Bob Barr: The Crucifixion of Lance Armstrong

Sep 11, 2012 Full story: Townhall 36

Lance Armstrong, one of the greatest endurance athletes of modern times, who won the grueling Tour de France bicycle race a record seven consecutive times from 1995 to 2005, has been stripped of all awards and prizes he won during his storied cycling career.

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turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#21 Sep 21, 2012
skicoach wrote:
Turtle, you seem to be very well informed so please tell me exactly what Hincappie has to say about Lance Armstrong. I mean, I live in France and I actually saw him win his tours and it mean't a great deal to me - but I haven't heard or seen anything credible that could undo this. As far as I know neither has anybody else. What happened to the American constitution and the right to presumption of innocence and a fair trial - not a kangaroo court? I gather that the "due process" that USADA has applied is completely transparent, isn't it? That was a month ago now so where is the evidence? You can't fight a witch hunt - that's why there is a constitution prohibiting it. I would have had no objection whatsoever regarding a proceeding from the Department of Justice - but this is a real joke.
Can not tell you anything about what hincappie has to say about lance. Unfortunately lance giving up the fight and running from the truth's which would have come out during arbitration, have left us without lots of the evidence proving he cheated and lied. Including the testimony and evidence from his good old cheating pal, George.
It is a real shame that this has occurred but hopefully people will come to see Lance's soundbite and bullying technique of defense for what it is without good old george. I think at the moment with lance, most people are in grief. "He turned out not to be the household saint he was held up to be for more than ten years. They are going through the five stages of mourning. First we have shock and denial (I can't believe he dropped his defense!), then anger (the USADA is after him!), now quickly into bargaining (So what? Everyone else cheated too!) Depression and acceptance will take a bit longer, but I think those who are fastidiously defending him will soon go silent and the national consciousness will be to bury his memory far deep in the back of the mind" Well that's my hope anyway.
We are not talkinng about a little known domestique in the team participating in any cycle race. This man has used fraudulent means to become what he is now with all the social (and eventually political) prestige that ensued. he even abused this to harrass and intimidate those who stood up to him. This is a totally unprincipled exploitation of other peoples' trust and confidence while implicating those who willingly aided and abetted this massive sporting hoax. Furthermore, he was not content with one or two or even three TdF titles but 7 and the hope to make a comeback and continue where he left off. This is just sheer arrogance.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#22 Sep 21, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
ski - charge sheet was issued 12 June this year.
USADA advised it shall be a few weeks before their Report to UCI/WADA/Armstrong is ready to release.
It looks like to me USADA have been caught out by Armstrong decision not to participate and now the evidence they would have tabled before now needs to be stronger for the formal issue rather than amended via the Hearing process.
It doesn't come across as being well managed if you consider if it was anyone of us who was at the end of no information.
We shall all see in time if the case is robust or not and we can all see if it was a worth the effort or not.
One factor that has made the process distasteful is the same efforts have not been made for other athletes let alone cyclists and the attraction of the Armstrong name appears to be sufficient vindication for USADA.
Can not tell you anything about what hincappie has to say about lance. Unfortunately lance giving up the fight and running from the truth's which would have come out during arbitration, have left us without lots of the evidence proving he cheated and lied. Including the testimony and evidence from his good old cheating pal, George.
It is a real shame that this has occurred but hopefully people will come to see Lance's soundbite and bullying technique of defense for what it is without good old george. I think at the moment with lance, most people are in grief. "He turned out not to be the household saint he was held up to be for more than ten years. They are going through the five stages of mourning. First we have shock and denial (I can't believe he dropped his defense!), then anger (the USADA is after him!), now quickly into bargaining (So what? Everyone else cheated too!) Depression and acceptance will take a bit longer, but I think those who are fastidiously defending him will soon go silent and the national consciousness will be to bury his memory far deep in the back of the mind" Well that's my hope anyway.
We are not talkinng about a little known domestique in the team participating in any cycle race. This man has used fraudulent means to become what he is now with all the social (and eventually political) prestige that ensued. he even abused this to harrass and intimidate those who stood up to him. This is a totally unprincipled exploitation of other peoples' trust and confidence while implicating those who willingly aided and abetted this massive sporting hoax. Furthermore, he was not content with one or two or even three TdF titles but 7 and the hope to make a comeback and continue where he left off. This is just sheer arrogance.
GeeMan

Bo'ness, UK

#23 Sep 25, 2012
turtle what a load of absolute nonsense of conjecture, opinion and completely not understanding what is going on.

