Superintendent: Bad tenured teachers hard to fire

[Just Another Teacher]

Sarah wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow, that sounds interesting! Any other info you could give would be great. Like it or not, it is something we will have to deal with. I am wondering how all these children will cope in the future as adults. Which is why I would rather turn to teaching skills and strategies to help them rather than meds. Did you learn anything about that?

DITTO!!! Tell us more!!

[AISD Teacher]

Let's all let the superintendents talk about how hard it is to get a bad ADMINISTRATOR fired... They have more 'due process' than anyone. Once they screw up they just get reassigned at the same pay somewhere else. This has become a sore spot with a lot of teachers, especially when we see the sweetheart deals, revolving doors, golden parachutes, and 'bird's nests on the ground' that a lot of superintendents have (can we say Hector Montenegro?).

[Georgie B]

So what.

Things haven't changed.

It's still the same thing, except a different era.

You still give homework, right?
You still give tests/quizes, right?
You still have to plan out the day/week on what you're gonna cover, right?
You still have to stay after school/class to give students extra help, right?
You still have to deal with other teachers/upper management/unions, right?

Tell me, how is it different? It's still the same.

Oh yeah, one other thing. My father taught every summer in Jamaica for two months. About 30 straight years.

Another thing, my father did fundraising for his programs, which required him to travel out of the country multiple times per year. Do you?

So don't sit there and tell me its different, because it ain't.

Just Another Teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
35 years ago and students who are independent and responsible/accountable for themselves means you have no where near learned/seen what the daily/weekly duties of a public school (K-12th grade) teacher are. However, it does give you a hint about other countries. College professors here are treated (somewhat/maybe a little more than us)very similiarly to what public school teachers are in other countries.

[Just Another Teacher]

TRUTH wrote:

<quoted text>
People get evaluated by others all the time and teachers should be no different. If you have a complaint with your doctor/lawyer/utility representative/sales clerk, etc. you get a say, but that doesn't mean you're evaluating a person's entire job performance, just your particular experience.
Your opening sentences prooves there is an arrogance in your profession and parents get treated like outsiders until you want to complain about them. Parents may not be teachers but they're often educated people who have real life experience, but it seems in your profession they are looked upon as clueless imbeciles who would have no idea whether a particular teacher is doing a decent job or not, but it doesn't stop teachers from "evaluating" any parent's performance in raising their kids. Teachers have plenty of opinions on whether parents are doing a good job. We may not be in your classroom, but you are not in our houses either.
And based on what I read here, teachers make a lot of assumptions about parents.

Yes, you are correct we do. We have to in order to meet the needs of our students.
Children who are developing normally educationally and behaviorally, usually come from homes where they get their needs met and are supported in all of their life's endeavors. Children who are struggling in school and don't have any discernable disabilities or handicaps, usually have issues with their home life.
Rather straightforward, but please, note the word "usually".

[Just Another Teacher]

TRUTH wrote:

<quoted text>
Curriculum gets tricky, but I think it would be beneficial if parents were given an outline or summary of the curriculum of any particular grade for a start. I often read chapters in my kid's books and look over materials to see what they're learning, so based on info provided by the school and what we see coming home, I feel parents should be able to discuss ideas for what can be added, excluded or expanded on and what is redundant. I don't propose big curriculum overhauls, but as an example, based on what I learned in school, and what was required in my basic non-elective college courses and what I see my kids bringing home, I might have some input ( and I say this for all parents) so some parental input migh be helpful.

In Florida, K-12 public school students are taught the Sunshine State Standards, which have been developed over the years by committees composed of parents, teachers, community members, couselors, administrators, pyschologists, etc. They are reviewed and updated annually.
The appropriate copy of each grade level's objectives are given to parents several times a year (or whenever requested)and can also be found online on state, district, school and teacher's website.

[former resident]

Sarah wrote:

<quoted text>
I am wondering how all these children will cope in the future as adults. Which is why I would rather turn to teaching skills and strategies to help them rather than meds. Did you learn anything about that?

I completely agree! The professor that came in from Yale claimed that only about 7% of the population has ADHD and of that only about 4% is taking medication.

The class was pretty amazed by that. I will check the 4% statistic (it is in my notes..) but I remember being skeptical about it. But this was based on a LARGE survey of the US population almost 80,000 people.

Another stereotype is that it is an American invention and that was well proved by statistics from world wide cases.

