Colo. gay discrimination alleged over wedding cake

Jun 6, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Denver Post

Engaged gay couple Dave Mullins, second from left, and Charlie Craig, left, were joined by a small group of supporters in Lakewood on Aug. 4, 2012 to protest and boycott the Masterpiece Cakeshop at 3355 S. Wadsworth Blvd. The couple went to the cake shop, and the owner turned the couple away saying he would not make them a rainbow-themed wedding ... (more)

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#1706
May 7, 2014
 

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Xavier Breath wrote:
<quoted text>
You are incorrect (big surprise). You may think whatever you want. SCOTUS has already ruled on this many years ago.
The question presented by this case, however, does not involve an effort by the government to regulate what Respondents believe. Rather, it involves the state’s regulation of conduct; specifically, Respondents’ refusal to make a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage due to a religious conviction that same-sex marriage is abhorrent to God. Whether regulation of conduct is permissible depends very much upon the facts of the case.
The types of conduct the United States Supreme Court has found to be beyond government control typically involve activities fundamental to the individual’s religious belief, that do not adversely affect the rights of others, and that are not outweighed by the state’s legitimate interests in promoting health, safety and general welfare. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/asse...
So basically ignoring the First Amendment by forcing a shop owner to support “gay marriage” with his talents, or punish him with fines and jail. Good to see you stand for ALL Americans. <sarcasm.

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#1707
May 7, 2014
 

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southern alien wrote:
<quoted text>
What if the religious belief entails breaking another law? Child sacrifice is big in religions.
Are you really comparing the reservation of a wedding cake for a husband and wife to a child sacrifice? Your comparison is poor, without thought and invalid.

On that note, I would bet that you support “child sacrifice” under the guides and lie of “women’s health” and “woman’s right to choose.” BUT that’s for a different thread.
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#1708
May 7, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“Not anti-discrimination laws.” They will when they discriminate against religious freedom.
They didn't. There are people who religiously believe that infidels are evil and do not want to serve them. They still can't discriminate.

There are people who religiously believe that black people are evil and do not want to serve them. They still can't discriminate.
Respect71 wrote:
The problem is you are so bent on “gay rights” that you choose to ignore American rights.
No, the problem is that you're making up rights that don't exist.
Xavier Breath

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#1709
May 7, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
So basically ignoring the First Amendment by forcing a shop owner to support “gay marriage” with his talents, or punish him with fines and jail. Good to see you stand for ALL Americans. <sarcasm.
All Americans aren't as ignorant as you. My religion says people like you should be thrown to the lions. Now tell me why YOUR religious beliefs take precedence over mine, since you think you know so much about the First Amendment. And where in the world did you get the stupid idea that your religious beliefs trump the law of the land?

Baking a cake is NOT forcing someone to support gay marriage. The baker has the choice to go out of the wedding cake business altogether. Odd that gay money is good enough for birthday cakes.....but not wedding cakes.
Xavier Breath

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#1710
May 7, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you really comparing the reservation of a wedding cake for a husband and wife to a child sacrifice? Your comparison is poor, without thought and invalid.
On that note, I would bet that you support “child sacrifice” under the guides and lie of “women’s health” and “woman’s right to choose.” BUT that’s for a different thread.
Are you REALLY that dim-witted?

Your particular religious beliefs get NO PREFERENTIAL treatment from the government. When the baker obtained his license to operate a business, he agreed to play by the rules. The government doesn't care what your religious beliefs are.
You can call me Dick

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#1711
May 7, 2014
 

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In this case I see the cake maker as an artist. I believe he has the right to decide where is displayed and what he wants his art to depict. Had it been argued that way, not a judge or jury that would, o could rule against it.
Xavier Breath

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#1712
May 7, 2014
 

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You can call me Dick wrote:
In this case I see the cake maker as an artist. I believe he has the right to decide where is displayed and what he wants his art to depict. Had it been argued that way, not a judge or jury that would, o could rule against it.
Wanna bet?

Perhaps you aren't familiar with this case. Here: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/asse...
You can call me Dick

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#1713
May 7, 2014
 

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Xavier Breath wrote:
<quoted text>
Wanna bet?
Perhaps you aren't familiar with this case. Here: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/asse...
I will type slower.

I said that I see the cake as art, and had it been brought before a judge or jury as art under the the first amendment and not a religious value a judge or jury would not have touched it.

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#1714
May 8, 2014
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
They didn't. There are people who religiously believe that infidels are evil and do not want to serve them. They still can't discriminate.
There are people who religiously believe that black people are evil and do not want to serve them. They still can't discriminate.
<quoted text>
No, the problem is that you're making up rights that don't exist.
It’s not about refusing service. It’s about being forced to support an institution with personal talents that one does NOT support.

