Colo. gay discrimination alleged over...

Colo. gay discrimination alleged over wedding cake

There are 57983 comments on the Denver Post story from Jun 6, 2013, titled Colo. gay discrimination alleged over wedding cake. In it, Denver Post reports that:

Engaged gay couple Dave Mullins, second from left, and Charlie Craig, left, were joined by a small group of supporters in Lakewood on Aug. 4, 2012 to protest and boycott the Masterpiece Cakeshop at 3355 S. Wadsworth Blvd. The couple went to the cake shop, and the owner turned the couple away saying he would not make them a rainbow-themed wedding ... (more)

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Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#1198 Jan 28, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
No. You can hate gay people all you like.
<quoted text>
Freedom of religion does not allow for a public business owner to discriminate against customers.
<quoted text>
No one is pushing beliefs upon a baker. The baker is simply required not to discriminate. The baker can hate black people, but cannot refuse to serve one. The baker can hate Christians, but cannot refuse to serve one.
“No. You can hate gay people all you like.” Wow... That’s a huge assumption you pulled.
“Freedom of religion does not allow for a public business owner to discriminate against customers.” You can repeat you self over and over, but not selling a wedding cake to a gay couple is FAR from discrimination... At least the definition of which you use it.
“No one is pushing beliefs upon a baker. The baker is simply required not to discriminate. The baker can hate black people, but cannot refuse to serve one. The baker can hate Christians, but cannot refuse to serve one.” More irrational arguments filled with assumptions like hate, and equating it to racism.
Let me ask you, do you think law makes people hate less?

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#1199 Jan 28, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would my son be exposed to a family constantly sharing their politics views with them? That would be bizarre. When my son's friends come over, I do not give them lectures on politics.
<quoted text>
Their birth rate has gone from 12 to 11 births/1000. Many nations in Europe have had a decline in birth rate, including those that do NOT have SSM, like Greece.
So, 1) how do you associate SSM with a mildly declining birth rate?
2) how is a mildly declining birth rate indicative of a society being turned upside down?
<quoted text>
Of course not. Churches are private institutions and have no obligation to marry anyone.
<quoted text>
He can.
<quoted text>
They were denied service.
<quoted text>
So you oppose all anti-discrimination laws? You believe businesses should be able to refuse to serve black people or Christians or Jews or Irish people or women?
“Why would my son be exposed to a family constantly sharing their politics views with them?“ That’s not what I asked.

“Their birth rate has gone from 12 to 11 births/1000. Many nations in Europe have had a decline in birth rate, including those that do NOT have SSM, like Greece.” I was only stating a fact and it coincides... I guess we’ll see.

“So, 1) how do you associate SSM with a mildly declining birth rate?” Again, I was stating fact.
“2) how is a mildly declining birth rate indicative of a society being turned upside down?” Not so mild but if you say so.

“Of course not. Churches are private institutions and have no obligation to marry anyone.” You say that now... I pray you stick to it.

“He can.” And apparently gets jail and fines for it.

“They were denied service.” So therefore what? They lost no rights.

“So you oppose all anti-discrimination laws? You believe businesses should be able to refuse to serve black people or Christians or Jews or Irish people or women?” Again with comparison? If they were all gay and wanted a wedding cake from the baker, then yes.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#1200 Jan 28, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
If this were true, the Civil Rights Acts would have been declared unconstitutional. Why haven't they?
<quoted text>
A bakery is not a Christian institution.
I am all for civil rights but please explain how the purchase of a wedding cake, is a civil right? What rights are lost if you go to a different baker who serves you?
So therefor what?
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#1201 Jan 28, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
Wow... That’s a huge assumption you pulled.
What assumption? People are free to hate gay people if they choose to.
Respect71 wrote:
You can repeat you self over and over, but not selling a wedding cake to a gay couple is FAR from discrimination.
It's PRECISELY discrimination.

Baker: I sell wedding cakes.
Straight couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: Yes.
Gay couple: Can we buy one?
Baker: No.

This is discrimination.
Respect71 wrote:
More irrational arguments filled with assumptions like hate, and equating it to racism.
There's nothing irrational about the argument. You can have any feelings you like about a customer and their race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, etc. But that doesn't allow you to discriminate against them.

