Colo. gay discrimination alleged over wedding cake

Jun 6, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Denver Post

Engaged gay couple Dave Mullins, second from left, and Charlie Craig, left, were joined by a small group of supporters in Lakewood on Aug. 4, 2012 to protest and boycott the Masterpiece Cakeshop at 3355 S. Wadsworth Blvd. The couple went to the cake shop, and the owner turned the couple away saying he would not make them a rainbow-themed wedding ... (more)

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DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#1220
Jan 29, 2014
 
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> That was intended for man and woman.
Oh so you want to claim original intent for a passage that was plagiarized from other sources.

Keep trying to claim that religion gives you the right to disobey laws.

The Bible itself says you are wrong.

Just look at 38 Bible Verses about Obeying The Law
http://www.openbible.info/topics/obeying_the_...

If you are going to insist you follow the laws of the Bible then you have to follow the laws of the Bible:

Romans 13:1-5 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1 ESV
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 2:13 ESV
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

1 Peter 2:13-17 ESV
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Luke 20:25 ESV
He said to them,“Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Matthew 7:23 ESV
And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:22 ESV / 6 helpful votes
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says,‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Psalm 1:1-6 ESV
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

Romans 3:31 ESV
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Ezekiel 36:27 ESV
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#1221
Jan 29, 2014
 
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> That was intended for man and woman.
The sex of the people being referred to is not mentioned in the passage as you claim it is.
Warm Heart

Madisonville, KY

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#1222
Jan 29, 2014
 
DNF wrote:
<quoted text> Oh so you want to claim original intent for a passage that was plagiarized from other sources.
Keep trying to claim that religion gives you the right to disobey laws.
The Bible itself says you are wrong.
Just look at 38 Bible Verses about Obeying The Law
http://www.openbible.info/topics/obeying_the_...
If you are going to insist you follow the laws of the Bible then you have to follow the laws of the Bible:
Romans 13:1-5 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
Titus 3:1 ESV
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,
Romans 2:13 ESV
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
1 Peter 2:13-17 ESV
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Luke 20:25 ESV
He said to them,“Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”
Matthew 7:23 ESV
And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 5:22 ESV / 6 helpful votes
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says,‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Psalm 1:1-6 ESV
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
Romans 3:31 ESV
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Ezekiel 36:27 ESV
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
What does this have to do with what I said?
Warm Heart

Madisonville, KY

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#1226
Jan 29, 2014
 
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>The sex of the people being referred to is not mentioned in the passage as you claim it is.
Why is it so hard to understand that when God created the earth he created man. He saw that man needed a helper so he took the rib out of the man and made the woman. Not 2 men, not 2 women. Like I said before, we are all sinners and none any greater than the other. The only unforgivable sin is denying Christ. I do love everyone and I am not a hater but he did not say that I had to agree with everyone. There is more than one passage in the Bible.
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#1227
Jan 29, 2014
 
Warm Heart wrote:
Ps, the way we live our lives is called a lifestyle.
Sexual orientation isn't a way people live their lives. It's something you ARE.

No one being asked what their life is like says "Well, I live a straight lifestyle." because there's no such thing.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#1228
Jan 29, 2014
 
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> What does this have to do with what I said?
Since my post was all direct quotes from the Bible I guess you just proved you don't REALLY understand what the Bible says.

DNF

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#1229
Jan 29, 2014
 
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey mullah, that wasn't a reply.
You christianist freeeks aren't withholding wedding cakes from those who co habitate before marriage or do other "sinful" things.
It is clearly a homosexual obsession on the bigot fundies' part.
When we see a business owner toss out some stupid, backwater fundie on the basis of the owner's contrasting religious beliefs then we'll see how the mouthbreather, moron fundies claim their rights are being infringed on. The stupid, sexually sick hypocrites.
YUP. It's clear this is about protecting religious discrimination NOT about protecting religious freedom.

It's like hearing that woman in the republican response say our health care choices should be our own and not the government while 5 hours later they vote once again to ban abortion.
Warm Heart

Madisonville, KY

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#1232
Jan 29, 2014
 
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>Since my post was all direct quotes from the Bible I guess you just proved you don't REALLY understand what the Bible says.
That's your opinion and that's fine.

