German Property Lawsuit Raises Fears ...

German Property Lawsuit Raises Fears in Polish Town

There are 42 comments on the Deutsche Welle story from Apr 12, 2007, titled German Property Lawsuit Raises Fears in Polish Town. In it, Deutsche Welle reports that:

“I would say to the people in Lidzbark Warminski, 'You live on someone else's property.' This lawsuit is legitimate.”

Hundreds of inhabitants of a northern Polish town are on the sharp end of a legal battle rooted in Germany's World War Two defeat, a case that has revived barely buried fear and hatred. via Deutsche Welle

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Deutsche Welle.

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Aureliusz

Australia

#1 Apr 12, 2007
The town was originally an Old Prussian settlement known as Lecbarg until being conquered in 1240 by the Teutonic Knights. So let’s get some prospective on things. Not Germanic to being with.

In 1309 the settlement received town privileges. After the Second Peace of Toruń in 1466, the town became part of the Polish province of Prussia. And they should be grateful that they weren’t expelled in 1466.

Afterwards 1945, the town was ceded to Poland after 173 years of Prussian and German rule and its ethnic German population was finally expelled, as it should have been 173 years earlier.

The fact of the matter is that Poland has as much rights to that region if not more then these barbaric so called Germans. Let’s not forget the original Prussian trips where completely exterminated by the Teutonic Order. And these Prussians are not the rightful owners of the territory. Maybe in 1945, we should have exterminated these so called Prussians. It would certainly solve a lot of problems.

But we can play history games for days without an agreement. The fact of the matter is that no amount of crying and shouting will, by the Prussians Germans, return these lands back to them.

A little lesions, why it’s not wish to start wars you may lose more then just your pride.
Aureliusz

Australia

#2 Apr 12, 2007
correction sorry .....Prussian
Tribes not trips...ooops
Adam

Flinders, Australia

#3 Apr 12, 2007
Aureliusz wrote:
correction sorry .....Prussian
Tribes not trips...ooops
Aureliusz you sound like Ray now. You are both mad at times. Talking about dispersion of Poles or extermination of Prussian Germans leads the world nowhere. It is a crime. I wonder if there is any administrator on this forum and why he allows comments of this kind.
Adam

Flinders, Australia

#4 Apr 12, 2007
Aureliusz wrote:
correction sorry .....Prussian
Tribes not trips...ooops
And two more things. It is true these were lands inhabited originally by the Prussians who were not Germanic but Baltic people, related to Lithuanians. The Tutonic Knights exterminated them almost completely and stole the name from them. This happened in the XIII century. As a result Prussian language is dead now.
Also, the town was in Poland between 1466 and 1772-95. Not sure about the last date exactly and that is why I hyphenated it. And in 1466, Poles did not think about exterminating Germans, now calling themselves Prussians. Why would they? The German Prussians actually wanted to be part of the Polish Republic and fought against the Teutonic Knights in the Thirteen Years War (1453-1466). They wanted to be under Polish rule. Poland was more tax-friendly, Teutonic Knights were very fiscal. And in Poland, they could enjoy more privilages. This only shows that people back then were not so nationalistic as they are now. They could be Germans and still wanted to be under Polish rule and vice versa. The same was with Danzig-Gdansk. Gdansk actively fought against its incorporation into Prussia when Poland was being dismembered at the end of the XVIII century.
A Kraut

Germany

#5 Apr 13, 2007
Polacks will do everything for some cents!

Germans will buy their land back...just like that, without hassle and the Poles will say "Thank you!"
Aureliusz

Salisbury, Australia

#6 Apr 13, 2007
A kraut ....you better be more concerned about the Turkish invasion in Berlin then Poland. From what I remember being in Berlin, to see a German was as difficult as seeing a native Indian in America.
A Kraut

Germany

#8 Apr 13, 2007
Is there a nest of Polacks in Australia???

