Boulder investigators still receive t...

Boulder investigators still receive tips in Ramsey case, 14 years later

There are 531 comments on the KDVR story from Oct 11, 2010, titled Boulder investigators still receive tips in Ramsey case, 14 years later. In it, KDVR reports that:

Boulder DA Stan Garnett says he personally gets five or more tips each month on the JonBenet Ramsey murder mystery.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at KDVR.

“God Bless America ”

Level 2

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#187 Oct 26, 2010
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Since Logan hasn't replied, I'll ask you. Given that you agree that they weren't investigated enough, please let the rest of us know what they did that was incorrect or not thorough "enough".
You throw that term around, like others, with absolutely nothing to back it up. If you believe they haven't been investigated "enough", please let us know what they did or didn't do "enough" of to convince any of you that they are in fact, innocent or "investigated".
I'll assume and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I will assume that you also must believe there were more than one criminal in the house because not they got cleared on handwriting, DNA and alibi.
Please elaborate on what ELSE the police should have done
To which of your posts did I not reply? I did answer you. Check post #152. If I missed one of your posts, please refer me to it.
Curious C

East Hartford, CT

#188 Oct 26, 2010
Ike wrote:
<quoted text>
The Ramseys were investigated thoroughly.
Wolf's handwriting was at least as suspicious as Patsy's, according to the FDE experts in this case.
Other experts believe the Ransom Note may have been authored by other people. In addition to Mrs. Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note.(SMF 205; PSMF 205.) For example, forensic document. examiner Lloyd Cunningham cannot eliminate plaintiff as the author of the Ransom Note.(SMF 279; PSMF 279.) Plaintiff's exgirlfriend has also testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled [plaintiff's] own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author.(J. Brungardt Aff., 43.) Further, to the extent that the use of a single editing mark might suggest to plaintiff's experts that Mrs. Ramsey was the
Page 25
author, given her bachelor's degree in journalism, one. should also note that plaintiff, himself, has a Masters' degree in journalism.(Id. 13.)
17 The "proof reader marks" to which plaintiff refers is actually a lone "carrot symbol" used in one sentence where the word "not" had been left out and was later "added.(Ransom Note at 2.)
Ike, looks like these investigators were hired by the Ramseys: Here's the excerpt I pulled off jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com ..

Consultants Hired by Ramseys (2 experts)
Lloyd Cunningham
Cunningham Findings.
No Significant Similar Characteristics. "Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.(SMF P 201; PSMF P 201.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).
Cannot Identify or Eliminate Patsy as Author. In his Wolf v. Ramsey deposition, Gideon Epstein agreed with Ramsey attorney James Rawls' characterization of Cunningham's findings: "he cannot identify, nor eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note..." and "he has spent 20 hours examining the samples and documents and found that there were no significant individual characteristics, but much significant difference between Patsy's writing and the note" (p. 148:9-11 and 13-17).


Cunningham Qualifications. Cunningham was a police officer in the San Francisco Police Department from 1963-1991; he became the department's first forensic document examiner after receiving training with the U.S. Secret Service. He is a member of the Southwestern Association of Document Examiners and served as its president from 2001-2003. He is best known for being the world's leading expert on the handwriting in the Zodiac killer case.


Howard C. Rile, Jr.
Rile Findings. "Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.(SMF P 202; PSMF P 202.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14). This also is confirmed in Epstein Deposition, p. 150:6-9).


“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#189 Oct 26, 2010
Logan wrote:
<quoted text>To which of your posts did I not reply? I did answer you. Check post #152. If I missed one of your posts, please refer me to it.
I went back and re-read post 152 and all you said was that there is good reason to suspect them and the police didn't do a good enough job.

My question is how do you know that? Do you know what their investigation entailed? Do you know if they left anything out? Do you know how many hours they spent on each of your suspects? Do you know things about these people that were NOT checked by the police.

That is my question. Are you saying the police didn't do enough investigating because you know how they were investigated and they forgot or refused to investigate anything in particular, or are you saying that because you feel they are really good suspects and the police cleared them, therefore they must not have done a thorough investigation?

I'm just asking if it is an assumption that they weren't investigated "enough" or do you know details of their investigation that you can share, showing that in fact, the BPD did NOT investigate them thoroughly?

Just want to clarify that term "not investigated enough" so that when it is used, it is clear just what was or was not done
Just trying to be clear
Henri McPhee

Loughton, UK

#190 Oct 26, 2010
Nancy Krebs believed that her mom and her niece attended a Fleet White party that night. As far as I can judge that matter was never investigated properly. It was disregarded and ignored and rejected. I have never seen any evidence that Nancy's niece has ever been questioned.

