Colo. gay discrimination alleged over wedding cake

Jun 6, 2013 Full story: Denver Post 3,314

Engaged gay couple Dave Mullins, second from left, and Charlie Craig, left, were joined by a small group of supporters in Lakewood on Aug. 4, 2012 to protest and boycott the Masterpiece Cakeshop at 3355 S. Wadsworth Blvd. The couple went to the cake shop, and the owner turned the couple away saying he would not make them a rainbow-themed wedding ... (more)

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Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3078 Aug 12, 2014
Terra Firma wrote:
<quoted text>
You're certainly free to hope whatever you wish in spite of reality.
We shall see.

“No Headline available”

Level 2

Since: Jan 08

Defiance, Ohio

#3079 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
You continually show your lack of understanding of history and of the Bible…. Enough said.
Of course, the bible is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

You see, in order to ensure true religious freedom, the constitution first enjoins congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion, because doing so is detrimental to the free exercise of all others.

The simple fact of the matter is that the baker has the right to his religious beliefs and free speech. He has the right to say that he disagrees with the union, but that doesn't give him the right to deny service. Providing the service in no way impacts his free exercise or free speech.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3080 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“Your poor reading comprehension is not a flaw in my analogy.” It’s your thinking.
Your memory is poor. I made an analogy. You took something out of it that didn't exist. The error was on your part.
Respect71 wrote:
“The belief that homosexuality (or same-sex marriage) is wrong, is simply a moral opinion; it is not supported by historical documents.” It isn’t? Where is your evidence?
It's YOUR claim. Where's YOUR evidence? Tell me *how* historical documents can validate a moral opinion and then show me which ones do so.
Respect71 wrote:
“Secondly, historical documents, as well as archaeology, show us that the Bible is a very poor account of history and contains known fabrications and myth-making. For example, the Gospel of Luke invents a census that never happened.” You are mistaken…
I'm not mistaken. You don't know your Bible. The census in the Gospel of Luke never happened. The Roman Empire never did (and more importantly, never would have) ordered an Empire-wide census that required citizens to go to their birth place. All censuses occurred in the place the people were living at the time, for tax purposes.

The writer of the Gospel of Luke had to *make up* that absurd census because he didn't an excuse to place Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem.
Respect71 wrote:
“People who take part in marriage are more stable, more happy, and their children have better outcomes. This applies to both straight and gay people. What reason would it not?” Cite your source.
http://www.familyfacts.org/briefs/20/marriage...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3081 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
You continually show your lack of understanding of history and of the Bible…. Enough said.
My understanding of both history and the Bible far exceeds yours. I've had to teach you your own religion numerous times.
Wondering

Tyngsboro, MA

#3082 Aug 12, 2014
lides wrote:
<quoted text>
The simple fact of the matter is that the baker has the right to his religious beliefs and free speech. He has the right to say that he disagrees with the union, but that doesn't give him the right to deny service. Providing the service in no way impacts his free exercise or free speech.
Only a moron would believe that.

“abstractions of thought...”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#3083 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
It’s your blatant discrimination against the baker and his believes that is “reprehensible.”.
The baker isn't being discriminated against. That's just another of your lies. Being told to sell the goods he purports to be in business to sell to all members of the general public isn't discrimination. Refusing to do so is discrimination against the customers he refuses to service.

“abstractions of thought...”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#3084 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
A case will go to SCOTUS and we will see.
We already have seen. An almost identical case from New Mexico has already been appealed to SCOTUS. SCOTUS declined to hear the case. But you're welcome to keep your head in the sand anyway.

“abstractions of thought...”

Level 1

Since: Apr 08

Location hidden

#3085 Aug 12, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
Nice try
It's more than a "try", cupcake; it's both fact and the law.
Respect71 wrote:
but the fact in the case is he serves gays
No one has alleged that he refuses to serve all gays, just gays that wish to purchase a wedding cake.
Respect71 wrote:
and therefore discrimination is on the basis of institution and his support and participation in that institution.
Here's a news flash, Einstein: The "institution" didn't try to buy a wedding cake; two gay men did. The "institution" wasn't refused service; two gay men were. The "institution" wasn't discriminated against; two gay men were.
Respect71 wrote:
The LACK of a husband or a wife is the issue… NOT sex.
"Husband" and "wife" are words that refer to specific genders of people. So the lack of a husband or wife is by definition about the sex of the individuals. Seriously, do you have any critical thinking skills?

