Ullrich blasts 'inhumane' drug tests

There are 20 comments on the Eurosport story from Jul 23, 2009, titled Ullrich blasts 'inhumane' drug tests. In it, Eurosport reports that:

EXCLUSIVE! Jan Ullrich has attacked the doping controls at this year's Tour de France, labelling them "inhumane" in an interview with Eurosport.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Eurosport.

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“The truth will set you free...”

Since: Jul 07

Lisbon

#1 Jul 23, 2009
I can only agree with Jan !!!

Control is one thing, this is assault.
In no situation (other than a police investigation with proper warrant) should someone be forced to share his private actions.

If it is required that samples are to be collected by a certain person, so be it. But that should happen in a proper facility where the control may be properly monitored by the independent entity.

Otherwise, I call it "invasion".
I don't think it's "inhumane", but it's definitely "extremely very much improper".
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#2 Jul 23, 2009
mogwai73 wrote:
I can only agree with Jan !!!
Control is one thing, this is assault.
In no situation (other than a police investigation with proper warrant) should someone be forced to share his private actions.
If it is required that samples are to be collected by a certain person, so be it. But that should happen in a proper facility where the control may be properly monitored by the independent entity.
Otherwise, I call it "invasion".
I don't think it's "inhumane", but it's definitely "extremely very much improper".
As much as I do understand from where the French organizers and the AFLD are coming from in their attempt in fighting the doping in cycling, I have to wonder if they trully have any laws in place in validating this type of behavior.

Looks like that they have brought in their Vichy government in order to acting like a group of Nazis again!!!
Jeremy

Fullerton, CA

#3 Jul 24, 2009
This is what it has come to. It's a tough line that we have to follow. Does someone need to pat you down before you go to the bathroom to make sure you don't jack it up in the stall? Where do we draw that line. I see both sides of the issue here. On one hand, the sport has gotten into this mess, and this is the painful process that will have to come out of it. On the other hand, I'm not one of the clean riders that has to pay the price of the sins of past dopers.

"The process works. There have been no scandals. We are scaring the dopers off."

"A controller comes into the room and stays with them all the time. From where I'm sitting that's inhumane."

El Paso, you may be wondering, "Jeremy, you charismatic stallion, what does this all mean?" Here's a translation of those last two quotes:

IT CURES CANCER! IT GIVES YOU AIDS!
Adrian Davies

Richmond, VA

#4 Jul 25, 2009
I have always believed that the drug testing system is severely flawed. To start with, if the offender is French, then there is a damm good chance that the whole thing will be swept under the rug... remember Richard Veronque?? How many others I wonder??
The whole setup would be more credible if;
a) the lab doing the testing did not know who they were testing, and,
b) Several samples should be sent to several different labs, who of course, should not know who the sample came from....
The French have tried for years to pin a positive drug test on Lance Armstrong. He must be the most tested man in cycling history....

“I Love Life, People & Animals”

Since: Feb 07

El Paso, Texas

#5 Jul 25, 2009
Jeremy wrote:
This is what it has come to. It's a tough line that we have to follow. Does someone need to pat you down before you go to the bathroom to make sure you don't jack it up in the stall? Where do we draw that line. I see both sides of the issue here. On one hand, the sport has gotten into this mess, and this is the painful process that will have to come out of it. On the other hand, I'm not one of the clean riders that has to pay the price of the sins of past dopers.
"The process works. There have been no scandals. We are scaring the dopers off."
"A controller comes into the room and stays with them all the time. From where I'm sitting that's inhumane."
El Paso, you may be wondering, "Jeremy, you charismatic stallion, what does this all mean?" Here's a translation of those last two quotes:
IT CURES CANCER! IT GIVES YOU AIDS!
Well Jeremy, you certainly have energy to last here.

For me in drug testing --- I've been there and I've done that!

During one tour of duty in Germany during the late 1970's, I was responsable to collecting urin samples and documenting them.

Yup, our soldiers already knew all the tricks in beating the system and urin collecters---providing said collecters were sloppy and lazy in their work.