There is hard documentary evidence that Fleet White, Chris Wolf and Santa Bill were never properly investigated. From Fleet's deposition:

MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that. But that is a defense in the case, a defense that someone other than the Ramseys, whoever that may be -- and I am not saying that the Ramseys are saying it is Fleet White; but if and when that issue is raised, it is going to go to the issue of the truthfulness of the testimony of some people who may have, in fact, been considered suspects by law enforcement.

And I am just asking Mr. White whether, in fact, it is true that he and/or Priscilla owned a cord or duct tape at that time.

THE WITNESS: I won't answer the question.

Q.(By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Now I am going to ask you this question. Do you know whether or not you were ever considered a suspect by the Boulder District Attorney's office?

A. I don't know.

Q. Do you know if the police ever considered you a suspect in this case?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did anybody from the police tell you that you were being considered as a suspect in this case by the Boulder District Attorney's office?

A. I don't recall.


Henri McPhee

Loughton, UK

#191 Oct 26, 2010
More about this matter of whether suspects were properly investigated which Capricorn wants to know about from previous postings on this topix forum:

I found this cross-examination of Boulder cop Weinheimer interesting:

Q. MR. BAUER: So your job was to collect forensic evidence on Mr. Wolf. You never interviewed Jackie Dilson, correct?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: That's correct.

Q. MR. BAUER: Did you make any effort to interview any of Mr. Wolf's prior employers?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: No.

Q. MR. BAUER: Did you make any effort to interview any members of his family?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: No.

Q. MR. BAUER: Did you make any effort to interview any of the individuals that Jacqueline Dilson named as possible sources of information on Mr. Wolf's involvement in JonBenet Ramsey's murder?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: No.

Q. MR. BAUER: Why didn't you pursue any of these seemingly obvious leads?

MR. MILLER: Objection to the form of the question.

Q. MR. BAUER:(BY MR. BAUER) Why didn't you pursue any of those avenues of investigation into Mr. Wolf's background?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: As I stated previously, it was my understanding that those avenues had been taken. And it was my responsibility to try to obtain those last remaining items of physical evidence from him.

Q. MR. BAUER: If you learned today that in fact none of those avenues were ever pursued by the Boulder Police Department, would you consider that to have been a thorough investigation of Mr. Wolf as a suspect?

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: If you would repeat those avenues I'll answer your question.

Q. MR. BAUER: The avenues would be an interview of any of Mr. Wolf's previous employers or current employers, any relatives of Mr. Wolf, any of the names of individuals that Jacqueline Dilson supplied to the Boulder Police Department as having information that may suggest that Wolf was involved in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

A. MR. WEINHEIMER: No, that would not have been thorough.
Henri McPhee

Loughton, UK

#192 Oct 26, 2010
From Thomas's 2001 depo:

"1 Q. Analysis proved that Santa Bill
12 didn't write the ransom note. Was he in the
13 elimination category from CBI?

14 A. Again, if you want to go back to
15 that, he was not under consideration.
16 Whether that was elimination or no evidence
17 to indicate, it was my understanding from
18 Trujillo that McReynolds was not a candidate
19 as the ransom note author.

20 Q. How many different examiners looked
21 at his handwriting?

22 A. I think it was just Chet Ubowski
23 at CBI."
Henri McPhee

Loughton, UK

#193 Oct 26, 2010
This was from FoolsGold/Don Bradley earlier this year on this forum and is something worth investigating:

"If you are really looking for parallels involving Bill McReynolds...

Mrs. Archuletta, as president of a local chapter of a major charity (United Way, I think) rejected Bill McReynolds as a Santa because she had a bad feeling about him.

The founder of the American Realist movement was so violently opposed to this Christmas spirit stuff that he actually became ill each December. American Realists would not believe in Santa Claus or engage in any foolishness about pretending that they did. Now Bill McReynolds did graduate work on the founder of the American Realist movement and Bill McReynolds was known in educational circles as an expert on the American Realists, so how odd is it that he would become a Santa and play a role so contrary to the principles he had so long studied?"
Henri McPhee

Loughton, UK

#194 Oct 26, 2010
This is an old posting on this topix forum from candy and is relevant to this matter of lack of investigation:

"How lazy is this? Did the note have prints on it? Don't bother to ask Steve, he didn't care. From Thomas's depo:

6 Q. Was there a note from Bill

7 McReynolds found torn up in JonBenet's trash

8 can in her room?