Try and make a post with something to say with facts and not rely on everyone else to educate you all the time.
You keep saying thats not right or true but you just say nothing in return

You are absolutely clueless about Cycling as a whole and this matter as well.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#24 Sep 25, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
turtle what a load of absolute nonsense of conjecture, opinion and completely not understanding what is going on.
Try and make a post with something to say with facts and not rely on everyone else to educate you all the time.
You keep saying thats not right or true but you just say nothing in return
You are absolutely clueless about Cycling as a whole and this matter as well.
You really do have a misguided and narcissistic view of yourself, la and your own comments geeman. You worship of la leads you to impersonate his bullying tactics all to often used by la and now you with people you and he disagree with. I am happy to agree to disagree with you on most of our debate, yet you seem unable to without resorting to flat track bullying. Shame on you.
GeeMan

Bo'ness, UK

#25 Sep 26, 2012
turtle what are my views on LA? What fact do you know about them?

I have no problem with you making a point that has relevance or helps to make the 'debate' better BUT you still have to achieve that.

Re-posting what someone says and try to pick holes in it without any facts and when you are challenged to make any you just say its all there.
The challenge is go and find it and post it but AGAIN we see nothing.

If you find someone saying demonstrate your point instead of open ended comemnts without substance and you dont and look unable then dont add more nonsense of bullying.
Try reading your own posts and you will see exactly what I mean as it has no facts in it and if there is they are scavanged from others like me.

You have added nothing and continue to add nothing to the debate and the CHALLENGE is try writing something cogent that is NOT a take on someone else's post, something new of your own.

I doubt you can do that as you have been nable so far but the challenge is there, or is that me bullying you into doing something constructive.

Prove me wrong turtle and produce something that has facts and is your own.
GeeMan

Bo'ness, UK

#27 Sep 26, 2012
wang that last post was so insightful, a real Freudian Slip!

A FULL length mirror no less...wow.

I dont know what you do with your FULL length mirror and I dont want to know but the real irony with your post is that you never say anything meaningful ever and this time you are totally unaware that you have said far more than you realised.

I cant wait to see what you post next.
GeeMan

Bo'ness, UK

#29 Sep 26, 2012
wang, or is it turtle, your opinion is like your posts, vacuous.

Try and explain where I misrepresent.

I dont expect anything other than noise, nonsense and abuse as you have been unable to avoid that so far and make no effort.

Try and keep glimpses of your private life out of it though!
GeeMan

Coventry, UK

#31 Sep 27, 2012
wang.....you have absolutely no original or independant comments on the subject matter of this thread, vacuous is something you cannot get away from.

Mirroring me or anyone else doesnt help you either.

I just want to see if you are at all ble to keep to thesubject matter of this thread and make an independent original comment. Well I suppose a cogent comment would be a start.