You play no role in Europe you know?
You can blather what you want but when Germans buy Poland you can do nothing...down under...:)
Adam

Flinders, Australia

#9 Apr 13, 2007
A Kraut wrote:
Is there a nest of Polacks in Australia???
You play no role in Europe you know?
You can blather what you want but when Germans buy Poland you can do nothing...down under...:)
You must be very unhappy knowing that your chancelor, Angela Merkel, has some Polish roots. Keep dreaming about your Lebensraum.
Earthpig

Gdansk, Poland

#10 Apr 13, 2007
Aureliusz wrote:
Let’s not forget the original Prussian trips where completely exterminated by the Teutonic Order. A
um.... what ethnicity do you think most Teutonic Knights where?
and anyways, crazy logic like your whole post is the source of the bad mojo that has been and will continue to go on with Israel and its neighbors.
Let us also consider the implications of that logic if applied to the western regions of Poland after Stalin redrew the map of eastern Europe. Or cities like Lwow.
forced resettlement is a horrible idea, no matter whom it is applied to.
A Kraut

Germany

#11 Apr 14, 2007
>>"...You must be very unhappy knowing that your chancelor, Angela Merkel, has some Polish roots. Keep dreaming about your Lebensraum..."<<

Yeah...somehow every German of somewhat importance has of course polish roots...
Kopernikus, Klose, Merkel...you can't stop stealin, can't you!
Adam

Sheidow Park, Australia

#12 Apr 14, 2007
A Kraut wrote:
>>"...You must be very unhappy knowing that your chancelor, Angela Merkel, has some Polish roots. Keep dreaming about your Lebensraum..."<<
Yeah...somehow every German of somewhat importance has of course polish roots...
Kopernikus, Klose, Merkel...you can't stop stealin, can't you!
Nobody in Poland is going to steal Merkel. She is not Poland's leader. And for the Poles she is a leader of a foreign country. The fact that one of her grandfather was a Pole was revealed by herself. That is it. The very fact must be a thorn in your back.

“Not Austrian, don't start!”

Since: Apr 07

Bedford, UK

#13 Apr 14, 2007
Ok I'm following this Australian-German discussion, and guess what: You're both right. It is true that virtually the whole of Western Europe is being invaded with Polish workers. Particulary in England and Germany this is the case. It's not a bad thing, in England we need those workers. In Gemmany, which is still under the shadow of mass-unemployment people may see this differently. Ironicly however, the Poles we have in England all drive luxery cars that even me myself can't afford. With Polish numberplates. This has always puzzeled me...If they are so poor, and they flock to other countries in search for work, how come they drive expencive cars?

Observandum

“Amicus humani generis ”

Since: Apr 07

planet Earth

#14 Apr 14, 2007
The southern part of what used to be called "East Prussia" and is now occupied by Poland was never legal German territory to begin with. Hence it's nonsense when Germans seek any compensation from the Polish state due to alleged loss of property.
The only and true owners of "East Prussia" are the descendents of the indigenous population of the land (Old Prussians, Prusai) who lived there for over four thousand years before being expelled by the Soviets and Poles at the end of WW II.
The period of German occupation spans from the German Order's invasion in 1231 to the end of Nazi-Germany in 1945.

The wealth of the Prussians was well known by their neighbors and beginning in the 9 th century, invasions occurred frequently by Northern people, continuing one century later by aggressions from the southern Slavs, the Poles. During the mass migrations from the 5 th to 7th century throughout Europe, the Prussians remained as one of the few people in their homeland.

During the 11 th and 12 th centuries, the Prussian tribes united and organized counter attacks against the Polish aggressors who were unable to fight the Prussians and officially called the German Order for help.

Equipped with modern war tools and tactics, gained by experience from their crusading past, the war machine of the German Order began invading Prussia in 1231, mass-murdering, maiming, subjugating and oppressing the Prussians. In spite of being outnumbered, the Prussians heroically resisted and fought ferociously for their freedom for 53 years against an enemy supported by European allies. When they finally surrendered they had to forego without legal rights for centuries, with prohibition of their Baltic language and religion, expropriation of land and goods or expulsion from their homeland.

Only the descendents of this indigenous population are entitled to ownership of the land with its borders similar to those of former "East Prussia".

The dw-article above is sponsored by neo-Nazis in the German media and government, just as is the so-called Prussian Trust which is a misnomer. It has nothing to do with the true Prussians who are currently living in diaspora all across the world.
Rey