9 A. I have heard that.

10 Q. Did you ever check to see if that

11 were true?

12 A. I think I was told that it was

13 some sort of card.

14 Q. From Bill McReynolds?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it ever fingerprinted, do you

17 know?

18 A. Detective Trujillo would know that.

19 I don't.

20 Q. Did you ever try to find out?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever try to find out what

23 the card said?

24 A. I recall at one time. I don't

25 now.
Eva

AOL

#195 Oct 26, 2010
Henri McPhee wrote:
Nancy Krebs believed that her mom and her niece attended a Fleet White party that night. As far as I can judge that matter was never investigated properly. It was disregarded and ignored and rejected. I have never seen any evidence that Nancy's niece has ever been questioned.
There is hard documentary evidence that Fleet White, Chris Wolf and Santa Bill were never properly investigated. From Fleet's deposition:
MR. HOFFMAN: I am not saying that. But that is a defense in the case, a defense that someone other than the Ramseys, whoever that may be -- and I am not saying that the Ramseys are saying it is Fleet White; but if and when that issue is raised, it is going to go to the issue of the truthfulness of the testimony of some people who may have, in fact, been considered suspects by law enforcement.
And I am just asking Mr. White whether, in fact, it is true that he and/or Priscilla owned a cord or duct tape at that time.
THE WITNESS: I won't answer the question.
Q.(By Mr. Hoffman) Okay. Now I am going to ask you this question. Do you know whether or not you were ever considered a suspect by the Boulder District Attorney's office?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know if the police ever considered you a suspect in this case?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did anybody from the police tell you that you were being considered as a suspect in this case by the Boulder District Attorney's office?
A. I don't recall.
The only thing that mattered were the alibis checking out. What any Ramsey associate did years earlier is irrelevant. Everyone's alibis checked out and the police were back to square one with the family. None of the kazillion people they interviewed dodged the interview or set up parameters.
You can find something wrong with every friend of a Ramsey it appears, but they all had alibis and they were all home when they got the call to go over to the house. If people didn't know they were suspects it just shows you they didn't have a guilty conscience.
Now Henri, can you explain why John Ramsey remained silent when Nancy Krebbs went to Boulder with her bombshell? That normal? He made a statement about JMK, what kept him from voicing his surprise and concern about NK's dirty little secret?

Level 1

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#196 Oct 26, 2010
Logan wrote:
<quoted text>The same books plus research, information from those who researched the case, such as news reporters; some legal documents, and TV interviews. Although most of the books are biased, one can separate the facts from the opinions. The book by Wecht, for example, has accurate knowledge of the crime and is reliable as long as he stuck to the facts. He has excellent medical knowledge one can trust. The problem lies in his inserting his opinion, which changed as he became popular with some of the news media; but that can be overlooked.
Isn't that how most of us get our information?

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#197 Oct 26, 2010
thewhitewitchone wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that how most of us get our information?
I think so WW1, but did you get your decoder ring upgraded to Version 7.0.0.1? If not you may be using a version which is not compatible :)

Level 1

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#198 Oct 26, 2010
Legal__Eagle wrote:
<quoted text>
I think so WW1, but did you get your decoder ring upgraded to Version 7.0.0.1? If not you may be using a version which is not compatible :)
No! So that's what the problem is... ;)
tootlems

Mesquite, TX

#201 Oct 26, 2010
Henri McPhee wrote:
Nancy Krebs believed that her mom and her niece attended a Fleet White party that night. As far as I can judge that matter was never investigated properly. It was disregarded and ignored and rejected. I have never seen any evidence that Nancy's niece has ever been questioned.
There is hard documentary evidence that Fleet White, Chris Wolf and Santa Bill were never properly investigated.
I agree with you Henri. There has just been too much smoke surrounding FW and his associate TJ aka Spade. When you have people that are that closely linked to these guys making statements like "they might have been involved", they certainly need to be investigated, and investigated well.

If your one of those that believe JBR had been molested prior to that night, then these accusations become even more important, because the opportunity was definitely there.

You also have the statements from the housekeeper in Charlevoix concerning FW looking through JR's wallet, her statements about JBR being afraid of FW. This lady was reputable and by all indications a good solid citizen.

There was also the opportunity to grab the pen and pad from the residence. There was also the issue of the key to the house. On and on there's things keep popping up concerning the same characters.

I don't think either would have commited this outrageous act themselves, but it seems plausible that somebody could have been hired to do the deed.

