Armstrong drops fight against USADA drug charges, puts Tour titles on line

Aug 23, 2012 Full story: CBS Sports 402

Lance Armstrong said Thursday night he is finished fighting a barrage of drug charges from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, putting his unprecedented string of seven Tour de France titles at risk along with his legacy as one of the greatest cyclists in history.

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turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#113 Oct 12, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
wang you again make NO sense. What are you referring to?
Like i said who was right all along? Yep me.
I said they all doped but NO LL and GH etc were all clean well go figure they wernt and who called it?
Lets see who is right on what I said above.
US Doping Service got caught, so what is the view over here as we have seen it all before.
The problem in US is you wanted to take sides and now there are no sides to take they ALL doped.
Man how does it feel to have all your heroes busted at once and Lemond was the same with his no where rides in 89 until his 'iron' jags and win a TDF with world record TT ride.
Just a matter of interest how many euro riders are part of this sudden conscience purging thro US cycling/ None because we just sit back and watch you all lie about it all and tear yourselfs apart! Hillarious.
You have serial perjurers and liers and a drug trafficker BUT lets call LA names well so far who has commited a crime and who has not.
Man you guys are so lame your hating cant stop because you cannot face the truth LA was a pro rider like all the rest just better.
It is sooooo funny watching from our UK ivory tower of domination of cycling on the road and track.
Come over some time and see how it can be done!
From la being accused or known to have bribed opponent riders in 1993 in order to win a million dollars in the final of a three race deal. Check the supporting evidence in the usda's report it is all there. To a history of massive indemnity bonus related deals netting him tens of millions of dollars! i used to think it was being the best he wanted, now it looks like just a greed thing.
His old friend and employee seems to sum it up while he was in a disagreement with LA " that armstrong had been cheating for profit, with the use of banned substances" + that Armstrong engaged in an "evil, oppressive and dishonest scheme that equals the greatest scandal in sports history"; seems to say it all to me, this was a trusted and old friends conclusion of what la was many years ago.
Usada are not saying it out loud in their report but the details and evidence is all there in their supporting evidence. I take it they have the same suspicions as i have outlined above. I guess They just want people to find the evidence themselves and come to their own conclusions. So that la and his band of merry lawyers can not go after them on this, and that maybe witness's and colluders may find a way to bring this to the fore and la can actually be prosecuted over these allegations.
If little old me can read between some of the lines and come across what looks like a pattern of serious offending, and see evidence in the pages of supporting evidence in their publication of their reasoned decision on their site. Then sharper and more influential minds will see it and hopefully act on it. I know that some of this has been covered in the sca trial out there in the US before. But with a lot more evidence compiled and the rats jumping ship, they may get their chance again. Or would it come under some double prosecuting prevention out there in the US, not allowing lance to be challenged on the same or similar charges twice?
Anyway, we will have to wait and see :) here's wishing really hard for that outcome. By the way geeman your repeated notion of la being better or the best rider and that they were all on an equal footing as they were all cheating. Does not hold true and is a really a quite offensive claim to keep making. To the many other riders who took other avenues during that time because of the likes of la. I won't go over all the reasons again, i am sure you have read them in a earlier post by me or many other posts by others.
This guys behaviour does not need any support in any way.
Lets hope the sport can move forward without your previous claims of peds being a necessary or inevitable part of the future. They are not and should not be involved, without the likes of la being around. The man is disgusting
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#114 Oct 12, 2012
rom la being accused or known to have bribed opponent riders in 1993 in order to win a million dollars in the final of a three race deal. Check the supporting evidence in the usda's report it is all there. To a history of massive indemnity bonus related deals netting him tens of millions of dollars! i used to think it was being the best he wanted, now it looks like just a greed thing.
His old friend and employee seems to sum it up while he was in a disagreement with LA " that armstrong had been cheating for profit, with the use of banned substances" + that Armstrong engaged in an "evil, oppressive and dishonest scheme that equals the greatest scandal in sports history"; seems to say it all to me, this was a trusted and old friends conclusion of what la was many years ago.
Usada are not saying it out loud in their report but the details and evidence is all there in their supporting evidence. I take it they have the same suspicions as i have outlined above. I guess They just want people to find the evidence themselves and come to their own conclusions. So that la and his band of merry lawyers can not go after them on this, and that maybe witness's and colluders may find a way to bring this to the fore and la can actually be prosecuted over these allegations.
