Voucher results mixed

On the whole, Ohio students who used tax-funded vouchers to attend private schools last school year did no better on state tests than public-school students. Full Story
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Paul Lambert

Dublin, OH

#1 Sep 23, 2010
Entirely the wrong way to the look at this. The question is whether the kids who attended the charter schools are doing better than they were in the public schools.
Disgusted

Columbus, OH

#2 Sep 23, 2010
How about a study about violence in the public schools verses 'voucher students' schools?

Then tell me if the couple of points is worth it.
SuLee

Columbus, OH

#3 Sep 23, 2010
Think how many books CPS could buy if they had their voucher money back! How many up-to-date computers they could purchase?

I am against the voucher system altogether. If you want your kid to go to a private or parochial school, then you need to pony up the tuition money yourself.

I am so sick of hearing how bad CPS's are. Granted, some are, but continuing the ever-draining voucher system is only going to make them worse. If we want CPS to improve, then the voucher system needs to be ended,
ranatalus

United States

#4 Sep 23, 2010
Saying "kids in private schools do no better" is kind of misleading. Did anyone bother to look at the fact that, with the exception of the change from 7th to 8th grade in reading, every year the gap shrank until private school kids were doing better?
Why Are We Doing This

Richton Park, IL

#5 Sep 23, 2010
Folks, the data demonstrates that a parent deciding to use a voucher for their child is no better off, from an academic standpoint, than a parent that decided to keep their child in a public school. This begs the question: WHY ARE WE (THE TAXPAYERS) ALLOWING A VOUCHER PROGRAM TO CONTINUE?

What really annoys me about this is that the voucher people have been and countinue to mislead poor parents about the supposed virtues of vouchers. There is no guarantee that the value of the voucher will correspond with the tuition needed to send a child to a decent private school. So a poor parent gets a voucher and their choices of schools is limited to those that have mislead them into believing that a good education can be provided at a private school that accepts the voucher (alone) and no other tuition dollars.

Finally, if vouchers were so popular, why did they fail in the voting booths in California (birth place of the Charter School movement) and in Michigan? I believe that if vouchers were put on the ballot hear, in Ohio, they would fail too.
ramseyjames

Bellefontaine, OH

#6 Sep 23, 2010
14,000 students are using vouchers to attend a parochial or private school on the taxpayer's dime. > And you can bet that the the people operating these PRIVATE businesses are raking in plenty of taxpayer dollars!
Why Are We Doing This

Richton Park, IL

#7 Sep 23, 2010
What people forget is that while some Charter Schools have made significant strides, there results (as a category of education options) haven't been good. The data from the US Department of Education has shown that the only Charter Schools that have consistently demonstrated academic progress and facility management, beyond that of conventional public schools, are those supported by wealthy benefactors.

Absolutely, if a Charter School is supported by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Bill Gates, Andre Agassi, Wynton Marsallis, Oprah or some other wealthy person or celeberty there will be consistent results. This begs the question, why are the wealthy using public money to finance their own academic projects? As for the other Charter Schools? OK, the academic results, with some exceptions, aren't great. Moreover, its been well documented that many Charter Schools have staffing turnover problems, building/facility management problems and curriculum problems beyond those of conventional public schools. Now, to be clear, conventional public schools have their problems too. Nevertheless, the leadership of the conventional public school is accountable to the voters where Charter Schools are not. In effect, Charter Schools are an experiment on the public dime. This is wrong!
Paul Lambert wrote:
Entirely the wrong way to the look at this. The question is whether the kids who attended the charter schools are doing better than they were in the public schools.
Public Fools

Richton Park, IL

#8 Sep 23, 2010
Folks, one thing the voucher fans have failed to address is; what happens if a parent decides to use a voucher to send their child to a school that has either a poor academic record or worse, a mission that deviates from acceptable standards and/or ethics of society?

