Germany's highest court rules against smoking ban

KARLSRUHE, Germany - A German ban on smoking in indoor public places should be overturned for small bars, the country's highest court ruled on Wednesday.The Karlsruhe-based Federal Constitutional Court said ...

[PicassoIII]

No temporary injunction, the ban is Kaput!!
They states are welcome to try again, but it seems the tide has turned.

"An attempt by the federal government to introduce a nationwide ban failed in 2006, and many bars and restaurants in Berlin flouted the ban when it came into force in January.
Hans-Juergen Papier, the court's president, said the law would need to be redrawn by the end of 2009. Until then, smoking should be allowed in bars and restaurants of less than 75 square meters that lack a separate smokers' area, he said."

"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"

Allow me to repeat what the German Supreme Court said there.
"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"

What a radical thought. Adults assuming responsibility for their actions.

My favority parts...
"Almost a third of the population smokes in Germany, where lighting up became a badge of freedom and tolerance after Hitler's Nazi regime cracked down on the habit in the 1930s."

And..

"As most of Germany's states have similar smoking laws to Berlin and Baden-Wuerttemberg, the ruling is likely to set a precedent for future complaints."

A precendent of bans being unconstitutional on bars and discos.....

Prost!!

[fluteman greg]

PicassoIII wrote:

"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"
Allow me to repeat what the German Supreme Court said there.
"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"
What a radical thought. Adults assuming responsibility for their actions.

Great post! ROFLMAO@antis!!!!

So now we know the German courts are smarter than the antis in the USA. LOL!

[get it]

PicassoIII wrote:

No temporary injunction, the ban is Kaput!!
They states are welcome to try again, but it seems the tide has turned.
"An attempt by the federal government to introduce a nationwide ban failed in 2006, and many bars and restaurants in Berlin flouted the ban when it came into force in January.
Hans-Juergen Papier, the court's president, said the law would need to be redrawn by the end of 2009. Until then, smoking should be allowed in bars and restaurants of less than 75 square meters that lack a separate smokers' area, he said."
"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"
Allow me to repeat what the German Supreme Court said there.
"In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults"
What a radical thought. Adults assuming responsibility for their actions.
My favority parts...
"Almost a third of the population smokes in Germany, where lighting up became a badge of freedom and tolerance after Hitler's Nazi regime cracked down on the habit in the 1930s."
And..
"As most of Germany's states have similar smoking laws to Berlin and Baden-Wuerttemberg, the ruling is likely to set a precedent for future complaints."
A precendent of bans being unconstitutional on bars and discos.....
Prost!!

The way to address this is to ban smoking COMPLETELY in bars and discos, with no exceptions for bars that have separate areas for smokers. THAT would "even" the playing field, which was the problem with this particular ban.

[PicassoIII]

fluteman greg wrote:

So now we know the German courts are smarter than the antis in the USA. LOL!

The Germans have always been 'smarter' in many ways.
Highways; many areas having NO speed limit and yet far safer than US interstates.
Cars:
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/Helga2.jpg
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/Helga.jpg
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/042306kelliX24.j...
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/rolf07shine.jpg

And of course......beer. And this comes from a fan of UK ales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot

[PicassoIII]

get it wrote:

The way to address this is to ban smoking COMPLETELY in bars and discos.

You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.

It will never happen there.

[fluteman greg]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>The Germans have always been 'smarter' in many ways.
Highways; many areas having NO speed limit and yet far safer than US interstates.
Cars:
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/Helga2.jpg
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/Helga.jpg
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/042306kelliX24.j...
http://pavlo.interaccess.com/rolf07shine.jpg
And of course......beer. And this comes from a fan of UK ales.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot

I know... but I was only talking about our (USA) antis. I like to think "real" Americans (non-antis) are as smart as the Germans, but maybe not. I agree about the German highway system.

German beer. Mmmmmmmmmm.... enough said.

[u cannot own me]

Loving it:

"Almost a third of the population smokes in Germany, where lighting up became a badge of freedom and tolerance after Hitler's Nazi regime cracked down on the habit in the 1930s."

Germany of all places, how fitting!!!

[Frank]

get it wrote:

<quoted text>
The way to address this is to ban smoking COMPLETELY in bars and discos, with no exceptions for bars that have separate areas for smokers. THAT would "even" the playing field, which was the problem with this particular ban.

The problem is there isn't enought popular support for a total ban in Germany. I know thats hard for you to except but the smoking ban was not as popular in Germany as its been here. And cut the crap about leveling the playing field. You azzholes always push these laws and then claim the playing field must be leveled when businesses begin to suffer as a result so the solution then becomes even stricter laws. The playing field was level before when every business had a choice. Good for the Germans. They are apparently smarter then Americans when it comes to protecting private property and personal liberty.

[dissident77]

PicassoIII wrote:

What a radical thought. Adults assuming responsibility for their actions.

omg! that's the end of the world!!!
adults must be infantilized or anarchy and chaos will kill us all!! hehe

but seriously: hold back your praises on how the germans do it right. this is definitely not the direction germany is heading. adults are considered r3tards and potential criminals more and more by the german government.

more surveillance and less freedoms. pushing the limits of our constitution hard, sometimes even breaking them. that's where we're going at the moment...

