Landis and Lance: Truth, Lies and Evidence

May 26, 2010 Full story: Tour de France News 210

By this point, the initial flurry of reaction over Floyd Landis' allegations has died down and a few general memes are already in place.

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Since: Aug 10

Greensboro, NC

#207 Aug 8, 2010
JohnT wrote:
Read Dave Walsh's book "From Lance to Landis"..... it raises many strong points (with very credible testimony) that at minimum beg for better answers than Lance has provided so far. One would have to be an absolute ostrich - with their head buried deep in the sand - to dismiss the many pieces of evidence pointing at Armstrongs guilt.
But first...read the book (the whole book)...and re-check your opinion when you're done.
Personally, I come away with the opinion that Lance is a great athlete and cyclist; a truly fierce competitor no doubt --- but not a clean winner of the Tour de France.
Furthermore, Lance has maliciously robbed Greg LeMond of a tremendous amount of credit that he deserved for his great (CLEAN) victories in the TdF...and in the process, Lance has damaged LeMonds legitimate income potential by his self-serving attacks against the man who truly deserves the title of "America's Greatest Cyclist so far"......Greg had the integrity to quit the sport while still strong enough to win rather than turn to doping just to keep up.
This is my somewhat educated opinion....before you attack it, please read Walsh's book.
Not that I am disagreeing with you. I, too, believe that Lance's career was aided by PEDs. I believe he tested negative because what he was taking at the time was not yet banned and I think when everything comes out (and it will) that will be his defense.

However, whose to say that Greg Lamond was clean. Just because he says he was doesn't make it so. Back in the late 70s and early 80s (when I was racing) PEDs weren't and issue. People took stuff and we knew it and nothing was ever said about it nor was anyone ever tested (at least I never saw anyone get tested).

I think everyone that has ridden in the pro pelaton is suspect. I myself took copious amounts of No-doze during races. I don't know if it helped and it wasn't banned but on could easily argue caffeine is performance enhancing.

I don't condone drug use but it has been and always be a part of pro sports. And, knowing this, I think it is a shame that some riders have had their careers ended abruptly while others sally forth drugged out of their minds. Not only is the testing unreliable but the way it is carried out is arbitrary at best. And like I have said before, the teams will always have greater resources than the drug testing organizations and will always be light years ahead of them as far as PEDs are concerned. Hell, I have even heard rumors of nanotechnology being used...not in the future, but now.

To say with certainty that Greg was clean is tantamount to saying there is a God. PEDs or no PEDs these athletes are tremendously gifted and I believe we need to take the focus off the negative and place it where it belongs...on the beauty of the sport.

Since: Aug 10

Greensboro, NC

#208 Aug 8, 2010
MIKKY wrote:
there is no proof, no one has any and in till someone does we cannot believe just a sour grape whos life has been made a diaster by his own doing.
Money does not swing it fro everyone so if it was there it would be out by now. No doubt. But htis is what keeps a sport like cycling so addictive to watch and follow! the unknown and the doubt. who is, who isn't. Lets face it we wouldnt bother otherwise.
If contador wins this year then he must be on drugs. Yes? No!!, Why not Vino is a team mate. as Floyd was to Armstrong.
I wish you would all stop being player haters. Actually, you shouldn't hate anyone. I will agree that the way Floyd has gone about this is misguided, perhaps even irresponsible. However, until you've walked in a man's shoes, you shouldn't judge. Floyd is the victim (albeit, of his own making)of a corrupt system that, in my opinion, can never be fixed. As long as there are sponsors who expect their teams to produce victories, there will be performance enhancing technologies being used by the participants. Floyd should have come clean in the beginning. I don't think anyone that watched that miraculous break away said to themselves, "that was done without drugs". It was so obvious he had done something to help him recover from the previous off day that had he not tested positive I would have been utterly shocked.

Floyd is a great cyclist. He is very unpopular at the moment. What he did took a great amount of courage and I think it will change the sport. From first hand experience, it sucks losing to someone you know you are better than who you also know is on something. And for this reason, and this reason alone, performance enhancing technology will always be a part of cycling and a part of sport. Is it any wonder why Jimmy Johnson has won so many Nextel Cups. Is he really that much better than everyone else or is Chad Knaus just the greatest cheater in NASCAR?

“crystelZENmud”

Since: Jan 07

Reality City

#209 Aug 8, 2010
OldFatCyclist wrote:
<quoted text>
Not that I am disagreeing with you. I, too, believe that Lance's career was aided by PEDs. I believe he tested negative because what he was taking at the time was not yet banned and I think when everything comes out (and it will) that will be his defense.
However, whose to say that Greg Lamond was clean. Just because he says he was doesn't make it so. Back in the late 70s and early 80s (when I was racing) PEDs weren't and issue. People took stuff and we knew it and nothing was ever said about it nor was anyone ever tested (at least I never saw anyone get tested).
I think everyone that has ridden in the pro pelaton is suspect. I myself took copious amounts of No-doze during races. I don't know if it helped and it wasn't banned but on could easily argue caffeine is performance enhancing.
I don't condone drug use but it has been and always be a part of pro sports. And, knowing this, I think it is a shame that some riders have had their careers ended abruptly while others sally forth drugged out of their minds. Not only is the testing unreliable but the way it is carried out is arbitrary at best. And like I have said before, the teams will always have greater resources than the drug testing organizations and will always be light years ahead of them as far as PEDs are concerned. Hell, I have even heard rumors of nanotechnology being used...not in the future, but now.
To say with certainty that Greg was clean is tantamount to saying there is a God. PEDs or no PEDs these athletes are tremendously gifted and I believe we need to take the focus off the negative and place it where it belongs...on the beauty of the sport.
I think OFC, that it is actually 'easier' than we believe...

