Methadone clinic could cause problems

[nobody]

I think that the opposing side is catching up now.Good to see ya over here PSYCHE!!!Now It won't be just one sided.

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
i think you are still comparing US style programs to mine a canadian program. we have different understanding in what needs to be part of methadone "treatment". again our focus is to find the lowest apropriate dose for each client to function and increases very rarely happen here. piss tests happen daily and blood test happen at our dicresion. individual and group therapy is manditory and so is the case worker (someone like me, those lucky b^st^rds!) as fare as short term compared to long term, like i said, i would support anyones attempt to wean themselve off methadone (here we call it a "taper") and some people have been successful however studdies show that most of all tapers return to some form of substance use within the fist few months with a return to opiat use by most. i will try to track down the excact numbers but the point is tapers have a very low showing of success. as far as diversion or sharring or selling methadone here, like i said that is for the most part a myth the cops use to scare the unsuspecting uneducated public. our experience shows, backed up by stats that methadone is an efficient, cost effective and safe treatment for opiat addiction. we supply methadone in jail for our clients who were on treatment when they were busted because the detention centre here in town is against any kind of medical intervention for addiction while incarcerated and we had several clients go through some really life threatening experiences while in jail so we fought them very had for our clients right to continue established treatment durring periods of incarceration. again, in closing, we support any persons wishes to be drug free and i will do anything i can to help them achieve that goal icluding sitting with them and wipping up their vomit if that is what they need. i also go to my fair share of funerals for all my clients, methadone or not. i wish you continued success and i wish you well my friend.

How do you determine the appropriate starting dose? Who controls the weaning process? Why don't you just give Zofran so you don't have to be wiping up vomit.

[mugwah]

the perscribing physician would control all those processes, including zofram or whatever canadian drug is appropriate for the siuation. understanding that if i am assisting a client who want to stop using methadone an become "drug free" they may well refuse the zofran seeing it simply as just another drug. at this point in withfrawl, people tend to get a bit myopic.

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
I've been polite and respectful the entire time. I'm not crazy about Methadone. This is a community forum and I would like for you to answer some questions. The views of the opposing side are clearly stated in the article from the CDC. Don't act naive like you don't know what the issues are, you make yourself look like a horsesass.

i have also benn "polite and respectful" throughout my entire time on this thread, however i have also said that if i think someone is being an a^^hole i will tell them. your tone sir, is frankly condesending and creats an unnecessary advisarial tennor to the diologue. and yes i am very aware of what the issues are including the potential for financial gain on the part of some of the particapents of this discussion should they choose to be involved in providing this service. that there is going to be a clinic in my opinion is a given and it very well may be a McMethadone clinic, i happen to think that would be unfortunate. if all this makes me a horses a^^, well i always liked horses, they're catiouse animals.

[mugwah]

nobody wrote:

I think that the opposing side is catching up now.Good to see ya over here PSYCHE!!!Now It won't be just one sided.

dont be so sure Nobody, you havent seen their true motivation, the reason they are asking their questions. they may very well be "the other side" indeed, but not the one you might first think. find out why they are so interested all of a sudden? remember there is a lot of money to be made from a methadone clinic thatcharges insurence companies for their services an bill other govenment medical programs. Nobody, they may be your friends, i dont know but be careful they have their own reasons to be here and you mote the have not said what those mootive might be so far. why do you think that is?

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm dead serious about my questions, why won't you give me serious answers. You can give me all your past success stories about people who did well on Methadone, but you don't address all the ones who died from it. Like anything else, there's a down side to all this and from what I can see, the bad far outweighs the good.

what deaths are you referring to? you cant just toss that into the conversation without defining any mitigating factors that may have contributed to the deaths. were there other drugs involved, was there and underlying condition. you are attemtiong to strike an emotional chord here to try and give your position more wheight than it actually has. you know the actual number of deaths from methadone treatment are relativly small compared to the deaths from ileagal drug use, so why even ask the question. this is the game playing i've been talking about folks. be careful with this guy, he's got alot up his sleave that you don't know about yet.