If little old me can read between some of the lines and come across what looks like a pattern of serious offending, and see evidence in the pages of supporting evidence in their publication of their reasoned decision on their site. Then sharper and more influential minds will see it and hopefully act on it. I know that some of this has been covered in the sca trial out there in the US before. But with a lot more evidence compiled and the rats jumping ship, they may get their chance again. Or would it come under some double prosecuting prevention out there in the US, not allowing lance to be challenged on the same or similar charges twice?
Anyway, we will have to wait and see :) here's wishing really hard for that outcome. By the way geeman your repeated notion of la being better or the best rider and that they were all on an equal footing as they were all cheating. Does not hold true and is a really a quite offensive claim to keep making. To the many other riders who took other avenues during that time because of the likes of la. I won't go over all the reasons again, i am sure you have read them in a earlier post by me or many other posts by others.
This guys behaviour does not need any support in any way.
Lets hope the sport can move forward without your previous claims of peds being a necessary or inevitable part of the future. They are not and should not be involved, without the likes of la being around. The man is disgusting
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#115 Oct 12, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
I have no doubt he was but the issues at play here are also due process or lack of it and its transfer across all sports.
I have looked at the document issued (scanned) and noted that USADA stated ahead of any hearing that Lance's Constitutional Rights were not part of the process as he gave them up under WADC rules. In the document they state the argument to go outside 8 years is under US Law! They dont define if its Stae or Federal or whatever US Law just US Law.
This could create a real issue for them if they wish to rely on US Law to hinge a part of the case and Lance declined a hearing on the basis it was unconstitutional he may look at this and suggest USADA changed the availablity of his rights after he declined as their access to US Law to find their case against him also allows Lance access to US Law to defend it, i.e. consttutional rights.
After it was stated 8 years was the limit it was always going to be hard to push that and over reaching may be the straw that breaks par of this case.
I also read with interset that the Panel to sit at the hearing is picked by USADA CEO, Travis, from a bank of approved members, which I was aware of through their rules! I also found out tonight however in a podcast on ESPN when Tim Herman noted that Judge Sparks offered USADA the opportunity there and then to agree to have an independant panel selected and have the hearing in his court under his jurisdiction and USADA declined.
The evidence will be broken down into pre-2006 and post 2006 by Lance's team as a lot of the evidence that has been tabled intestimony was also heard and rejected in the SCA hearing. Landis, Hamilton and Vaughters will be rejected as serial perjureres leaving the rest to contend with and the Scientific data has been poof tested by UCI up to 2006 against WADA so that will likely be rejected. The other scientific data that USADA say they have with positive tests doesnt actually exist it is analysis of blood profiles and that will end up with 2 specialist arguing they are both wrong.
It doesnt change the fact he did it and as far as I am concerned the clensing of souls by the riders who are now retiring is pathetic, call me omerta boy but these guys lived off Lance and will still look to do the same.
The charges he basically forced these guys is so loose it wont be pushed when you have the main guys with credibility saying it was their own choice and dont state they were forced.
I also wonder if Hincapie who admitted to bringing controlled substances to US will be charged now?
The sanctions being moote for the testifying riders is 6 months however US Cyling has said they are not aware of any communication from USADA.
Tim Herman also stated that USADA put the file on their website before adbising Lance himself.
A point worth noting regarding money is Travis Tygart had his contact changed from salary to performance related and look at what he has done with that. Also the reason the big fight over jurisdiction was not just power but hoever got it also gets the financial returns of sponsors etc that are handed back. Go figure Travis motivation when it has been filed that he is now earning more money than he was on a salary and thats without this case!
Its crooked in what went on with the doping, the process to convict is just as crooked and I hope this ends up in Court to be thrashed out so we get all the evidence on the table and the motives behind it and everyone is brought to be accountable.
You definitely thought this out well and explained your points so that anyone can understand.

I agree that everything needs to be brought into an open court and trashed out so that we can really identify the "TRUTH" along with identifying any corruption and corrupt individuals. But, I'm not holding my breath because we had already seen that these same agencies haven't really done anything about solving the doping problem in any sport, especially tHAT OF CYCLING!
GeeMan

Falkirk, UK

#116 Oct 12, 2012
turtle

All 2006 and past evidence is in the bin as all tested in court, its history read it up.