In any case - here is a link to a book coming out in I think September - it is from a doctor who is a skeptic...

http://www.pd-go.com/files/upload-21725.pdf

Overall though, I have been amazed by the literature I have read about the scientific basis for the disorder. I'd love to talk more but I am off topic :)

[Something to think about]

Sorry - on my other computer that I haven't been on in over a month - apparently I must have posted as "former resident" at one point..

[Something to think about]

TRUTH wrote:

<quoted text>
Your opening sentences prooves there is an arrogance in your profession and parents get treated like outsiders until you want to complain about them.

That wasn't my intention and I apologize if it came off that way. Reading what you said about how you would evaluate teachers I would have no problem with that. You bring up interesting points! Really, I have no issue with it.

Sometimes I think it is sooo hard to communicate over this forum (or emails, etc..) because many times things are misinterpreted. I thought that I said I would love anyone to come in and evaluate and if it came across the wrong way I'll try to be more careful with my words. Please don't make assumptions though - I am really trying to just talk about the issues. I think if you read my posts I am a reasonable person.

[Something to think about]

former resident wrote:

<quoted text>

Another stereotype is that it is an American invention and that was well proved by statistics from world wide cases.

AHH sorry, bad day for typing. It IS NOT an American invention - statistics from all major countries are comparable.

[Sparky]

Something to think about wrote:

<quoted text>
AHH sorry, bad day for typing. It IS NOT an American invention - statistics from all major countries are comparable.

All the 504's where students are listed with AHH, ADHD, ADD, etc. are for the most part diagnosed either by an MD or a psychiatrist or a psychologist. The parent has the student tested and evaluated by an outside party.

However, I have been under the impression that this is an American phenomenon and European children do not receive these types of designations. Is somebody able to set me straight about this?

(With 1380 posts, who gives a rat's azz if this is off-topic.)

[ddny]

Molly is my name wrote:

<quoted text>
You can not get state certification in NY without your Masters. You can get provisional certification but you must get your Masters within a few years to have full certification. The provisional certification expires.

I stand corrected. I ran into my neighbor on our evening dog walk and spoke about this again. I misunderstood what she had said. She clarified by saying she received the "state certification" before she received her masters, but was not eligible for (what they called then) permanent certification until she got her masters. Back then she thinks it was 5 years, but she received many extensions due to the fact that she has a severely handicapped child and it was about 11 years before she recieved her masters and her permanent certification. She believes things changed after she retired, in about 2004 or 2005, provisional certification is given and expires after 3 years. She beleives that now after a person receives their masters, they receive what is now called "professional certification". She also beleives that it is now extremely difficult to get more than a single two year extension after the 3 years expires.

[Something to think about]

Sparky wrote:

<quoted text>
However, I have been under the impression that this is an American phenomenon and European children do not receive these types of designations. Is somebody able to set me straight about this?

This is an abstract from a journal article:

Department of Community Health and Epidemiology, Abramsky Hall, Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, K7L 3N6, Canada.

Attention-deficit/hyperactivit y disorder (ADHD) is a behavioral disorder that affects up to 1 in 20 children in the USA. The predominance of American research into this disorder over the past 40 years has led to the impression that ADHD is largely an American disorder and is much less prevalent elsewhere. This impression was reinforced by the perception that ADHD may stem from social and cultural factors that are most common in American society. However, another school of thought suggested that ADHD is a behavioral disorder common to children of many different races and societies worldwide, but that is not recognized by the medical community, perhaps due to confusion regarding its diagnosis and/or misconceptions regarding its adverse impact on children, their families, and society as a whole. In this article we present the available data, with a view to determining the worldwide prevalence of ADHD. A total of 50 studies were identified from a MEDLINE search for the terms ADHD, ADD, HKD, or attention-deficit/hyperactivit y disorder and prevalence combined, for the years 1982 to 2001. 20 were studies in US populations and 30 were in non-US populations. Analysis of these studies suggests that the prevalence of ADHD is at least as high in many non-US children as in US children, with the highest prevalence rates being seen when using DSM-IV diagnoses. Recognition that ADHD is not purely an American disorder and that the prevalence of this behavioral disorder in many countries is in the same range as that in the USA will have important implications for the psychiatric care of children.