Felixstowe, UK

#15 Apr 14, 2007
Road wrote:
Ok I'm following this Australian-German discussion, and guess what: You're both right. It is true that virtually the whole of Western Europe is being invaded with Polish workers. Particulary in England and Germany this is the case. It's not a bad thing, in England we need those workers. In Gemmany, which is still under the shadow of mass-unemployment people may see this differently. Ironicly however, the Poles we have in England all drive luxery cars that even me myself can't afford. With Polish numberplates. This has always puzzeled me...If they are so poor, and they flock to other countries in search for work, how come they drive expencive cars?
Dear Road, ironically it is our own fault! One must take into account that a large number of the Polish economic migrants are very capable and even talented people. They are capable, strong and very intrusive; something like the Goths within the Roman Empire. They are making their incursion at the time when our British society is declining on all grounds. They do not only pursue the goal to possess goods; they add a certain spiritual, intellectual and cultural touch to their economic invasion;they are mostly honest, educated, with a firm character and the belief in what they do. And that aspect, which is invisible, is the key to their success. Regardless an appreciation, I would dare to support partly your worry; certain Polish characters tend to moan and drop tears for how poor they are, what a disaster affected their lives in their country, but, once gained power, wealth and privileges, become most arrogant, conceited, out of touch with their own community to which they used to belong (not only Poles, of course). There could be a saying: a wealthy Polish is the worst creature in the world. This, of course, may contain a bias, but in general terms it is true.
Today, Britain is a very vulnerable country, with problems derived from multiculturalism, from the collapse of moral standards wit reference to all the fields of the national political and socio-economic life. It is NOT just Poles who incur, fall into Britain; the whole “barbaric” world from the former colonies is raiding their former “Metro“; however, the Poles are not much in their numbers like the rest of the invaders from the “Third World”, but they are the most educated, capable, very hard working and powerful migration force. The truth is, when they do not function well on their own Polish soil, on the foreign soil they are the best organized and are the and are the most productive people. We can call them the Goths of the 21st century….(and I like to visit a Polish restaurant in my village; perfectly clean, top quality service, superb dishes!).
Adam

Oakden, Australia

#16 Apr 14, 2007
Observandum wrote:
The southern part of what used to be called "East Prussia" and is now occupied by Poland was never legal German territory to begin with. Hence it's nonsense when Germans seek any compensation from the Polish state due to alleged loss of property.
The only and true owners of "East Prussia" are the descendents of the indigenous population of the land (Old Prussians, Prusai) who lived there for over four thousand years before being expelled by the Soviets and Poles at the end of WW II.
The period of German occupation spans from the German Order's invasion in 1231 to the end of Nazi-Germany in 1945.
The wealth of the Prussians was well known by their neighbors and beginning in the 9 th century, invasions occurred frequently by Northern people, continuing one century later by aggressions from the southern Slavs, the Poles. During the mass migrations from the 5 th to 7th century throughout Europe, the Prussians remained as one of the few people in their homeland.
During the 11 th and 12 th centuries, the Prussian tribes united and organized counter attacks against the Polish aggressors who were unable to fight the Prussians and officially called the German Order for help.
Equipped with modern war tools and tactics, gained by experience from their crusading past, the war machine of the German Order began invading Prussia in 1231, mass-murdering, maiming, subjugating and oppressing the Prussians. In spite of being outnumbered, the Prussians heroically resisted and fought ferociously for their freedom for 53 years against an enemy supported by European allies. When they finally surrendered they had to forego without legal rights for centuries, with prohibition of their Baltic language and religion, expropriation of land and goods or expulsion from their homeland.
Only the descendents of this indigenous population are entitled to ownership of the land with its borders similar to those of former "East Prussia".
The dw-article above is sponsored by neo-Nazis in the German media and government, just as is the so-called Prussian Trust which is a misnomer. It has nothing to do with the true Prussians who are currently living in diaspora all across the world.
Your post is generally correct, but there are some fundamental faults in your argument.
First, the Polish-Prussian rivalry before the coming of the Teutonic Knights was not an agression as we understand it today. These were border and raid incursion for loot, on both sides.
Second, you imply that after Teutonic Knights' agression and basically an extermination campaign, those original Prussians somehow survived physically as a group despite descrimintion to our times. This is not true. Their nation or tribal associations were exterminated, some people fled and left the country and only a minute part of wealthy tribsmen were incorporated into the Teutonic elite. But those incorporated had to inter-marry with Germans and they dissolved as such. There are no desendants of Prussians today, unless you mean some remote genes. In that way, even in Poland there are people who by their surname can claim scraps of Prussian ancestry. These are very remote decendants of those who fled to Poland. Your surname stays, if you will not change it or currupt it in some way, but what kind of Prussian are if since XIII century your family had been marrying exclusively non-Prussians and your family has no memory of belonging to such a group.
If was convienient for many Germans to claim Prussian ancestry as this gave such claimant some aura of mystery and ancient pride of belonging to vanished people, plus this claim supported their claim to the land they had taken away form original Prussians.

“Not Austrian, don't start!”

