for other horses but they are all dying out from being overworked all over the country. The farmers relied so much on the horses for their survival, they all starved the next winter because they didn't have enough time to figure out an alternative. Romney-Paul

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#20
Apr 19, 2012
 
DaveinMass wrote:
And here is the problem with a true voucher program.
A Voucher program should be open to all of the students, including those students who have already opted out of the public school system. If the voucher is worth $4000 (a low figure that would exclude most private schools) and say that there were 10,000 students already opting out of the public school system in the state, that would be $40,000,000 going towards just those students before taking care of even one student from the public schools.
We could have an income phase out for voucher eligibility.

Or, with high income people starting to get vouchers, they can afford higher taxes to pay for the vouchers.

You imply that $40M is going to break the bank. That depends on the state budget. Instead, you should look at the cost on a per student basis.

We should not discriminate against those who have opted out of the public school system.

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#21
Apr 19, 2012
 
Your Ex wrote:
NO public funds for private
usually religious
schools!
If you want your kid to go to
Jeebus School
get a better job
or indoctrinate him at home
yourself.
We could had regulation to prohibit religious schools from taking vouchers.

Since: Apr 12

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#22
Apr 19, 2012
 
omg wrote:
<quoted text>
Too poor? You get the govt. assistance version, like food stamps.
The food stamp program is a voucher system.

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#23
Apr 19, 2012
 
Sheik Yerbouti wrote:
Eliminate music and art??!! Are you nuts?
With a voucher system, parents choose the school. They choose one with or without music and art. Or maybe a school gives them the choice of whether or not their student takes music and art.

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