wang...?
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#32 Sep 28, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
turtle what are my views on LA? What fact do you know about them?
I have no problem with you making a point that has relevance or helps to make the 'debate' better BUT you still have to achieve that.
Re-posting what someone says and try to pick holes in it without any facts and when you are challenged to make any you just say its all there.
The challenge is go and find it and post it but AGAIN we see nothing.
If you find someone saying demonstrate your point instead of open ended comemnts without substance and you dont and look unable then dont add more nonsense of bullying.
Try reading your own posts and you will see exactly what I mean as it has no facts in it and if there is they are scavanged from others like me.
You have added nothing and continue to add nothing to the debate and the CHALLENGE is try writing something cogent that is NOT a take on someone else's post, something new of your own.
I doubt you can do that as you have been nable so far but the challenge is there, or is that me bullying you into doing something constructive.
Prove me wrong turtle and produce something that has facts and is your own.
In other posts and comments you have repeatedly questioned USADA's right to charge la (and by association, the people involved and a part of what USADA are calling a conspiracy) and associates with doping and cheating. As much as i understand your confusion on this, due to the cross over and unclear nature of who, how, and when organizations have the lead in this matter. It is a difficult area and i am sure i have said before that the complex nature of the fight against doping. Mainly due to the world and national governing bodies having to play catch up with the cheats. This is why WADA and USADA have evolved and their remits being assigned to them. Hopefully the following will help clarify why armstrong and the other participants being brought to arbitration by USADA are being, and legally so. Why it is important for the enforcement of their rulings throughout all governed sports who are signatories to these anti-doping agency's.
USADA has clarified in the past that non-US citizens are covered under the WADA code which places the option to take action against individuals upon the signatory that discovers the evidence of an anti-doping violation, regardless of whether that individual was licensed by that agency.
In regards to the non-licensed individuals, WADA cited article 15.4.1 of its code which reads: "Subject to the right to appeal provided in Article 13, Testing, therapeutic use exemptions and hearing results or other final adjudications of any Signatory which are consistent with the Code and are within that Signatory's authority, shall be recognized and respected by all other Signatories."
This means that any action taken by USADA will be expected under the code to be enforced by all signatories worldwide, since the purpose of creating WADA in 1999 was to provide a system of anti-doping rules that could be agreed upon by all sports in all countries which agreed to the code. An effective system brought in as part of the "catch up" required to prevent more doping in sport as a whole.
"Without this harmonization and mutual recognition the fight against doping in sport would revert to the pre-WADA days when there was little uniformity and consistency in terms of sanctioning and the decisions handed down to athletes and others," A statement from WADA read.
This very concept is now and has been under attack by Armstrong's attorneys, who had filed a federal lawsuit questioning the jurisdiction of USADA and calling the proceedings against him "unconstitutional".
So in the interests of sport on a wider scale, Armstrong seems happy to try and undermine what progress has been made in the fight against doping. The fact that Armstrong's lawsuit was dismissed demonstrates the validity of USADA's sanctions and wADA's backing.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#35 Sep 28, 2012
In other posts and comments you have repeatedly questioned USADA's right to charge la (and by association, the people involved and a part of what USADA are calling a conspiracy) and associates with doping and cheating. As much as i understand your confusion on this, due to the cross over and unclear nature of who, how, and when organizations have the lead in this matter. It is a difficult area and i am sure i have said before that the complex nature of the fight against doping. Mainly due to the world and national governing bodies having to play catch up with the cheats. This is why WADA and USADA have evolved and their remits being assigned to them. Hopefully the following will help clarify why armstrong and the other participants being brought to arbitration by USADA are being, and legally so. Why it is important for the enforcement of their rulings throughout all governed sports who are signatories to these anti-doping agency's.
USADA has clarified in the past that non-US citizens are covered under the WADA code which places the option to take action against individuals upon the signatory that discovers the evidence of an anti-doping violation, regardless of whether that individual was licensed by that agency.

In regards to the non-licensed individuals, WADA cited article 15.4.1 of its code which reads: "Subject to the right to appeal provided in Article 13, Testing, therapeutic use exemptions and hearing results or other final adjudications of any Signatory which are consistent with the Code and are within that Signatory's authority, shall be recognized and respected by all other Signatories."

This means that any action taken by USADA will be expected under the code to be enforced by all signatories worldwide, since the purpose of creating WADA in 1999 was to provide a system of anti-doping rules that could be agreed upon by all sports in all countries which agreed to the code. An effective system brought in as part of the "catch up" required to prevent more doping in sport as a whole.

"Without this harmonization and mutual recognition the fight against doping in sport would revert to the pre-WADA days when there was little uniformity and consistency in terms of sanctioning and the decisions handed down to athletes and others," A statement from WADA read.