To be specific, it is entirely conceivable that a parent could use a voucher to send their child to a school opened by the KKK or pedifiles. True, these may be extreme examples. Nevertheless, I'm not interested in having public money being used to support institions that are not subject to the scrutney of the voters. The mentality of the voucher parent may be "Its my voucher and I'll send my child to the school that I've selected, period!" However, that parent is using public money and thus, the voters should determine where that money goes.
Rockne

United States

#9 Sep 23, 2010
The only fair comparison is to match "head to head" a student who is using a voucher with the former classmates she left behind. In other words, let's look specifically at the students only at the 47 failing schools, and extract from the statitics the students at the non-failing schools.

In this context, the overall averages mean little because there is such a wide variation in effectiveness even within the CPS.
Sarah

Columbus, OH

#10 Sep 23, 2010
Please remember: vouchers can only be used at private schools, not charter schools. Charter schools do not have tuition costs, and private schools in Ohio are not for-profit entities.
Dude

Columbus, OH

#11 Sep 23, 2010
Unfortunately, many of these "voucher" kids would perform poorly no matter what school environment. Stressing the importance of education starts with the parent(s). If the parents are stressing it, the child will perform well no matter what the setting. Again, when the question is about children, the solution that is never presented is represented in their parents.
Parent

Bronx, NY

#12 Sep 23, 2010
Dude wrote:
Unfortunately, many of these "voucher" kids would perform poorly no matter what school environment. Stressing the importance of education starts with the parent(s). If the parents are stressing it, the child will perform well no matter what the setting. Again, when the question is about children, the solution that is never presented is represented in their parents.
One type of educational setting does not work for all children. Some need smaller classes & individual attention, some need a safer environment free from bullying and violence, some need more emphasis on core studies and less emphasis on extracurriculars, some even thrive on (gasp) a moral & value filled education. All things private schools deliver better than public schools.
Parent

Bronx, NY

#14 Sep 23, 2010
You public school folks want parents to have more accountability in their child's education in the public schools. The parent should then be empowered to make choices, good and bad, about what is best for their own child's educational needs. Can't have it both ways. That is a decision a parent should make--after all it is their child who lives with the consequences.
Public Fools wrote:
Folks, one thing the voucher fans have failed to address is; what happens if a parent decides to use a voucher to send their child to a school that has either a poor academic record or worse, a mission that deviates from acceptable standards and/or ethics of society?
To be specific, it is entirely conceivable that a parent could use a voucher to send their child to a school opened by the KKK or pedifiles. True, these may be extreme examples. Nevertheless, I'm not interested in having public money being used to support institions that are not subject to the scrutney of the voters. The mentality of the voucher parent may be "Its my voucher and I'll send my child to the school that I've selected, period!" However, that parent is using public money and thus, the voters should determine where that money goes.
Mom

Columbus, OH

#15 Sep 23, 2010
Why Are We Doing This wrote:
. The data from the US Department of Education has shown that the only Charter Schools that have consistently demonstrated academic progress and facility management, beyond that of conventional public schools, are those supported by wealthy benefactors.<quoted text>
What data are you referring to?
My child attends a nonprofit charter school (for kids with autism) rated Excellent by ODE and where the kids are exceeding all educational expectations, but it does not have a wealthy benefactor. Just wondering where you got your information from.
Voice of Reason

Columbus, OH

#16 Sep 23, 2010
SuLee wrote:
Think how many books CPS could buy if they had their voucher money back! How many up-to-date computers they could purchase?
I am against the voucher system altogether. If you want your kid to go to a private or parochial school, then you need to pony up the tuition money yourself.
I am so sick of hearing how bad CPS's are. Granted, some are, but continuing the ever-draining voucher system is only going to make them worse. If we want CPS to improve, then the voucher system needs to be ended,
Did you know that CPS actually receives MORE money per pupil because of the voucher program? How, you ask? Because local funds STAY with the public schools even for those voucher students who leave. The voucher stipend is considerably less than what the students receive as a public school student. The state school funds are not being "drained", they are just being reallocated so parents have a choice of where to send their kids.