Greg L said 'no one clean can win the TdF against doped opponents...'(paraphrasing); and Laurent Fignon admitted, in the face of his losing battle against cancer, that he had doped during the Tours...

So how can Lemond's words be denied? When will he also confess that he was part-n-parcel of the 'Omerta' and doped "like the rest of them"?

He stood to win millions by asserting others (Lance especially) was doped...

Just another greed-head!

ZENjd

“Carpe Diem”

Since: Mar 07

Bristol UK

#210 Aug 8, 2010
My Opinion_El Paso_TX wrote:
If you had done some of this research and interaction a while back Chris, we all could have had a better dialog and interactions.
Your pointing out about World War II also holds true for Greg Lemond as he probably would have won the TDF when he had his shooting accident and Alberto Contador would more than likely won the TDF whan Astana wasn't allowed to race in the TDF.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers
How dare you compare WW11 with an accident and a disqualification (or whatever you want to call it)?
5 years! A prisoner of war!
You do write some crepe
RESEARCH!!! I told you all along that you were wrong, but no, you had to RESEARCH! What a lot of good all of your research and science did. What a waste of time and effort you had copy and pasting!
Nyse speling exsept fur 'WHAN'(when)
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

United States

#211 Aug 9, 2010
Athos wrote:
<quoted text>How dare you compare WW11 with an accident and a disqualification (or whatever you want to call it)?
5 years! A prisoner of war!
You do write some crepe
RESEARCH!!! I told you all along that you were wrong, but no, you had to RESEARCH! What a lot of good all of your research and science did. What a waste of time and effort you had copy and pasting!
Nyse speling exsept fur 'WHAN'(when)
Simply put, because all of it relates to:
Maybe
Possibly

Because we will never know what could have happened.

Cheers
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

United States

#212 Aug 9, 2010
Athos wrote:
<quoted text>How dare you compare WW11 with an accident and a disqualification (or whatever you want to call it)?
5 years! A prisoner of war!
YES, Fausto Coppi was a POW for 5 years and it is documented that he was well treated by the British.(His own Words)

Allied POWs were not treated well by the Nazis. Too many of them died in captivity.

Greg Lemond was at first in a death situation from his hunting accident. He still carries shotgun pellets imbedded in his heart.

Cheers

“Carpe Diem”

Since: Mar 07

Bristol UK

#213 Aug 10, 2010
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas wrote:
<quoted text>
YES, Fausto Coppi was a POW for 5 years and it is documented that he was well treated by the British.(His own Words)
Allied POWs were not treated well by the Nazis. Too many of them died in captivity.
Greg Lemond was at first in a death situation from his hunting accident. He still carries shotgun pellets imbedded in his heart.
Cheers
5 years as a prisoner of war and treated well by the British. Of course he was, we treated ALL of the prisoners of war well. One German told me that “They were the best years of my life” BUT FC had seen war and death, suffered captivity, been away from his family and had to readjust to a defeated Italy in turmoil. I guess many of us on the forum have been in a death situation, but not been behind barbed wire for 5 years
I see you are now supporting Greg !!!!
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

United States

#214 Aug 10, 2010
Athos wrote:
<quoted text>5 years as a prisoner of war and treated well by the British. Of course he was, we treated ALL of the prisoners of war well. One German told me that “They were the best years of my life” BUT FC had seen war and death, suffered captivity, been away from his family and had to readjust to a defeated Italy in turmoil. I guess many of us on the forum have been in a death situation, but not been behind barbed wire for 5 years
I see you are now supporting Greg !!!!
I know some veterans here in El Paso who have been behind the wire. They have shared their experiences with many of us.

I'm not supporting any rider here Chris. I'm just observing and researching as usual along with waiting to see what the outcome will be.

Cheers
steven cooper

San Francisco, CA

#215 Aug 23, 2010
Wang wrote:
<quoted text>
Regarding your first sentence using the following scenerio:
A cyclist doped (cheated).
That cyclist used masking agents to cover up their doping.
Their doping tests returned a negative result due to the success of the masking agents.
Therefore, you contend the cyclist didn't dope (cheat).
I don't agree with you on that one.
I know that a lot of people will not agree with what I wrote. In a perfect world it would be great if nobody was cheating. Perhaps that's the reason that communist ideology never succeeded although it sounded really good and fair and based on peoples honest needs.
Unfortunately, not all humans are perfect and therefore it will always be difficult to eliminate cheating.
Most athletes do not cheat during competition.....unless someone is as stupid as Floyd Landis to take someting and win the stage ...which guarantees mandatory testing in TDF. Athletes take stuff during their hardest off-season training.When they can gain an edge by training twice a day, and to do that you must recover. That hard training that you were able to survive will hopefully give you that 20-30 sec edge. Everyone else is doing the same....unfortunately!
SpeedyPete

Cape Town, South Africa

#216 Aug 24, 2010
steven cooper wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately, not all humans are perfect
Do you know any human beings who are perfect? I don't.

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