This is established law.
Respect71 wrote:
Let me ask you, do you think law makes people hate less?
No, but it makes you treat people better.
Warm Heart

Central City, KY

#1202 Jan 28, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
You can downgrade it to "dislike" if you prefer.
<quoted text>
Sexual orientations are not lifestyles. You use this terminology because it makes you feel better about opposing someone for something that they have no control over.
I don't have to use any terminology to make me feel better and again, I don't hate anyone.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#1203 Jan 28, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
That’s not what I asked.
You proposed a hypothetical that doesn't make any sense.
Respect71 wrote:
I was only stating a fact and it coincides... I guess we’ll see.
Correlation isn't causation. The number of smart phones also increased in that time. Smart phones => lower birth rate?
Respect71 wrote:
Not so mild but if you say so.
How isn't it mild? People who oppose SSM keep ranting and raving about how it's going to be the end of civilization and the sky is going to fall.

Their evidence...uh, people in Europe are having slightly fewer kids...which is a trend that exists even where they don't have SSM.

Give me some ACTUAL EVIDENCE to support the claim that allowing SSM is going to result in a major problems.
Respect71 wrote:
So therefore what? They lost no rights.
You don't have to "lose rights" to be wronged by someone. How silly.
Respect71 wrote:
Again with comparison? If they were all gay and wanted a wedding cake from the baker, then yes.
No, no, no. Not gay.

Should a business be allowed to refuse service to a person because of their race or religion or ethnicity or gender? This is a simple question.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#1204 Jan 28, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am all for civil rights but please explain how the purchase of a wedding cake, is a civil right?
The Civil Rights Act prohibited discrimination by businesses based on various protected classes, like race.

If the 1A allowed any business owner to simply declare "my beliefs say so" as justification for discrimination, then the Civil Rights Act would have been declared unconstitutional.
Damm

Lakewood, NJ

#1205 Jan 28, 2014
A shame

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1209 Jan 28, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
I will phrase this as a question:
You're telling me the christianists have not appealed that decision?
I don't think this matter is settled one way or the other nationwide. As you know, apart from t his case there are other fundies in other states (OR) purposefully creating similar test cases. That means if appeals courts rule differently that this topic will reach the Supreme Court, the religionists' strategy.
I'm sure an appeal is what they want and plan on going for. But filing an appeal requires a valid reason to have the case reviewed.

And I'm grateful that you pointed out these people are NOT doing this for their religious principles but as part of a political strategy.

BTW did you watch the republican response to the SOTUA? It's clear that their claim that we will all have equal opportunities is BS when one remembers that their National Platform calls for banning SSM nationwide.

The lady looked very nice and I'm sure she's a great Mom. But she's a typical politician. Vote for us he's the bad guy. Recycle the same worn out promises without offering any details or new ideas.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1210 Jan 28, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“Are you under the impression that Constitutional rights are unlimited?” No, however, are you under the impression that no American can disagree with gays, their lifestyle, and the idea that same-sex marriage doesn’t apply to them? &#8232;&#8232;“You have freedom of speech, but you cannot lie in court or yell fire in a theater.&#8232;You have freedom of assembly, but cannot hold a meeting in the middle of a highway.&#8232;You have freedom to arm yourself, but cannot own a nuclear weapon. &#8232;&#8232;Similarl y, freedom of religion does not allow you do to anything you want just because you have a religious reason for it. Some Mormons belief that black people are evil, with the curse of Ham. Yet, they may not refuse to serve a black customer.”  You are correct freedom of religion doesn’t allow you to do anything your want, but it certainly allows for a wedding cake to symbolize a husband and wife marriage.
&#8232;“It's similar. More similar to being black or Irish than being a member of a particular religion is.”  It’s irrational argument to push your belief upon a baker.
 
If the businessman doesn't want to obey laws governing business that has nothing to do with his religion. It's simply demanding special rights.

The law says you may not use religion, race or sexual orientation to justify discriminating against people.

As I have pointed out if you honestly feel that he has a right to use religion to ignore laws that HIS COMMUNITY adopted, then why are you not supporting Islamic Jihads?