Will you be the one to prosecute the gay baker who is asked to make a wedding cake with the words “marriage is ONLY for a husband and wife” and refuses? Don’t say it won’t happen because we all have heard of the despicable things the Westboro Baptist Church have done, so it absolutely can happen.

“No, the problem is that you're making up rights that don't exist.” You mean like the right to marry? Marriage is NOT a government institution, nor should it be regulated by government, BUT that’s where were are at. The government is redefining marriage and forcing shop owners to support an institution they don’t believe in.

The fact is government will redefine marriage to include gays, despite the hundreds of millions of Americans who hold traditional marriage dear and important. Are you going to be the one who wants the government to remove that belief from Americans through legislation?

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#1715
May 8, 2014
 

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Xavier Breath wrote:
<quoted text> All Americans aren't as ignorant as you. My religion says people like you should be thrown to the lions. Now tell me why YOUR religious beliefs take precedence over mine, since you think you know so much about the First Amendment. And where in the world did you get the stupid idea that your religious beliefs trump the law of the land?
Baking a cake is NOT forcing someone to support gay marriage. The baker has the choice to go out of the wedding cake business altogether. Odd that gay money is good enough for birthday cakes.....but not wedding cakes.
Throwing insults at someone is what one does when they have no argument.
The fact is government will redefine marriage to include gays, despite the hundreds of millions of Americans who hold traditional marriage dear and important. Are you going to be the one who wants the government to remove that belief from Americans through legislation?

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#1716
May 8, 2014
 

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Xavier Breath wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you REALLY that dim-witted?
Your particular religious beliefs get NO PREFERENTIAL treatment from the government. When the baker obtained his license to operate a business, he agreed to play by the rules. The government doesn't care what your religious beliefs are.
More insults?
It should because of the first Amendment. You see the government’s ONLY job is to protect liberties not to force people to bend to your will.
I know you support legalized child sacrifice as well, don’t you?
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#1717
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
It’s not about refusing service. It’s about being forced to support an institution with personal talents that one does NOT support.
No one is being forced to support any institution. They simply must sell a product, which is something they're already willing to do.
Respect71 wrote:
Will you be the one to prosecute the gay baker who is asked to make a wedding cake with the words “marriage is ONLY for a husband and wife” and refuses? Don’t say it won’t happen because we all have heard of the despicable things the Westboro Baptist Church have done, so it absolutely can happen.
That action can't be prosecuted. Anti-discrimination laws prevent businesses from discriminating against *customers*, not against *content*.

The gay couple who wanted a wedding cake did not ask for the baker to do anything the baker does not ALREADY DO: bake a cake.
Respect71 wrote:
“No, the problem is that you're making up rights that don't exist.” You mean like the right to marry? Marriage is NOT a government institution, nor should it be regulated by government, BUT that’s where were are at.
Marriage IS a government institution. And equal protection and application of laws is a right.
Respect71 wrote:
The fact is government will redefine marriage to include gays, despite the hundreds of millions of Americans who hold traditional marriage dear and important. Are you going to be the one who wants the government to remove that belief from Americans through legislation?
What are you talking about? No one's belief is removed. You can believe whatever you want.

Having a belief that marriage is only for straight couples doesn't entitle you to force that belief upon everyone else.

And not being allowed to force it upon everyone else isn't a violation of your beliefs.

Slaveowners believed that slavery was their moral right ordained by God. When slavery was banned, was their religious freedom violated?
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#1718
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
It should because of the first Amendment. You see the government’s ONLY job is to protect liberties not to force people to bend to your will.
Respect, your position on SSM is anti-liberty.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#1719
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
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What a surprise more insults, I sit in disbelief.
The government has to REDEFINE marriage in order for the law to include gays. If there was NO distinction then why does marriage have to be REDEFINED? This is where your intellectual honesty is astounding.
Because you, yourself can’t have be honest a draw specific lines, it is not blatantly obvious you have no regard for our Constitution and those who don’t agree with redefining marriage.
AGAIN, the fact is that the government will REDEFINE marriage to include gays, and I asked you specifically to draw the line.
Can people with faith or even without faith, disagree with “gay marriage” at all?
How important is it for government to FORCE Americans to use their talents in support of “gay marriage”?
Question.

If marriage was "ALWAYS" one man one woman, why did so many places change the laws in the last 20 years to say that?

Isn't that also "re-defining marriage"
Xavier Breath

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May 8, 2014
 

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You can call me Dick wrote:
<quoted text>
I will type slower.
I said that I see the cake as art, and had it been brought before a judge or jury as art under the the first amendment and not a religious value a judge or jury would not have touched it.
Dick,
Read the damn decision. The First Amendment issue is discussed. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/asse...