This very concept is now and has been under attack by Armstrong's attorneys, who had filed a federal lawsuit questioning the jurisdiction of USADA and calling the proceedings against him "unconstitutional".
So in the interests of sport on a wider scale, Armstrong seems happy to try and undermine what progress has been made in the fight against doping. The fact that Armstrong's lawsuit was dismissed demonstrates the validity of USADA's sanctions and wADA's backing.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#36 Sep 28, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
above post to Geeman, sorry for the it mess
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#37 Sep 28, 2012
really did not mean to reprint it many times. What a cuthbert
GeeMan

Rosyth, UK

#38 Sep 30, 2012
turtle thanks for taking the time to provide a deeper and more reasoned outlook on your thoughts which make great reading and help 'stoke' the debate, which is what is needed and I was asking for. Greatly appreciated.

On the specific points you have noted I would say that the USADA process is not a legal one as noted in your post but I would concede that you have probably written this on the basis of the own rules and procedures with the legal term use in that context, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I donít see it as Legal.

I would disagree that I have repeatedly questioned USADA rights to charge LA as they can d what they see as fitting to their role. I have in fact seriously questioned how they have done it and at times worked out with their own code in process as well as reasoned argument to form their charges not providing details that LA has received fair consideration to determine the charges, i.e. his rights to have a lesser charge than a greater charge, how they determined the 8 year statute of limitation was bypassed which needs a committee to do but we donít know if that happened or not and when as LA would have the right to Legal/Personal attendance at this.

In addition to this USAD claim from February 3 this year they compiled in 5 months sufficient evidence the Federal Investigation could not do across about 5 different divisions of the US Government including the FBI and not use this evidence on their own. Tygart was actually present at some of the testimony hearings that by law must remain secret but all those involved are now within USADA evidence base according to USADA.
The argument to determine how this was achieved shall be interesting but is in itself not insurmountable to achieve.

The retested samples USADA say they have from the FFC Lab are in fact repeating the exact same argument that WADA went through when they somehow found out from the secret code used to hold athletes samples which ones were LA's and had them retested. The report showed positive EPO and WADA announced this to the world which led to L'Equipe reporting it after WADA leaked it to them what was happening and a DR at UCI sent out past tests also.
What happened with this case of 4 positive tests was UCI carried out a full blown review via Belgium Lawyer Mr. Vrijam who proved the process, procedures and science behind WADA claims was wrong. WADA own scientist conceded there is in fact insufficient data to determine the natural behaviour of naturally occurring EPO in suspended samples and this is still the case.
Armstrong was acquitted of all charges as we all know and since that date WADA has challenged UCI at every opportunity on testing etc. UCI have on many occasions explained to WADA their testing regime and procedures are dated and used cutting edge scientists to explain why and what needs done. WADA in response tried to make all scientists in their regime sign up to an 8 years silence protocol and only make comments approved by WADA, Michael Ashended the leading scientist in doping refused and resigned on the basis that he cannot be bought and silenced to control his actions and words.

WADA you see have a lot to answer to also in their approach.

So we have already been through the retesting route before and the bitterness between UCI and WADA, LA and L'Equipe, LA and associated US Government and associated funded bodies all run deep.

WADA as you pointed out have and are playing catch up and implementing measures some of us may not agree with but they see as important in their fight but as they have been re-writing the Code it now contains aspects where WADA Code over rules Home Laws in whichever country it is being applied. That has caused serious concerns and those shall soon be aired publically as US and UK law lords have told WADA they will not stand for this and they must work with Home laws and not the other way around but they shall do everything to support them otherwise.
GeeMan

Rosyth, UK

#39 Sep 30, 2012
turtle again thanks for the previous post and hopefully you will see from above that as a long term cycling fan that has seen the whole LA issues for years work their way around the world and back he has managed, rightly or wrongly, to remain a clean athlete based on the procedures of the day.

I have also said openly it is almost certain, in my opinion, he has taken PED' but so did everyone else because you simply cannot ride in the peloton of the day and not finish with the allotted time percentage without it especially up the climbs.

The issue is how itís being done and the motives behind it are seriously questionable and the simple fact that USADA on the day they charged LA should have had the File complete and audited for issue but we still have not seen it.

It also looked likely Tygart was going looking to issue the File in/around 2 October as he announced to L'Equipe in his exclusive interview (again to rub salt into LA wounds, in my opinion) only to have an announcement made from his Office it would be 15 October and not end of September.
Not the actions of a man who appears to be in full charge of whatís going on after announcing how certain he is. That may come over as a snipe at Tygart which it is but the argument is as valid now and it was on the day the charges were made of where is the evidence.