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1211 Jan 28, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
No. My argument is that First Amendment rights are being violated. Because you believe the baker’s right are less, that is what I have a problem with....
Keep making it about ‘Anti-gay’ because it’s so about that! <sarcasm.
1 Corinthians 7:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Looks like your "religious christian baker" doesn't practice what the Bible preaches.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1212 Jan 29, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
No. My argument is that First Amendment rights are being violated. Because you believe the baker’s right are less, that is what I have a problem with....
Keep making it about ‘Anti-gay’ because it’s so about that! <sarcasm.
If States Rights means that States can ignore Federal Laws like the Civil Rights Act* then any State has the right to ban gun ownership.

Just saying.

*SEC. 202. All persons shall be entitled to be free, at any establishment or place, from discrimination or segregation of any kind on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin, if such discrimination or segregation is or purports to be required by any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, rule, or order of a State or any agency or political subdivision thereof.
Denver Dan

Sacramento, CA

#1213 Jan 29, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
There's your homosexual obsession again, Jethro, because there's plenty of public licentiousness from heterosexuals, too.
And fundies are the bigots, with very, very few exceptions. Whether you are a fundie or not, you are certainly one stupid bigot.
It's easy to show: None of you faux xstain freaks would ever say a muslim business owner could throw out a fundie xstain customer on the basis of "religious" beliefs, yet that's what you're arguing (certain) so called religious people may do when it suits you jeesus freeeks.
You're obviously wrong. This is not an xstain theocracy; xstains don't get better treatment under the law than other "religious" people or those who have no "religious" belief.
More gay drama.

No queer - there's no "obsession" - merely observation you stupid gay freak.

The world does not revolve around gays friend nor will it ever.
Warm Heart

Central City, KY

#1215 Jan 29, 2014
Christaliban wrote:
<quoted text>
Your stupid, hateful bigot, sexual orientation is not a lifestyle.
Singling out gay people for lesser treatment as "sinners" amongst all other "sinners" is hate.
You vile, ignorant, deluded, passive aggressive, lying mullah.
I never called anyone a sinner, I also know that there's no sin any greater than the other and I also know that the only unforgivable sin is to deny Christ, so stop trying to twist my words.
Warm Heart

Central City, KY

#1216 Jan 29, 2014
Ps, the way we live our lives is called a lifestyle.
Warm Heart

Central City, KY

#1217 Jan 29, 2014
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>1 Corinthians 7:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Looks like your "religious christian baker" doesn't practice what the Bible preaches.
That was intended for man and woman.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1218 Jan 29, 2014
Denver Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
More gay drama.
No queer - there's no "obsession" - merely observation you stupid gay freak.
The world does not revolve around gays friend nor will it ever.
And yet you seem obsessed with any topic about gays and lesbians. Logic shows that your world does revolve around gays.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1219 Jan 29, 2014
Denver Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
More gay drama.
No queer - there's no "obsession" - merely observation you stupid gay freak.
The world does not revolve around gays friend nor will it ever.
Now back on Topic. If it's OK to claim religious freedom so you can ignore Federal and State laws, then it's OK for any State to ban people from owning guns based on religious freedom and the 10 Commandments.

It's funny watching you apply your double standard to this issue.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1220 Jan 29, 2014
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> That was intended for man and woman.
Oh so you want to claim original intent for a passage that was plagiarized from other sources.

Keep trying to claim that religion gives you the right to disobey laws.

The Bible itself says you are wrong.

Just look at 38 Bible Verses about Obeying The Law
http://www.openbible.info/topics/obeying_the_...

If you are going to insist you follow the laws of the Bible then you have to follow the laws of the Bible:

Romans 13:1-5 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1 ESV
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 2:13 ESV
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

1 Peter 2:13-17 ESV
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Luke 20:25 ESV
He said to them,“Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Matthew 7:23 ESV
And then will I declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 5:22 ESV / 6 helpful votes
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says,‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Psalm 1:1-6 ESV
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

Romans 3:31 ESV
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Ezekiel 36:27 ESV
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

DNF

“Judge less, Love more”

Level 2

Since: Apr 07

Born in Newark Ohio

#1221 Jan 29, 2014
Warm Heart wrote:
<quoted text> That was intended for man and woman.
The sex of the people being referred to is not mentioned in the passage as you claim it is.

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