DNF

“Liberty AND Justice”

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#1233
Jan 29, 2014
 
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
I typed a slightly different view.
It's about protecting a homosexual bigotry.
If it really had anything to do with "religious" beliefs then they wouldn't be selling wedding cakes to couple who "are living in sin."
But they are.
The "religious" claim is just the crutch. We know this because, again, the fundies would freak the second a member of some other religion used such "religious" reasoning against fundies.
Well said. My thanks.

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#1235
Jan 29, 2014
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
What assumption? People are free to hate gay people if they choose to.
<quoted text>
It's PRECISELY discrimination.
Baker: I sell wedding cakes.
Straight couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: Yes.
Gay couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: No.
This is discrimination.
<quoted text>
There's nothing irrational about the argument. You can have any feelings you like about a customer and their race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, etc. But that doesn't allow you to discriminate against them.
This is established law.
<quoted text>
No, but it makes you treat people better.
“What assumption? People are free to hate gay people if they choose to.” Your assumption that people who believe that the definition of marriage as between a man-woman couple means they hate gays. That’s very sad.

“It's PRECISELY discrimination.” Not even close.

“Baker: I sell wedding cakes.
Straight couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: Yes.
Gay couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: No.” Because the baker believes a wedding cake is for a husband and wife and doesn’t sell it to them does NOTHING to the gay couple.

“There's nothing irrational about the argument. You can have any feelings you like about a customer and their race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, etc. But that doesn't allow you to discriminate against them.“ When it’s a wedding cake the symbolizes a husband and wife relationship... It absolutely does.

“No, but it makes you treat people better.”... But that’s not your goal, because you want this man in jail and fined.

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#1236
Jan 29, 2014
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
You proposed a hypothetical that doesn't make any sense.
<quoted text>
Correlation isn't causation. The number of smart phones also increased in that time. Smart phones => lower birth rate?
<quoted text>
How isn't it mild? People who oppose SSM keep ranting and raving about how it's going to be the end of civilization and the sky is going to fall.
Their evidence...uh, people in Europe are having slightly fewer kids...which is a trend that exists even where they don't have SSM.
Give me some ACTUAL EVIDENCE to support the claim that allowing SSM is going to result in a major problems.
<quoted text>
You don't have to "lose rights" to be wronged by someone. How silly.
<quoted text>
No, no, no. Not gay.
Should a business be allowed to refuse service to a person because of their race or religion or ethnicity or gender? This is a simple question.
“You proposed a hypothetical that doesn't make any sense.” Then you should clarify instead of dodging the question.

“Correlation isn't causation. The number of smart phones also increased in that time. Smart phones => lower birth rate?” And we can say gay marriage has caused an effect too. You don’t have to accept the reason, but it’s still a fact.

“How isn't it mild?” Explain how it is? They are most likely thanking God for immigration.“People who oppose SSM keep ranting and raving about how it's going to be the end of civilization and the sky is going to fall.” To be clear, I am not at all apposed to gays being together (that’s why I live in colorado where the definitions are clear), and because re-difning marriage hasn’t been done, all we can do is speculate. We did see how negative the “free love” and shacking up thing of the 60s had on the institution of marriage.

“You don't have to "lose rights" to be wronged by someone. How silly.” But the baker is loosing his rights, so not it’s not so silly.

“No, no, no. Not gay.” Apparently he would sell to husband and wife couples... Your comparison has no baring.

“Should a business be allowed to refuse service to a person because of their race or religion or ethnicity or gender? This is a simple question.” When the baker believes the wedding cake symbolizes the celebration of a husband and wife, yes!

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#1237
Jan 29, 2014
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The Civil Rights Act prohibited discrimination by businesses based on various protected classes, like race.
If the 1A allowed any business owner to simply declare "my beliefs say so" as justification for discrimination, then the Civil Rights Act would have been declared unconstitutional.
Apparently there is a similar case in in New Mexico ahead of this one, where it will be looked at... We shall see.

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#1238
Jan 29, 2014
 

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Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey cretin, one of the problems you fundie blowhards can't deal with is that you yourselves would not consider it a matter of "First Amendment rights" if a business owner of any other religious belief threw fundie morons out of his or her business...for reasons of (claimed) religious belief.
Now git ur hom skool teechur and actually speak to this point, you stupid rube.
Also, the baker's religious beliefs are completely hypocritical. He picks and chooses which "sinners" to refuse service to.
So says the bigot who hates Christians. He believes a wedding cake is for a husband a wife.