Hope that helps you see in more detail what I am thinking and why and not based on recent events but a long term view of the issues Cycling has within itself and with those they are supposed to work closely with.

The biggest issue I see is that WADA donít get on with other associations and especially not UCI and the actions appear FROM BOTH SIDES to be motivated by history and one-upmanship and that makes it highly likely that UCI are going to make a song and dance about USADA File when they get it and USADA and WADA know this, history tells us it will happen.

LA is a very measured operator and has friends in UCI, US Cycling, Government etc. and as Tyler Hamilton said in his interview he does not see that LA has finished with this just yet.
I donít think so either and as I noted above and in the last post the comments on the constitution and WADA desire to overrule Home Laws will likely come to the fore.

These are my own reasoned opinions based on what I have seen in the past and see just now. What will actually happen will come in time and all we can do is debate it and see what seems reasonable or not and we donít need to agree with each other but as you have done recently you have put some meat on the bones of your comments and without it whether from Me, You or anyone else itís just noise without it.
Iím sure you have thoughts on what I have posted and I do genuinely now look forward to reading them, or anyone elseís comments, apart from wang of course who so far has been unable to produce anything except abusive noise.
lee512

Portland, OR

#40 Oct 6, 2012
I am familiar with what the media has stated, and what the charges are, which then led to the punishment. However, I still have not heard why they were credible, as no I was not in the private meetings with Lance and his attorneys, nor in the courthouse when the trial went on. I only know what I was privy to know from the news, as a US citizen. But I know based on what was never refuted and was told to all of us public that Lance like the other cyclists, as also stated by his attorneys who had his medical records, revealed all substances he took, as part of and independent of his cancer. He then for each subsequent year, after winning, was able to perform again and win again, 7 times. What would be his motivation to put himself in such of a public eye regarding cancer, and the Tour de France and other causes he supported, if he were guilty of hiding and getting away with (during those years)taking of forbidden substances? Also, what would be his motive to then on top of this try to incite other cyclists to take blood transfusions, and steroids that are part of medical care for chemo and cancer? This does not make sense and again would draw attention to himself in a negative light. Also why would so much time need to go by before any of this came to light? If there is due process, and true witnesses, it would have come out the first year, to prevent 6 more years of medals, and that is another thing. If he were guilty, why would he think well, let me rub it in, and win not one or two, but 7 out of 7 medals, to draw even more attention to myself as if I am not only an amazing cancer survivor, but a bionic man! I do not believe he was insane, and all of these actions seem insane. There seems to be McCarthyism here, and there was enough jealousy and politics to provide a motive, but again these are opinions as I could never know the exact facts unless I were Lance, the attorney's, the witnesses, those that did the testing, or anyone else DIRECTLY INVOLVED.
GeeMan

Crossgates, UK

#41 Oct 7, 2012
Lee I donít think you will find anyone directly involved in the case being able to post on here.

On the matter of inciting other team mates to take transfusions and EPO is, I understand, a critical part of USADA case to allow them to take the case further back than 8 years.

Personally I cannot see what they say Armstrong did could practically have happened and this evidence is therefore a convenience to suit the case!
To help clarify my point, as I see it, a rider has very little time to spare racing for 21 Stages run each day with 2 possibly 3 rest days to break it up and it should be noted that the start of the next stage is normally not where the last one started and some can be 100+km away and the team needs to be packed and away to get there as well as unpack and rest to start the next day to start the whole process again.
Armstrong was Team Leader who had more media and sponsor commitments to fit in also which takes him away for longer periods of time each day so when did he fit in the management and administration of what USADA allege he did?
If we take a view it did happen it would be done by Team Management and not a rider who was there to race and rest his life planned meticulously from start to finish.
How a rider who is alleged to have pushed his body beyond that it could normally achieve by doping ending up exhausted and in need of recovery possibly repairs then have enough energy and time to do all the media/sponsor work and then look after other team mates who would be further down their recovery, massage, repair and rest route than he was and he then had to go through the same, it doesnít compute for me I am afraid.

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