It's really a very simple process:

1. Drop your draws and urinate into the bottle in my full view of you.

2. If you can't urinate into bottle---than you get to stay sitting in this office in view of the first sergeant and or commander until you can finally produce urin.

3. Refuse or try doing otherwise---UCMJ punishment.

Oh, and the reason why these urin collecters are contacting the riders so early in the morning is so that they can get the rider before they have hit the bathroom and urinated.

How would teams and sponsors feel if a rider was kept out of that day's stage of the TDF because the rider had already urinated before the collector had contacted them.

You might try rethinking both sides of this issue.

“The truth will set you free...”

Since: Jul 07

Lisbon

#6 Jul 27, 2009
My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:
(...) For me in drug testing --- I've been there and I've done that!(...)

It's really a very simple process:
1. Drop your draws and urinate into the bottle in my full view of you.
2. If you can't urinate into bottle---than you get to stay sitting in this office in view of the first sergeant and or commander until you can finally produce urin.
3. Refuse or try doing otherwise---UCMJ punishment.(...)
I think that's exactly what Jan Ullrich meant.

Having someone stalking you in the early hours is almost inhumane.
Collecting the urine in person would be an alternative...
realt

Dublin, Ireland

#7 Jul 27, 2009
I don't think getting up at 6 and having someone you don't know around you all day examing everything you do is healthy. These guys have a grueling 3 week race and its not fair. Although having said that if riders are going to cheat they will find a way to anyway.

“I Love Life, People & Animals”

Since: Feb 07

El Paso, Texas

#8 Jul 27, 2009
mogwai73 wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that's exactly what Jan Ullrich meant.
Having someone stalking you in the early hours is almost inhumane.
Collecting the urine in person would be an alternative...
realt wrote:
I don't think getting up at 6 and having someone you don't know around you all day examing everything you do is healthy. These guys have a grueling 3 week race and its not fair. Although having said that if riders are going to cheat they will find a way to anyway.
I have to wonder if either of you want doping out of cycling completely.

Most of us here want doping out of cycling for good.

Cheers
realt

Dublin, Ireland

#9 Jul 29, 2009
My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I have to wonder if either of you want doping out of cycling completely.
Most of us here want doping out of cycling for good.
Cheers
Of course i want doping out of cycling but you just can't say that for ever more nobody EVER is going to take drugs. Are you very naive or what.
Go raibh maith agat.

“The truth will set you free...”

Since: Jul 07

Lisbon

#10 Jul 29, 2009
My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:
(...)
I have to wonder if either of you want doping out of cycling completely.
Most of us here want doping out of cycling for good.
Cheers
I don't see what have I written that may be considered "pro-doping".

Was Lance Armstrong guilty of taking a shower this Spring before he was controlled ?... Was he trying to hide something ?...

That's the type of doubts which may arise if the controls are schedulled, but do you really see it as a step back or a step forward ?
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#11 Jul 29, 2009
I wasn't beating either of you up.

I'm a mental health and addiction therapist. And I have conducted urin collection in the military. So, I probably have a better understanding about this problem than many other people may have.

The blood and urin collection needs to take place unannounced. It also needs to actually take place before the riders gets out of bed in order that they still have the urin in their system.

If they get up and urinate before the urin collecter arrives, than the process is screwed up. That's where the collecter than has to keep the rider in view until the next chance of attaining a urin collection.

But, to many this process doesn't seem to be always taking place as some experts are in the beliefe that the rider or team is getting advanced warning.

As crimes advance in variance, so do the policies and laws in fighting the crimes. During this process human rights begin to readjust and even decrease.

The entire process right now is a "one step forward, two steps backwards."

Posts #6 & #7 would hinder the process of fighting doping in both sport and cycling.

Cheers

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#12 Jul 30, 2009
Hi Adrian, you make some good points...
Adrian Davies wrote:
I have always believed that the drug testing system is severely flawed. To start with, if the offender is French, then there is a damm good chance that the whole thing will be swept under the rug... remember Richard Veronque?? How many others I wonder??
The whole setup would be more credible if;
a) the lab doing the testing did not know who they were testing, and,
b) Several samples should be sent to several different labs, who of course, should not know who the sample came from....
The French have tried for years to pin a positive drug test on Lance Armstrong. He must be the most tested man in cycling history....
for many of us (BUT our favorite Frenchman), we wonder at how the 'system' re-defined itself after Festina (AND after Virenque's delayed confession (two years of denials? one day of tears in court and he was able to retire as a beloved hero))...