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3086 Aug 13, 2014
lides wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course, the bible is utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
You see, in order to ensure true religious freedom, the constitution first enjoins congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion, because doing so is detrimental to the free exercise of all others.
The simple fact of the matter is that the baker has the right to his religious beliefs and free speech. He has the right to say that he disagrees with the union, but that doesn't give him the right to deny service. Providing the service in no way impacts his free exercise or free speech.
It does when the government (law) forces him to support and participate in the institution of which he chooses not to exercise.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3087 Aug 13, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Your memory is poor. I made an analogy. You took something out of it that didn't exist. The error was on your part.
<quoted text>
It's YOUR claim. Where's YOUR evidence? Tell me *how* historical documents can validate a moral opinion and then show me which ones do so.
<quoted text>
I'm not mistaken. You don't know your Bible. The census in the Gospel of Luke never happened. The Roman Empire never did (and more importantly, never would have) ordered an Empire-wide census that required citizens to go to their birth place. All censuses occurred in the place the people were living at the time, for tax purposes.
The writer of the Gospel of Luke had to *make up* that absurd census because he didn't an excuse to place Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem.
<quoted text>
http://www.familyfacts.org/briefs/20/marriage...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...
“It's YOUR claim. Where's YOUR evidence? Tell me *how* historical documents can validate a moral opinion and then show me which ones do so.” In all of human history there is no record of marriage that consist of same sex partners, even in ancient Rome such relationships were distinguished as unions… So cite your source that states,““The belief that homosexuality (or same-sex marriage) is wrong, is simply a moral opinion;” That was YOUR claim.

“I'm not mistaken. You don't know your Bible. The census in the Gospel of Luke never happened. The Roman Empire never did (and more importantly, never would have) ordered an Empire-wide census that required citizens to go to their birth place. All censuses occurred in the place the people were living at the time, for tax purposes.

The writer of the Gospel of Luke had to *make up* that absurd census because he didn't an excuse to place Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem.” There is not a archeology school or course in the world that doesn’t include the Bible as part of its curriculum and ALL historians acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ… You can try to deny and discredit my faith all you want, but my faith has evidence that is based on fact… Your belief is self-admitted a “secular value” that “They don't "come" from anywhere;”. These are your words that you posted.

“http://www.familyfacts.org/br iefs/20/marriage...“ This study has no mention of same-sex…

“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p mc/articles/PMC3...” This one admits same-sex families are “understudied”. Any more?

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3088 Aug 13, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
My understanding of both history and the Bible far exceeds yours. I've had to teach you your own religion numerous times.
Your pride and your self proclaimed “superiority” exceeds mine… Not history or the Bible knowledge.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3089 Aug 13, 2014
Terra Firma wrote:
<quoted text>
The baker isn't being discriminated against. That's just another of your lies. Being told to sell the goods he purports to be in business to sell to all members of the general public isn't discrimination. Refusing to do so is discrimination against the customers he refuses to service.
Who received the punishment? It wasn’t the gay couple.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3090 Aug 13, 2014
Terra Firma wrote:
<quoted text>
We already have seen. An almost identical case from New Mexico has already been appealed to SCOTUS. SCOTUS declined to hear the case. But you're welcome to keep your head in the sand anyway.
A case will go to SCOTUS and we will see.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3091 Aug 13, 2014
Terra Firma wrote:
<quoted text>
It's more than a "try", cupcake; it's both fact and the law.
<quoted text>
No one has alleged that he refuses to serve all gays, just gays that wish to purchase a wedding cake.
<quoted text>
Here's a news flash, Einstein: The "institution" didn't try to buy a wedding cake; two gay men did. The "institution" wasn't refused service; two gay men were. The "institution" wasn't discriminated against; two gay men were.
<quoted text>
"Husband" and "wife" are words that refer to specific genders of people. So the lack of a husband or wife is by definition about the sex of the individuals. Seriously, do you have any critical thinking skills?
“It's more than a "try", cupcake; it's both fact and the law.” An excuse to force a man to believe the same as you.

“No one has alleged that he refuses to serve all gays, just gays that wish to purchase a wedding cake.” Which is against his belief system, and instead of being treated with respect for that choice he was persecuted.

“Here's a news flash, Einstein: The "institution" didn't try to buy a wedding cake; two gay men did. The "institution" wasn't refused service; two gay men were. The "institution" wasn't discriminated against; two gay men were.” Justification. Forcing a man to use his talents to support and participate in a institution he doesn’t believe in, goes against our First Amendment.

“"Husband" and "wife" are words that refer to specific genders of people. So the lack of a husband or wife is by definition about the sex of the individuals. Seriously, do you have any critical thinking skills?” I do, and the difference is traditional marriage to “gay marriage”… NOT sex.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3092 Aug 13, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“It's YOUR claim. Where's YOUR evidence? Tell me *how* historical documents can validate a moral opinion and then show me which ones do so.” In all of human history there is no record of marriage that consist of same sex partners, even in ancient Rome such relationships were distinguished as unions… So cite your source that states,““The belief that homosexuality (or same-sex marriage) is wrong, is simply a moral opinion;” That was YOUR claim.
I have to show you the difference between a fact and an opinion? This is elementary school material, Respect.