I don't think the frequent trips to the doctor, the soiling of her clothes, comments by JBR she didn't feel pretty were just coincidence. Something may have been going on and somebody had to quieten her. Again, these things going on make Nancy Krebs statements all the more important.

I saw a post removed from a site a couple months ago. The poster had stated something along the lines of he knew the facts of the case since January '96. He went on to explain the person responsible for JBR's death was a prominent person and would never spend a day in jail. There was more but he ended with he expected the FBI to one day knock on his door and ask him who killed JBR. That post was removed and not by him because the poster could not delete it.

When you have been around a long time you learn to just kinda look around for the most smoke. And there sure seems to be a lot of smoke surrounding Fleet White.
learnin

Pomona, KS

#202 Oct 26, 2010
tootlems wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with you Henri. There has just been too much smoke surrounding FW and his associate TJ aka Spade. When you have people that are that closely linked to these guys making statements like "they might have been involved", they certainly need to be investigated, and investigated well.
If your one of those that believe JBR had been molested prior to that night, then these accusations become even more important, because the opportunity was definitely there.
You also have the statements from the housekeeper in Charlevoix concerning FW looking through JR's wallet, her statements about JBR being afraid of FW. This lady was reputable and by all indications a good solid citizen.
There was also the opportunity to grab the pen and pad from the residence. There was also the issue of the key to the house. On and on there's things keep popping up concerning the same characters.
I don't think either would have commited this outrageous act themselves, but it seems plausible that somebody could have been hired to do the deed.
I don't think the frequent trips to the doctor, the soiling of her clothes, comments by JBR she didn't feel pretty were just coincidence. Something may have been going on and somebody had to quieten her. Again, these things going on make Nancy Krebs statements all the more important.
I saw a post removed from a site a couple months ago. The poster had stated something along the lines of he knew the facts of the case since January '96. He went on to explain the person responsible for JBR's death was a prominent person and would never spend a day in jail. There was more but he ended with he expected the FBI to one day knock on his door and ask him who killed JBR. That post was removed and not by him because the poster could not delete it.
When you have been around a long time you learn to just kinda look around for the most smoke. And there sure seems to be a lot of smoke surrounding Fleet White.
And yet, the suspicious Fleet White, the person who many IDI believe could have been involved, wrote a public letter taking the DA's office to task and demanding a special prosecutor be appointed to this case.

Someone will have to explain to me why a guilty person (who IDI claim was not being investigated by the BPD) would not just lay low and allow the DA's office to whittle wood while the case grew cold...If FW was guilty, he would have had to been insane to ask for the prosecution of this case to be taken away from Hunter and Shapiro...

“God Bless America ”

Level 2

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#203 Oct 26, 2010
Lynette wrote:
<quoted text> I agree, Logan, that the investigation of other suspects appeared very elementary. In the case of Gary Oliva, Lou Smit related: "Oliva called his friend right after the murder, crying, and said he would never be able to go to his house again, because the friend had children.
The call, Michael says, came just days after the Ramsey murder. Gary told him he had hurt a child.“He was sobbing like you’ve never heard a grown man sob or cry before in your life. And I knew it was serious. I knew this very serious.” So serious that Michael, who lived in a nearby state, called Boulder police. Michael says he left all his information on the Boulder police tip line.“I told them about the cassette tapes. I told them about the phone call. I told them about what I knew.”
What did the Boulder police do with the tip? Nothing. According to Lou Smit, the Boulder Police didn’t follow up on 95 percent of the more than 3,000 phone tips that came in. In Oliva’s case, police didn’t investigate him until nearly four years after JonBenet’s death, when Oliva was caught with drugs - and a stun gun.
Why aren’t the Boulder police taking these leads more seriously? Police have dismissed Oliva because his DNA doesn’t match evidence at the scene. The Ramseys say police have a double standard: While some suspects have been cleared because their DNA doesn’t match, they have not been cleared for the same reason.
The Ramsey investigators also related how they had to physically take evidence to the police before they would even evaluate it.
Many IDI posters have been ridiculed for saying other suspects weren't investigated enough, when you read things such as this, what other conclusion is there?
Good information, Lynette. The BPD was just about worthless in investigating non-Ramsey suspects. They obviously didn't take the leads provided to them seriously because they couldn't conceive the guilt of anyone besides the Ramseys. Neglecting to use the information about Oliva showed the extent of their arrogance and their appalling lack of skills. It may well be that Oliva was involved in JonBenet's death but we may never know. The phone call he made to his friend makes him sound guilty, and his background verifies his tendency to violence. Their letting him go while continuing their pursuit of the Ramseys is a disgrace. It's very possible the BPD interviewed the killer without realizing it because they were blinded by their obsession with the Ramseys.
VipervenomM