[Something to think about]

Sparky wrote:

<quoted text>
European children do not receive these types of designations. Is somebody able to set me straight about this?

here are some more stats about the prevalence per each country:

Germany appox 4%(uses ICD-9) YR 1990
New Zealand 7.5%(DSM III) YR 1987
Ontario 7%(DSM III) YR 1989
United Kingdom - 4%(DSM III) YR 1991
Switzerland 5.3%(DSM-III-R) YR 1998
Spain 8%(DSM-III-R) YR 1995
Brazil 6.5%(DSM-IV) YR 1999
Netherlands 8%(DSM-IV) YR 2000

[Sparky]

Something to think about wrote:

<quoted text>
This is an abstract from a journal article...

Thanks for those 2 posts. You gave me...something to think about.

I figured it would be listed in the DSM guide, if it was used in diagnosis. Thus it would not be peculiar just to the US. Other countries probably don't rely on it as a crutch as much as America tends to.

[Diane Mill Valley]

PLEASE ATTEND TONIGHT
The next San Rafael City Council Meeting, 8PM on Monday, July 21, 1400 5th St, Top of D St.

Please show up with me and let them know that we support SRPD sobriety checkpoints in the canal or anywhere else they can get results like they did that weekend.
No Micro managing the SRPD's DUI check points. Demand more checkpoints. Get unlicensed, uninsured drivers off the roads

[tired of it all]

Bad teachers???? How about bad administrators. If the head stinks, the whole body does. We all know, however that in the education food chain, the administrators have their jobs because of nepotism and or politics. Most have been in their ivory towers for so long, they really have no clue what is going on in classrooms. For the most part, they are only concerned with test scores, by any means. So, really how much do they concern themselves with bad teachers???

[Eddie M]

Just Another Teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
Children who are struggling in school and don't have any discernable disabilities or handicaps, usually have issues with their home life.
Rather straightforward, but please, note the word "usually".

Um, what? Is this a generic blame statement? I note the "usually" and that means "mostly". Many students struggle because teachers can't, or won't, help them.

Many times my own kids have come home saying how they don't understand what was taught that day, or they didn't understand the teacher. I always ask if they told the teacher and often they tell me things like the teacher was too busy, or rushed though the explanation, or just ignored them.

If the kids aren't getting the lessons while in school and they're coming home already behind then that is the fault of the teacher.

If a student comes home without understanding what is being taught then it's the teacher who is not doing something right not the parents.

A student shouldn't be spending all day in school only to come home and be struggling with the work. If the parents are the ones that are getting their kids to understand their lessons then the teachers just aren't doing their job.

You should be working for DCF since it seems from your posts you appear to feel that most parents are lousy at raising kids. You don't seem that sharp yourself.

[Eddie M]

Just Another Teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
In Florida, K-12 public school students are taught the Sunshine State Standards, which have been developed over the years by committees composed of parents, teachers, community members, couselors, administrators, pyschologists, etc. They are reviewed and updated annually.
The appropriate copy of each grade level's objectives are given to parents several times a year (or whenever requested)and can also be found online on state, district, school and teacher's website.

That sounds very progressive. Here in Connecticut parents are really not kept that well informed. As you can see when something is amiss they get the blame though.

[Eddie M]

tired of it all wrote:

Bad teachers???? How about bad administrators. If the head stinks, the whole body does. We all know, however that in the education food chain, the administrators have their jobs because of nepotism and or politics. Most have been in their ivory towers for so long, they really have no clue what is going on in classrooms. For the most part, they are only concerned with test scores, by any means. So, really how much do they concern themselves with bad teachers???

You make a valid point. They really don't care as long as they don't come out looking bad. Any concerns made about any teacher usually falls on deaf ears. It's obvious that the most well used tactic is to just blame the parents. It's really funny. When a teacher earns an award or a school gets high scores they never include the parents in the credit. They just blame the parents when things go bad.

[Peoples Champ]

Blame the parents? Are you even awake right now Eddie M? The failures of society are time and again blamed on teachers, who do the work regardless of parent interaction and help from the American society. Sadly, you're not the only idiot out there, many people are as ignorant as you are (by ignorant I mean you spout off about things you know nothing about, thus proving yourself to hold no knowledge of that subject). Teachers love it when parents are involved, it's huge. So you think that teachers sit around basking in rewards and high test scores they get all the credit for? I don't even know that I can dignify that with a response, you obviously put no thought into your post. You are the worst of the worst dude, next time think before typing.