"Homosexuality is morally wrong" is an opinion.
Respect71 wrote:
There is not a archeology school or course in the world that doesn’t include the Bible as part of its curriculum and ALL historians acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ…
Actually, they don't. There are historians who think Jesus was mythological or are agnostic about his historicity.

In any event, you didn't address the made up census in Luke.
Respect71 wrote:

You can try to deny and discredit my faith all you want, but my faith has evidence that is based on fact…
Your faith is contrary to the facts.
Respect71 wrote:

“http://www.familyfacts.org/br iefs/20/marriage...“ This study has no mention of same-sex…
“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p mc/articles/PMC3...” This one admits same-sex families are “understudied”. Any more?
I asked you for a reason to believe marriage benefits would not be applicable to gay people. Have you come up with any?
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3093 Aug 13, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
Your pride and your self proclaimed “superiority” exceeds mine… Not history or the Bible knowledge.
This thread has shown otherwise.

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3094 Aug 13, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
I have to show you the difference between a fact and an opinion? This is elementary school material, Respect.
"Homosexuality is morally wrong" is an opinion.
<quoted text>
Actually, they don't. There are historians who think Jesus was mythological or are agnostic about his historicity.
In any event, you didn't address the made up census in Luke.
<quoted text>
Your faith is contrary to the facts.
<quoted text>
I asked you for a reason to believe marriage benefits would not be applicable to gay people. Have you come up with any?
“"Homosexuality is morally wrong" is an opinion.” So therefore what?

“Actually, they don't. There are historians who think Jesus was mythological or are agnostic about his historicity.” Cite your source.

“In any event, you didn't address the made up census in Luke.” Archeaology of the New Testament, R.K. Harrison, William Ramsay Journal of Roman Sutidies, and A Robertson Luke the Historian in the Light of Research p.128 BRD p285.

“Your faith is contrary to the facts.” Just because you say so? My Faith is based on fact where your belief is self-admitted a “secular value” that “They don't "come" from anywhere;”.

“I asked you for a reason to believe marriage benefits would not be applicable to gay people. Have you come up with any?” You never asked me anything… You made a statement I asked you to back it up… Thus far it’s been a poor attempt… Why don’t you assert your point clearly and back it up with evidence or are your statements like your faith “They don't "come" from anywhere;”?

Level 6

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#3095 Aug 13, 2014
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
This thread has shown otherwise.
This thread affirms your pride and your self proclaimed “superiority” exceeds mine… And you truly do not value knowledge as you claim.

“No Headline available”

Level 2

Since: Jan 08

Defiance, Ohio

#3096 Aug 13, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
It does when the government (law) forces him to support and participate in the institution of which he chooses not to exercise.
The law forces him neither to support nor participate, they do require him to provide the same service he would provide anyone else, and doing so in no way violates his rights.

Grow up.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3097 Aug 13, 2014
Respect71 wrote:
<quoted text>
“"Homosexuality is morally wrong" is an opinion.” So therefore what?
So therefore documenting that other people share the same opinion doesn't validate that opinion.
Respect71 wrote:
“Actually, they don't. There are historians who think Jesus was mythological or are agnostic about his historicity.” Cite your source.
Richard Carrier or Thomas Thompson, to start.
Respect71 wrote:
“In any event, you didn't address the made up census in Luke.” Archeaology of the New Testament, R.K. Harrison, William Ramsay Journal of Roman Sutidies, and A Robertson Luke the Historian in the Light of Research p.128 BRD p285.
Making a reference to a book is not a refutation. Either explain what the book says or provide a link which can be viewed.
Respect71 wrote:
“Your faith is contrary to the facts.” Just because you say so? My Faith is based on fact where your belief is self-admitted a “secular value” that “They don't "come" from anywhere;”.
No, because I can give you facts (like the census of Luke being a lie) that contradict your religion.
Respect71 wrote:
“I asked you for a reason to believe marriage benefits would not be applicable to gay people. Have you come up with any?” You never asked me anything… You made a statement I asked you to back it up… Thus far it’s been a poor attempt… Why don’t you assert your point clearly and back it up with evidence or are your statements like your faith “They don't "come" from anywhere;”?
Post 3065, I asked you why those benefits would not be applicable to gay people. You had no answer.

All you can do it repeat your idiotic talking point.

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