I think it would be better to promote a lab 'OUTSIDE' of the country of the event, much as the ITF took samples from Roland Garros (French Open) by plane to Montreal a couple years ago (although they claimed the 'reason' was cost-related)... Your idea has merit, but I query about the 'sorting out' process: who's to be in charge of remembering which sample(s) went to which lab(s)?

Another 'idea' could be to mix into the 'daily received Samples' more 'control urine'(heh heh: if it were received as Samples from TdF TV or Radio/press announcers, we could have a blast with cocaine and pot readings... heh heh... Seriously though, if ten riders' samples were received with seven 'citizen' samples, then it could be interesting to see how that worked out...

ZENjd

“The truth will set you free...”

Since: Jul 07

Lisbon

#13 Jul 30, 2009
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas wrote:
(...) I'm a mental health and addiction therapist. And I have conducted urin collection in the military. So, I probably have a better understanding about this problem than many other people may have.(...)
Thanks for the insight, MOeP.

I have to agree with you in what fighting doping is concerned, but there must be a way to collect a valid/useful sample without conflicting with the person daily routine...

I know/understand this process cannot be based on trust, it has to be somewhat invasive... but it sounds excessive to me having a person invading an athlete's room at a certain hour to perform any kind of process...

My parents always said to me that a good night sleep is the solution to most of the human kind problems... so, it pains me to see that top level athletes are being deprived of that...

Do you have any suggestions on this ?

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#14 Jul 30, 2009
One can't help but say 'cycling brought it upon itself...'...

But one can help, by wondering what brings the media (especially in France, for Tree's Sake...) down on ONLY cycling on a near-daily-basis (although cross-country skiing takes it once every four years, swimming once in a blue moon, track-n-field etc...)?

If Ullrich is making the point that someone can 'snap' by being woken up (the 'whereabouts' hours? damn hard to find them!), what the current rule appears to be, is for a 'one-hour' window daily, that can be updated as often as necessary (even by SMS I think...):

QUOTE:
- The requirement for top-level athletes included in the registered testing pool of either their IF or NADO to specify 1 hour each day (between 6 a.m. and 11 p.m.) during which they can be located at a specified location for testing. These athletes do not have to identify the 60-minute time-slot at a home address, but they can if they wish to. Previously this was a 24/7 requirement.
ENDquote

source (a Q&A on 'whereabouts from WADA):
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/q...

Now Ullrich or the journalist (ahem: sports reporter) may be confused with 'in competition' testing, which would have a 'vulture' showing up unannounced...

Funny stuff, this going-for-glory-and-whining (whinging to our UK-educated blokes)... If I were those guys, I'd bank the checks and submit all the cups of pee anyone asked me for...

(I'd tell you about Jacquie in Montreal but... heh heh)

z)))

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#15 Jul 30, 2009
realt

Dublin, Ireland

#16 Jul 30, 2009
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas wrote:
I wasn't beating either of you up.
I'm a mental health and addiction therapist. And I have conducted urin collection in the military. So, I probably have a better understanding about this problem than many other people may have.
The blood and urin collection needs to take place unannounced. It also needs to actually take place before the riders gets out of bed in order that they still have the urin in their system.
If they get up and urinate before the urin collecter arrives, than the process is screwed up. That's where the collecter than has to keep the rider in view until the next chance of attaining a urin collection.
But, to many this process doesn't seem to be always taking place as some experts are in the beliefe that the rider or team is getting advanced warning.
As crimes advance in variance, so do the policies and laws in fighting the crimes. During this process human rights begin to readjust and even decrease.
The entire process right now is a "one step forward, two steps backwards."
Posts #6 & #7 would hinder the process of fighting doping in both sport and cycling.
Cheers
What do you make of De Lucas case then from the Giro? Do you think he did it?
They should come up with a better system with testing i do agree with that it is unfair at the moment but what other way can they do it?
Any suggestions that would not have them up a 6am every day?