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#1239
Jan 29, 2014
 

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DNF wrote:
<quoted text>If the businessman doesn't want to obey laws governing business that has nothing to do with his religion. It's simply demanding special rights.
The law says you may not use religion, race or sexual orientation to justify discriminating against people.
As I have pointed out if you honestly feel that he has a right to use religion to ignore laws that HIS COMMUNITY adopted, then why are you not supporting Islamic Jihads?
Now you’re going to compare not selling a wedding cake to Jihad?
If he refused ALL of his business, maybe, but it was a wedding cake.

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#1240
Jan 29, 2014
 
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>1 Corinthians 7:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Looks like your "religious christian baker" doesn't practice what the Bible preaches.
My apologies, but I don’t understand your meaning of the verse... If you’re playing semantics, please don’t.
Xavier Breath

Hoboken, NJ

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#1241
Jan 29, 2014
 

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Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“Are you under the impression that Constitutional rights are unlimited?” No, however, are you under the impression that no American can disagree with gays, their lifestyle, and the idea that same-sex marriage doesn’t apply to them? &#8232;&#8232;“You have freedom of speech, but you cannot lie in court or yell fire in a theater.&#8232;You have freedom of assembly, but cannot hold a meeting in the middle of a highway.&#8232;You have freedom to arm yourself, but cannot own a nuclear weapon. &#8232;&#8232;Similarl y, freedom of religion does not allow you do to anything you want just because you have a religious reason for it. Some Mormons belief that black people are evil, with the curse of Ham. Yet, they may not refuse to serve a black customer.”  You are correct freedom of religion doesn’t allow you to do anything your want, but it certainly allows for a wedding cake to symbolize a husband and wife marriage.
&#8232;“It's similar. More similar to being black or Irish than being a member of a particular religion is.”  It’s irrational argument to push your belief upon a baker.
 
Freedom of religion is about a wedding cake? Do you have ANY idea just how stupid that sounds?

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#1242
Jan 29, 2014
 
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>If States Rights means that States can ignore Federal Laws like the Civil Rights Act* then any State has the right to ban gun ownership.
Just saying.
*SEC. 202. All persons shall be entitled to be free, at any establishment or place, from discrimination or segregation of any kind on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin, if such discrimination or segregation is or purports to be required by any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, rule, or order of a State or any agency or political subdivision thereof.
If the law refuses basic individual rights guaranteed by our Constitution then it’s void. IE, jailing, fining, and possible loss of business, when he did nothing to the gay couple.
Xavier Breath

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#1243
Jan 29, 2014
 
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> Why is it so hard to understand that when God created the earth he created man. He saw that man needed a helper so he took the rib out of the man and made the woman. Not 2 men, not 2 women. Like I said before, we are all sinners and none any greater than the other. The only unforgivable sin is denying Christ. I do love everyone and I am not a hater but he did not say that I had to agree with everyone. There is more than one passage in the Bible.
Perhaps you should PROVE god created the earth first. Then you can begin proving that we're all sinners. Until then, all you have is delusional speculation.
Warm Heart

Madisonville, KY

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#1244
Jan 29, 2014
 
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
No, mullah, it is not really fine when you take a line from scripture that you like to be fact, and the bulk of scripture, which you apparently don't value too highly, to be opinion.
In fact, it's intellectually repugnant. Like believing the earth is under 10000 years old is intellectually repugnant.
Don't you get tired of twisting? Best book ever written, and yes, I value it highly and I'm not the one who's been mocking Jesus, I hold him at a higher level. Good luck with your life, peace out.

DNF

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#1245
Jan 29, 2014
 
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
This is a simple question.” When the baker believes the wedding cake symbolizes the celebration of a husband and wife, yes!
Then if they believe that they have no reason to refuse to make a cake for something that they insist doesn't celebrate marriage.

It's that simple.

You still have FAILED to explain why it's OK for someone to use religion to practice an activity that is illegal.

Using religion to discriminate is a crime.

You support criminal activities and so does the baker. If the baker can decide what laws to obey then why can't everyone else? It's a simple question and you avoid giving a rational answer.

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