[Carol]

This is nothing but a cowardly nit-pick. The fact is the anti-smokers have systematically committed scientific fraud to falsely blame smoking and passive smoking for diseases that are actually caused by infection. The anti-smokers are guilty of flagrant fraud for ignoring more than 50 studies, which show that human papillomaviruses cause over ten times more lung cancers than they pretend are caused by secondhand smoke. Passive smokers are more likely to have been exposed to this virus, so their fraudulent studies, which are based on nothing but lifestyle questionnaires, are cynically DESIGNED to falsely blame passive smoking. The 50-plus HPV studies:

http://www.smokershistory.com/hpvlungc.htm

In fact, lifestyle questionnaire studies were invented by the Nazis in the first place! A fact which is lost on this stupid judge. Look at the hypocrisy of a country that goes into hysterics over mere symbols, WHILE SWALLOWING WHOLE THE ACTUAL SUBSTANCE OF NAZISM! There will be nothing to celebrate until the anti-smokers' Nazi pseudo-science has been discredited, along with all of those who espouse it, including the fake smokers' rights advocates who are continually trying to shove it down our throats.

[Lakshmi72]

u cannot own me wrote:

Loving it:
"Almost a third of the population smokes in Germany, where lighting up became a badge of freedom and tolerance after Hitler's Nazi regime cracked down on the habit in the 1930s."
Germany of all places, how fitting!!!

lol

I have been claiming all along that the total prohibition of smoking is

*dictatorship*.

It should be up to the pubs whether they declare their places as "smokers" or "non-smokers".

[PicassoIII]

dissident77 wrote:

this is definitely not the direction germany is heading. adults are considered r3tards and potential criminals more and more by the german government.
more surveillance and less freedoms.

It cannot be as bad as the UK with the 'safety' cameras and all...
Is it?
*sigh*
Part of the insidious governmental creep that the EU has brought about i'm sure. Hang in there, the pendulum will swing.....it always does.

[get it]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>
You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.
It will never happen there.

NO, that is NOT what they said.

[get it]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>
You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.
It will never happen there.

Here, for all of you that are TOO STUPID to read:
"The Karlsruhe-based Federal Constitutional Court said small bars were at an unfair disadvantage due to the ban, rendering it in breach of the constitution. The measures came into effect in most of Germany's 16 states at the start of the year."
http://tinyurl.com/5vmg3d

In case you want to read what the German court said in the original german:
http://tinyurl.com/6pgsfw

"Hans-Juergen Papier, the court's president, said the law would need to be redrawn by the end of 2009. Until then, smoking should be allowed in bars and restaurants of less than 75 square meters that lack a separate smokers' area, he said."

IF the law is redrawn allowing NO smoking inside these venues, it is acceptable.

[u cannot own me]

I just noticed this part, seems the antis don't get their way there

An attempt by the federal government to introduce a nationwide ban failed in 2006, and many bars and restaurants in Berlin flouted the ban when it came into force in January

[u cannot own me]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>
You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.
It will never happen there.

read it and weep numb nuts

In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults.

[get it]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>
You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.
It will never happen there.

"Bis zu einer Neuregelung, die der Gesetzgeber bis zum 31. Dezember 2009 zu treffen hat, gilt die Vorschrift fort, nicht jedoch für solche Diskotheken, zu denen ausschließlich Personen ab vollendetem 18 Lebensjahr Zutritt erhalten, mit der Maßgabe, dass sich in einem Nebenraum im Sinne von § 7 Absatz 2 Satz 1 des Nichtraucherschutzgesetzes Baden-Württemberg keine Tanzfläche befinden darf."
What this is saying basically is that requiring a separate room for smokers (which is not a dance floor) is a hinderance of trade.

The ruling recognizes the authority of the lawmakers to make smoking bans as long as the smoking bans do not have exceptions.

The ruling firther recognizes that the smoking ban is valid in places where people under 18 years old may enter, regardless of the size of the venue and recognizes that a large venue may have a separate room that allows smoking even if they allow children under the age of 18 to enter. The ruling also recognizes the necessity of protecting workers.

Basically, the legislature has until sometime in 2009 to correct these discrepancies and in the meantime small venues and discos may allow smoking as long as they do not allow anyone under the age of 18 to enter.

[get it]

u cannot own me wrote:

<quoted text>
read it and weep numb nuts
In the case of the disco, the court said the ban should be repealed for discos open only to adults.

If you would read the ruling in the original german
http://tinyurl.com/6pgsfw
you would have a much better understanding of the ruling. The problem is that they required smoking to be in a separate area. The ruling felt that that was unreasonable in that not everyone would be able to do it an it would result in an uneven playing field. The court did not overturn most of the law and directed the legislature to fix the problems in the law sometime in 2009. Until that time, discos and venues under 75 square meters could allow smoking.

Since you have difficulty understanding concepts in english, you will have extreme difficulty understanding concepts in german.

[get it]

PicassoIII wrote:

<quoted text>
You don't 'get it'....do you.
The court said the bans shouldn't apply to businesses that only adults enter, AT ALL!!
That's THEIR answer to the uneven playing field.
It will never happen there.

"Federal drug commissioner Sabine Baetzing called Wednesday for an all-out ban on smoking in public places, noting that such measures had been accepted in other countries with a weakness for tobacco such as Ireland and Italy."
http://tinyurl.com/6yjxxw
"The judges agreed and said the states would have until 2010 to decide whether to introduce a blanket smoking ban, as is the case in Bavaria in the south, or one that allows fair exceptions for single-room bars and clubs.

Chief justice Hans-Juergen Papier made clear, however, that the court saw public health as more important than the right to smoke or run a bar and would rule accordingly in any further challenges to the laws.

"A general smoking ban in restaurants and taverns would have more protection under the constitution than the right to practise one's profession as a barkeeper or the freedom to smoke," he said. "

[u cannot own me]

get it wrote:

<quoted text>
Basically, the legislature has until sometime in 2009 to correct these discrepancies and in the meantime small venues and discos may allow smoking as long as they do not allow anyone under the age of 18 to enter.

I doubt that that will happen, failed before. It appears that those who remember don't wish to repeat
An attempt by the federal government to introduce a nationwide ban failed in 2006, and many bars and restaurants in Berlin flouted the ban when it came into force in January