United States

#204 Oct 26, 2010
FW. WANTED A SPECIAL prosecutor,cause nothing went his way.And far as the Rams. are concerned it was probably under the advice of their lawyers to not talk at all after all the Bpd.failed to secure the crime 'scene' an it was the same department that with held JB'S. body unless they Cooperated, on there terms that is "unethical" at that POINT I WOULD HAVE SAID TO that police department to shove- it because that was their CHILD THAT needed to be buried right away as the Ramseys were fairly NEW to Boulder they would have not KNOWN This police department was inexperienced.Also PR. 911 call did have Emotion in her voice! Yes im sure everyone will say she was a good actress, if this is the case a Dam good one.
WV Sleuth

Washington, DC

#205 Oct 26, 2010
WHY would the child have to be buried right away? They kept Anna Nicole's body for a long time before burial. If it were MY daughter, I'd say take as long as you want with her, as *I* have nothing to hide, and MOREOVER, I want to find out who did this thing to her, so take your time, do it right, and let's get this bastard..
VipervenomM

United States

#206 Oct 26, 2010
*Lynette" Thanks for putting that out their i did'nt even know this of course there not going to investigate cause they think parents did it and it cost them to much money.Great post thanks again glad your here posting.
Truth Be Told

Brooklyn, NY

#207 Oct 26, 2010
Oh for the truth to come out about this case. I would never want to wrongly accuse someone of a crime as horendous as this - who would want to sit in that judgment seat. This case is indeed complicated - but sometimes I think possibly the answer is right before us - let the complications fall away. I've followed this case from the beginning, I don't know every little detail, and I won't pontificate using "clues". You've got to trust your gut instinct on some things. The biggest piece of evidence - the ransom note was definitely written by a women. The length, the wording, everything about it is "female". It was written by "someone" who knew the Ramseys. They even had a half-written "practice ransom note". Someone in the house that had the time to write it. The Ranson note is so obviously a "cover-up" - many online experts, handwriting analyists, forensic people agree, it wasn't a true ranson note. The "placement" of the note - everything about it was "staged". The "pineapple" in JonBenet's stomach, meaning she wasn't asleep and in bed for the night after they got home from the party - she had to be up at some point and eat it, as it was the last food in her stomach contents. "They say "the body doesn't lie". Patsy is up and wearing the same clothes as the night before, JonBenets clothes had been changed. Her body was found with her "favorite white blanket on/or next to it, in the most remote room in the house - a room within a room. I don't care what anyone says, the Ramseys behaviour was not anywhere "near normal shock/grief" after the murder of their daughter. Who wants to think that a mother/father could be capable of this crime, or the coverup of it - no one wants to think that. But whoever "covered it up" is not normal. You cannot look at this crime from a "sane mind" and be able to comprehend it at the same time. That's why police "get into the mind of the killer". On the Ramsey's part, and even for Burke at this point, nothing short of "I'll do anything, whatever it takes, I'm willing, lie detector tests, to help this crime be solved - but that wasn't the case. I do hope Burke will talk to the police, I'm sure he can remember alot from the age of 9 - we'll see. Famous cases - OJ got away with murder, Scott Peterson didn't - my gut instinct is that this case doesn't fall to far from home.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#208 Oct 27, 2010
Logan wrote:
<quoted text>Good information, Lynette. The BPD was just about worthless in investigating non-Ramsey suspects. They obviously didn't take the leads provided to them seriously because they couldn't conceive the guilt of anyone besides the Ramseys. Neglecting to use the information about Oliva showed the extent of their arrogance and their appalling lack of skills. It may well be that Oliva was involved in JonBenet's death but we may never know. The phone call he made to his friend makes him sound guilty, and his background verifies his tendency to violence. Their letting him go while continuing their pursuit of the Ramseys is a disgrace. It's very possible the BPD interviewed the killer without realizing it because they were blinded by their obsession with the Ramseys.
Do you have a source or something to go by to make the assumption about "neglecting" to use any information about anyone?

Do you really and truly believe that the BPD did not follow up on these "suspects"? Do you really and truly believe that Smit didn't investigate them?

Please source your information that these suspects that you name were not investigated "enough" or information was "neglected"

Do you KNOW that or are you just speculating? If you KNOW that, I'd love to read the documentation to support what you and others keep saying on a daily basis. Every day, several times a day, the IDI come on and claim that "some" people weren't investigated thoroughly or enough or at all

How do you know?

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