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
Then tell me about these existing programs. Who do I contact? Who SPECIFICALLY do you refer to and what kind of programs do they offer? What actually do you do in-house?

remember, i'm in canada the names of the programs will mean nothing to you and wont move the conversation. sufice it to say that if a client identifies a need or one is identified by one of the program staff in evealuation every effort id made to address that need by the program staff. we also have an established network of community agencies that provide a myriad of other services so outside referrals could be made. initially rewferrals are a simple phone call using non-identifying information. if the referral is apropriate then more information, documents and assessment would be made available on an as need basis. someone working on employment issues might not be advised of a medical condition if deemed to be not aplicable.

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
What is the governments stance on Methadone maintenance? What is the feeling of the American Medical Association? What are the current controversies surrounding opioid therapy for non-cancer pain treatment? Would you take Methadone or give it to your own parents or children?

i'm canadian right, i expect you govt. stance on methagone is changing with your new adminisration. i think many of the contraversies are covered in the thread. heremethadone is used for pain management not specific to cancer. i will answer this question once, because i believe i understand some of your motivation now although you make it very hard as only a "psychologist or something of that nature could. yes i would take methadone and i would counsel family members to do the same if the condition warrented. would you? fair question, i think. will you answer it or avoid it as i suspect?

[mugwah]

nobody wrote:

Mugwah You are right I don't know anything about Canada.I do still believe in short term MMT but I also believe that everyone is deff Some addict's might take 6 month's some might take 1year some might even take 2 year's.Although I do think that at some point that a taper plan should be enforced the addict themselfes have no control whatsoever so someone need's to guild them to recovery.
I understand that there are socialworker's but what is the percentage off people that go into MMT and are drug free after say 3 year's?I do belive that the whole point is to become drug free isn't it?Allthough it seem's that isn't the case the problem that I have with that is yes addict's have a better life on Methadone but they would have a even better life totaly sober would you not agree with that?
Also this is totaly off topic but Is gun's IIlegal in Canada? If not what are you're law's with gun control?Just wondering If they are all for the legalazation off drug's yet against People keeping and bearing arm's.It really dosen't matter I was just wondering.Thank's

fiorst off i think you name shouldn't be nobody, i think it should be 'somebody withh balls'! there are programs that do focus on clients being drug free in a set period of time but i am wary of them cause i'm not sure someone elses time that they want to kick. that is a very personal choice and needs to be repected. forced cold turky doesn't have a very high success rate. i do know some people who have gone cold turkey and been successful, i've helped some of them and it can be a very hard process and it can be dangerouse if there is no medical compponant close by, luckily i work with a nurse, and she is very good. i support individual choice man and if someone wants to totaly kick, im there.

[Old Fart]

I always wondered how to win a debate with Psyche [The man}. Thank you mugwah for showing me. Just wait till he's not around to post my views. That's a great idea Thanks?

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

the perscribing physician would control all those processes, including zofram or whatever canadian drug is appropriate for the siuation. understanding that if i am assisting a client who want to stop using methadone an become "drug free" they may well refuse the zofran seeing it simply as just another drug. at this point in withfrawl, people tend to get a bit myopic.

Still can't answer a simple question? What is YOUR typical starting dose and how did you chooses that? What other adjunctive medications do you use to control methadone side effects whether it be for constipation, nausea, rhinorrhea, etc. A patient refusing anti-emetics needs only to be educated on it's necessity and to be assured it's not "another drug" so you're reaching for straws on this argument. The only one who is myopic is you, not the patient. By the way, you still haven't answered the other questions I posed regarding opioid induced hyperalgesia, opioid receptor downregulation and endorphin shutdown leading to depression as complications of MMT and how you would deal with these situations.

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
i have also benn "polite and respectful" throughout my entire time on this thread, however i have also said that if i think someone is being an a^^hole i will tell them. your tone sir, is frankly condesending and creats an unnecessary advisarial tennor to the diologue. and yes i am very aware of what the issues are including the potential for financial gain on the part of some of the particapents of this discussion should they choose to be involved in providing this service. that there is going to be a clinic in my opinion is a given and it very well may be a McMethadone clinic, i happen to think that would be unfortunate. if all this makes me a horses a^^, well i always liked horses, they're catiouse animals.