Since: Apr 07

Bedford, UK

#17 Apr 14, 2007
Rey wrote:
<quoted text> Dear Road, ironically it is our own fault! One must take into account that a large number of the Polish economic migrants are very capable and even talented people. They are capable, strong and very intrusive; something like the Goths within the Roman Empire. They are making their incursion at the time when our British society is declining on all grounds. They do not only pursue the goal to possess goods; they add a certain spiritual, intellectual and cultural touch to their economic invasion;they are mostly honest, educated, with a firm character and the belief in what they do. And that aspect, which is invisible, is the key to their success. Regardless an appreciation, I would dare to support partly your worry; certain Polish characters tend to moan and drop tears for how poor they are, what a disaster affected their lives in their country, but, once gained power, wealth and privileges, become most arrogant, conceited, out of touch with their own community to which they used to belong (not only Poles, of course). There could be a saying: a wealthy Polish is the worst creature in the world. This, of course, may contain a bias, but in general terms it is true.
Today, Britain is a very vulnerable country, with problems derived from multiculturalism, from the collapse of moral standards wit reference to all the fields of the national political and socio-economic life. It is NOT just Poles who incur, fall into Britain; the whole “barbaric” world from the former colonies is raiding their former “Metro“; however, the Poles are not much in their numbers like the rest of the invaders from the “Third World”, but they are the most educated, capable, very hard working and powerful migration force. The truth is, when they do not function well on their own Polish soil, on the foreign soil they are the best organized and are the and are the most productive people. We can call them the Goths of the 21st century….(and I like to visit a Polish restaurant in my village; perfectly clean, top quality service, superb dishes!).
@Rey: I completely agree with you. I travel to Poland once in a while for work, and I find that the Poles in Poland are very different to the Poles in Britain. Poland Poles appear to be more polite, and not quite so loud as Poles in Britain, does that make any sence to you?
Adam

Mawson Lakes, Australia

#18 Apr 15, 2007
Road wrote:
<quoted text>
@Rey: I completely agree with you. I travel to Poland once in a while for work, and I find that the Poles in Poland are very different to the Poles in Britain. Poland Poles appear to be more polite, and not quite so loud as Poles in Britain, does that make any sence to you?
Road, I will be ironic. If we are to use information provided by William on this forum I will sugest a hypothesis that will explain your observation. But I do not believe in my own hypothesis. Here it is. Possibly these Poles in Britain are those pro-European, libertarian, liberal, liberated, pro-capitalism, anti-clerical, pro-abortion, cynical and ready to enrich themselves at any cost and anti-Kaczynskis -- mostly sons and daughters of red barons who had never been red but joined the communist party before 1989 for material enrichment. Whereas those who stayed in Poland are conservatives who vote for the Kaczynskis, clerical country "bumpkins" who still go to church, do not divorce, have decent morals, will to share what they have with other people (even if they have little), show compassion, value family and social equality and integration and urge to be polite to other people.
Rey

Felixstowe, UK

#19 Apr 15, 2007
Adam wrote:
<quoted text>
Aureliusz you sound like Ray now. You are both mad at times. Talking about dispersion of Poles or extermination of Prussian Germans leads the world nowhere. It is a crime. I wonder if there is any administrator on this forum and why he allows comments of this kind.
Adam, DON’T BLACKMAIL! You grapple with the words taken out of the context, again. When I say “IF (if, if, if!) I were…” it does NOT mean that I WOULD!!! Try again to see, that I realize how impatient and eager were the King of Prussia, Tsar of Russia and Emperor of Austria to dismantle Poland in 1794-8... They did it in four years time, which shows, how fast the political and military actions were taken! I have made such a statement ONLY to DEMONSTRATE the vulnerability of the geo-political position of Poland which STILL exists! You, and your counterpart Aurelius, should understand that in the first stance; are you both intelligent enough to distinguish a nuisance from NUANCE, or you are no more than POSEURS?! See you
Seabutler

Felixstowe, UK

#20 Apr 22, 2007
German property lawsuit has no substance with reference to the package of the auxiliary annexes to the Odra-Nisa Border Treaties with Farther Amendments ratified by Poland and Germany. Any claim is and will be unsound. Sorted.
Glenn

London, UK

#21 May 4, 2007
It's naive to assume that ANY question in history is ever finally "sorted". We could throw in the fact that there was confusion over which particular Oder river was meant. And it's pretty rich to slam the "Germans" for "taking" away land from the Prussians when the Poles did the same to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Individualism, liberalism are the solutions and NOT nationalism!

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