Xavier Breath

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#1721
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
More insults?
It should because of the first Amendment. You see the government’s ONLY job is to protect liberties not to force people to bend to your will.
I know you support legalized child sacrifice as well, don’t you?
Right.... I support child sacrifice.... sure.... damn...... just how ignorant are you?

Rights aren't absolute. Your rights end where mine begin. You DO NOT have a right to violate the law and use your religion as an excuse. The government has EVERY right to provide a discrimination-free market place. If you don't agree with that, you can either go back to school and stay awake in civics class and LEARN or you can move. I am tired of illiterate fools shooting off their mouths about what they think the Constitution means. The Constitution means what SCOTUS says it means!

In 1990, Scalia wrote the majority opinion in Employment Division v. Smith, concluding that the First Amendment “does not require” the government to grant “religious exemptions” from generally applicable laws or civic obligations. The right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a valid and neutral law of general applicability,” Scalia wrote in the 6-3 majority decision, going on to aggressively argue that such exemptions could be a slippery slope to lawlessness.

“The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind,” he wrote,“ranging from compulsory military service, to the payment of taxes, to health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws, compulsory vaccination laws, drug laws, and traffic laws; to social welfare legislation such as minimum wage laws, child labor laws, animal cruelty laws, environmental protection laws, and laws providing for equality of opportunity for the races.”“To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.”
Xavier Breath

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#1722
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
Throwing insults at someone is what one does when they have no argument.
The fact is government will redefine marriage to include gays, despite the hundreds of millions of Americans who hold traditional marriage dear and important. Are you going to be the one who wants the government to remove that belief from Americans through legislation?
I have no argument? Honey, this argument was resolved almost 25 years ago. Tell me.... do you re-invent the wheel every day when you get up, or do you learn from history?

The government doesn't give a flying fuck about what you believe. Their only concern is your conduct. Break the law, suffer the consequences.
Xavier Breath

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#1723
May 8, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
Will you be the one to prosecute the gay baker who is asked to make a wedding cake with the words “marriage is ONLY for a husband and wife” and refuses? Don’t say it won’t happen because we all have heard of the despicable things the Westboro Baptist Church have done, so it absolutely can happen.
That would be a freedom of speech issue, dumbass. Not the same thing. In this case, nothing..... I repeat, NOTHING was discussed about "words on the cake."
You can call me Dick

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#1724
May 9, 2014
 

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Xavier Breath wrote:
<quoted text>
Dick,
Read the damn decision. The First Amendment issue is discussed. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/asse...
You go to the Findings of Fact. I'll make it easy for you skip to one that starts with the number 9. The smoking gun for my argument!

Game set and match goes to Dick

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#1725
May 9, 2014
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
No one is being forced to support any institution. They simply must sell a product, which is something they're already willing to do.
<quoted text>
That action can't be prosecuted. Anti-discrimination laws prevent businesses from discriminating against *customers*, not against *content*.
The gay couple who wanted a wedding cake did not ask for the baker to do anything the baker does not ALREADY DO: bake a cake.
<quoted text>
Marriage IS a government institution. And equal protection and application of laws is a right.
<quoted text>
What are you talking about? No one's belief is removed. You can believe whatever you want.
Having a belief that marriage is only for straight couples doesn't entitle you to force that belief upon everyone else.
And not being allowed to force it upon everyone else isn't a violation of your beliefs.
Slaveowners believed that slavery was their moral right ordained by God. When slavery was banned, was their religious freedom violated?
“No one is being forced to support any institution. They simply must sell a product, which is something they're already willing to do.” For a husband and wife.

“That action can't be prosecuted. Anti-discrimination laws prevent businesses from discriminating against *customers*, not against *content*.” LOL… If the gay baker refuses to write the statement on the cake then he breaks the law and faces fines and jail, discriminating against the customer.

“The gay couple who wanted a wedding cake did not ask for the baker to do anything the baker does not ALREADY DO: bake a cake.” For husband and wife couples.

“Marriage IS a government institution. And equal protection and application of laws is a right.”
You are either blatantly ignorant or sorely uneducated. Please cite the official document that states,““Marriage IS a government institution.”

“What are you talking about? No one's belief is removed. You can believe whatever you want. Having a belief that marriage is only for straight couples doesn't entitle you to force that belief upon everyone else.” Explain how not serving a wedding cake is forcing a belief upon the gay couple, then explain how suing the baker for the gay couple isn’t forcing their views upon him.

“Slaveowners believed that slavery was their moral right ordained by God. When slavery was banned, was their religious freedom violated?” Slavery is not the same as reserving a wedding cake for husband and wife.

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