Your references to urine and anal orifices does not quite qualify for polite nor respectful. You perceive condescension from me because you are unable to give me straight answers to straightforward questions. They are very salient questions that's testing your knowledge on the subject and it seems you are a bit uncomfortable with them to say the least. I don't want to be your adversary, on the contrary, I am waiting for intelligent responses from you that would indicate to me that you are truly a colleague. The issues I'm talking about has nothing to do with financial gain, only medically related issues as well as psychiatric and psychosocial issues which I would also like to discuss at a later time.

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
dont be so sure Nobody, you havent seen their true motivation, the reason they are asking their questions. they may very well be "the other side" indeed, but not the one you might first think. find out why they are so interested all of a sudden? remember there is a lot of money to be made from a methadone clinic thatcharges insurence companies for their services an bill other govenment medical programs. Nobody, they may be your friends, i dont know but be careful they have their own reasons to be here and you mote the have not said what those mootive might be so far. why do you think that is?

My motivation? Simple, truth and education. What's yours?

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
what deaths are you referring to? you cant just toss that into the conversation without defining any mitigating factors that may have contributed to the deaths. were there other drugs involved, was there and underlying condition. you are attemtiong to strike an emotional chord here to try and give your position more wheight than it actually has. you know the actual number of deaths from methadone treatment are relativly small compared to the deaths from ileagal drug use, so why even ask the question. this is the game playing i've been talking about folks. be careful with this guy, he's got alot up his sleave that you don't know about yet.

I'm talking about deaths that result from respiratory depression as a result of a buildup of Methadone in ones system especially when mixed with benzodiazepines or alcohol. The only one playing games is you. Why do you even bring that up? Just answer the questions and be polite and respectful.

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
remember, i'm in canada the names of the programs will mean nothing to you and wont move the conversation. sufice it to say that if a client identifies a need or one is identified by one of the program staff in evealuation every effort id made to address that need by the program staff. we also have an established network of community agencies that provide a myriad of other services so outside referrals could be made. initially rewferrals are a simple phone call using non-identifying information. if the referral is apropriate then more information, documents and assessment would be made available on an as need basis. someone working on employment issues might not be advised of a medical condition if deemed to be not aplicable.

Still sounds pretty vague to me but I'll let you slide on this one. What is your rate of success in weaning people off Methadone and getting them back to productive lives and what is your relapse rate?

[Psyche]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
i'm canadian right, i expect you govt. stance on methagone is changing with your new adminisration. i think many of the contraversies are covered in the thread. heremethadone is used for pain management not specific to cancer. i will answer this question once, because i believe i understand some of your motivation now although you make it very hard as only a "psychologist or something of that nature could. yes i would take methadone and i would counsel family members to do the same if the condition warrented. would you? fair question, i think. will you answer it or avoid it as i suspect?

I would not take it nor give it to any family member. What do you think my motivation is?

[mugwah]

completely consistant with yours. i don't stand to gain or loose anything when these clinics open and i believe they will. was just passing through diffrerent threads when i saw the methadone heading and stopped to watch. what i saw was a lot of misinformation being put out as truth, bullying and some people trying to get real information and not being able to. i am not gods gift to social work by any streatch, in fact i am amazed i get paid for this sh^t but i bothers me when i see people being fed mis-information when there might be a real issue there.

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
Still sounds pretty vague to me but I'll let you slide on this one. What is your rate of success in weaning people off Methadone and getting them back to productive lives and what is your relapse rate?

i don't kmow the stats, thats not my forte, my partner does all that, i will ask and try to get ananmswer today. you also need to know that we are a harm reduction program not abstenence based. we do not make reduction or cessation of use a prerequisite for treatment. in some cases the goal is not stopping drug use entirerly. more on this latter.

[quebert]

mugwah wrote:

<quoted text>
we do not make reduction or cessation of use a prerequisite for treatment. in some cases the goal is not stopping drug use entirerly. more on this latter.

Exactly why you people are filth who should be stopped. You're nothing but drug profiteers.

[mugwah]

Psyche wrote:

<quoted text>
I would not take it nor give it to any family member. What do you think my motivation is?

i don't know, having read some of your posts to fyi you might be inclined to use a different medication if the situation warranted, thats my besat guess. could be any number of other reasons.