It would be nice if anyone whose child was languishing in a failing public school could just "pony up the cash" to get them out. Say that to a single mom struggling to raise her kids on minimum wage. Our kids are our future and many of our public schools have failed them. At least vouchers give them hope.
Voice of Reason

Columbus, OH

#17 Sep 23, 2010
ramseyjames wrote:
14,000 students are using vouchers to attend a parochial or private school on the taxpayer's dime. > And you can bet that the the people operating these PRIVATE businesses are raking in plenty of taxpayer dollars!
You do realize that kids attending public schools are on the taxpayer's dime, right?

Vouchers just give parents the choice of where to use that tax money.
art

Cromwell, CT

#18 Sep 23, 2010
Was there a typo? in the headline. IN 8th grade which is the end of grammar/jr. high the voucher students did significantly better in reading and math. While in the interim steps it was closer the end result is the exact opposite of the headline. Very strange
Voice of Reason

Columbus, OH

#19 Sep 23, 2010
Why Are We Doing This wrote:
What people forget is that while some Charter Schools have made significant strides, there results (as a category of education options) haven't been good. The data from the US Department of Education has shown that the only Charter Schools that have consistently demonstrated academic progress and facility management, beyond that of conventional public schools, are those supported by wealthy benefactors.
Absolutely, if a Charter School is supported by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Bill Gates, Andre Agassi, Wynton Marsallis, Oprah or some other wealthy person or celeberty there will be consistent results. This begs the question, why are the wealthy using public money to finance their own academic projects? As for the other Charter Schools? OK, the academic results, with some exceptions, aren't great. Moreover, its been well documented that many Charter Schools have staffing turnover problems, building/facility management problems and curriculum problems beyond those of conventional public schools. Now, to be clear, conventional public schools have their problems too. Nevertheless, the leadership of the conventional public school is accountable to the voters where Charter Schools are not. In effect, Charter Schools are an experiment on the public dime. This is wrong!
<quoted text>
First of all, the article is talking about vouchers, not charter schools, so whether tax funds are going to the voucher program should not be based on charter school performance.

Second, while your argument about public control over school leadership seems valid, the leadership itself has very little control over the schools because of curriculum constraints and the teachers union. Public schools have very little flexibility when it comes to choosing curriculum and making decisions based teacher performance. Charter schools, however, do have that flexibility. If they do well by the students, they blossom. If they fail, then they lose students and close shop. I'd rather have a system where there are opportunities to fail or blossom (charter schools) rather than operating with the same old model of mediocrity.
Voice of Reason

Columbus, OH

#20 Sep 23, 2010
Schools who receive voucher funds are subject to the same state requirements as public schools. There is also accountability of voucher student performance as evidenced in the article. Finally, I'm frankly relieved that parents have a measure of control over where their child goes to school. After all, who knows what's best for their kid - the state, or the parent?
Public Fools wrote:
Folks, one thing the voucher fans have failed to address is; what happens if a parent decides to use a voucher to send their child to a school that has either a poor academic record or worse, a mission that deviates from acceptable standards and/or ethics of society?
To be specific, it is entirely conceivable that a parent could use a voucher to send their child to a school opened by the KKK or pedifiles. True, these may be extreme examples. Nevertheless, I'm not interested in having public money being used to support institions that are not subject to the scrutney of the voters. The mentality of the voucher parent may be "Its my voucher and I'll send my child to the school that I've selected, period!" However, that parent is using public money and thus, the voters should determine where that money goes.
Voice of Reason

Columbus, OH

#21 Sep 23, 2010
Rockne wrote:
The only fair comparison is to match "head to head" a student who is using a voucher with the former classmates she left behind. In other words, let's look specifically at the students only at the 47 failing schools, and extract from the statitics the students at the non-failing schools.
In this context, the overall averages mean little because there is such a wide variation in effectiveness even within the CPS.
I agree. Also, as pointed out in another comment, if you look at the statistics in the article, there is a trend of improvement over time in the voucher students. They appear to be catching and passing their public school counterparts as they progress through grade levels. This makes since considering they started off behind and are catching up. So while the scores seem to average out, there really is a positive trend in voucher students scores, and it appears they will be eventually outscoring their peers.

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