“I Love Life, People & Animals”

Since: Feb 07

El Paso, Texas

#17 Aug 5, 2009
Sorry for taking so long in responding back to you Mogwai73. I've been out of town to a week long convention/seminar.
mogwai73 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the insight, MOeP.
I have to agree with you in what fighting doping is concerned, but there must be a way to collect a valid/useful sample without conflicting with the person daily routine...
Good point and question. Main reason that all the organizations need to work together.

I don't believe that the ASO, AFLD, and UCI gave us any example of working together so far.
mogwai73 wrote:
<quoted text>
I know/understand this process cannot be based on trust, it has to be somewhat invasive... but it sounds excessive to me having a person invading an athlete's room at a certain hour to perform any kind of process...
To make this process really work, you have to trust "NO ONE!"
mogwai73 wrote:
<quoted text>
My parents always said to me that a good night sleep is the solution to most of the human kind problems... so, it pains me to see that top level athletes are being deprived of that...
Do you have any suggestions on this ?
It's beginning to look like we might be making some improvement in doping in cycling.

But, it's also looking like some are not learning.

And it's looking like some might be finding new methods of cheating/doping, while staying ahead of the lab tests.

So, I'm coming closer all the time to that point of "Life Long Ban" from sports!

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#18 Aug 6, 2009
Here are some interesting (and LONG) readings for anyone really interested, from some 'Devil's advocates' who claim (I may not have the right to insinuate they have the same rational basis for their decisions) that the 'System' implemented through WADA is 'doomed to fail' in several years...

Blog: Sports Scientists:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/very-...
__________

Current anti-doping policy: a critical appraisal
Bengt Kayser, Alexandre Mauron and Andy Miah

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472...

QUOTE:
One purpose of the rules of sports is to define the 'level playing field' on which athletes compete and thus to articulate the notion of fair-play. Currently, anti-doping policies are part of these rules since doping practices are typically seen as cheating. We do not question the need for rules in sports nor the possibility of finding workable 'level playing field' definitions. However, we do find the anchoring of today's anti-doping regulations in the notion of fair-play to be misguided.
endQUOTE

(Dr Kayser is here in GVA! I've half a mind to go track him down...)
__________

As you read this, bear in mind that the author(s) claim(s) "We don't see any practical way to alter the system in place today." (Paraphrased... I couldn't find the sentence...)

ZENwatch
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#19 Aug 6, 2009
ZENmud wrote:
Here are some interesting (and LONG) readings for anyone really interested, from some 'Devil's advocates' who claim (I may not have the right to insinuate they have the same rational basis for their decisions) that the 'System' implemented through WADA is 'doomed to fail' in several years...
Blog: Sports Scientists:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/very-...
__________
Current anti-doping policy: a critical appraisal
Bengt Kayser, Alexandre Mauron and Andy Miah
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472...
QUOTE:
One purpose of the rules of sports is to define the 'level playing field' on which athletes compete and thus to articulate the notion of fair-play. Currently, anti-doping policies are part of these rules since doping practices are typically seen as cheating. We do not question the need for rules in sports nor the possibility of finding workable 'level playing field' definitions. However, we do find the anchoring of today's anti-doping regulations in the notion of fair-play to be misguided.
endQUOTE
(Dr Kayser is here in GVA! I've half a mind to go track him down...)
__________
As you read this, bear in mind that the author(s) claim(s) "We don't see any practical way to alter the system in place today." (Paraphrased... I couldn't find the sentence...)
ZENwatch
We pointed much of this out by ourselves and it's good to see that others have reached the same conclusion.

It'll take every organization and people involved in cycling to rebuild that process.

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#20 Oct 4, 2009
maybe the UCI can start to refine its already-avant-garde system, now that there's no 'oligarchy' of FR teams to overwhelm the rest of them
:-)

(a post-UCI nix: BBox & Cofidis comment)

Zdawn

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