Judge Sparks offered to have hearing in his court under his rules and USADA declined because the evidence is not secure in a Legal case.

Festina 98 when LA recovering from cancer had enough EPO for all BUT LA is the mastermind.

Your spouting media garbage.

Just to keep you updated there have just been new cyclist banned for EPO, its clean now?

French Police achieved in 1 day with Festina that US Governmanet and USADA couldnt in 3 years spending $millions on the way.

What about Travis Tygart making more money now he is on performance related pay than on salary in 2009?

Was USPS bigger than East German doping regime, or USSR regime, or Romanian?
These countries got their female gymnasts and athletes preganant and aborted their kids to get the enhanvced physiology that prgnancy gives.

YOU HAVE NO PERSPECTIVE on world sport or doping in Sprot.
Tell me how LA is worse than these guys.
What about Festina scandal is that less than LA or worse?
Is LA a DR or is it that a Medical Expert adminsiters these doping plans to ensure they dont get blood clots and die, it must be LA of course.

You are so deluded and easily led.

You cannot see that the evidence is the SAME as 2010 when FDA dropped the case and USADA refused to go into Judge Sparks court.

Lets see how many titles are lost!
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#117 Oct 12, 2012
Cyclingfan wrote:
I was a pro cyclist one time and I have seen many people cheat but I have never ratted on anyone. The money and politics is so strong in cycling nowadays that people would sell their souls to the highest bidder. Lance we all know cheated to achieve to superhuman results but what is worst his best and most trusted buddies ratted on him. In my days as a cyclist we do not rat on people.
Good points! But people change their minds and from what we're read from the news media, Lance Armstrong through his behavior may have damaged some of his relationships with his former team mates.
We also do not really know what and how USADA may have swayed testimony from those same fomer team mates.

I have read what Jonathan Vaughters wrote about when he admited to doping and what caused him in coming to that level in his life. I found that it really helped to understand what those cyclists are faced with and that what many of us call a simple choice may well in fact be a very tough and difficult choice when being face-to-face with it in real time.

As a mental health therapist, it really made real sense to me.
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#118 Oct 12, 2012
Regis le cyclist wrote:
<quoted text>
But most never cheated. They were victims of grand larceny!! He made millions from cheating! Are you suggesting this is acceptable.?
Actually that would be incorrect. One of the cycling news web sites did an article about what riders would receive the 7 titles that Lance Armstrong had won and they reviewed all of the winning cyclists who were in the 2nd and 3rd place spots at those presious TDF's.

The article showed that most of those riders were also dopers.

Those same web sites in their forums aready have many cyclists stating that Team Sky and Team Great Britain are doping as well as they have been providing a lot of points that are making sense there.

I trully hope that they're all wrong in that thinking, yet we have already seen that that played out in the Floyd Landis case and now in the Lance Armstrong case as well.
Regis le cycliste

Milhaud, France

#119 Oct 15, 2012
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually that would be incorrect. One of the cycling news web sites did an article about what riders would receive the 7 titles that Lance Armstrong had won and they reviewed all of the winning cyclists who were in the 2nd and 3rd place spots at those presious TDF's.
The article showed that most of those riders were also dopers.
Those same web sites in their forums aready have many cyclists stating that Team Sky and Team Great Britain are doping as well as they have been providing a lot of points that are making sense there.
I trully hope that they're all wrong in that thinking, yet we have already seen that that played out in the Floyd Landis case and now in the Lance Armstrong case as well.
Are! The PRESS! But where is the Proof, regarding others?. It is clear in the cases of Landis and Armstrong. USADA have exposed that.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#120 Oct 15, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
turtle
All 2006 and past evidence is in the bin as all tested in court, its history read it up.
Judge Sparks offered to have hearing in his court under his rules and USADA declined because the evidence is not secure in a Legal case.
Festina 98 when LA recovering from cancer had enough EPO for all BUT LA is the mastermind.
Your spouting media garbage.
Just to keep you updated there have just been new cyclist banned for EPO, its clean now?
French Police achieved in 1 day with Festina that US Governmanet and USADA couldnt in 3 years spending $millions on the way.
What about Travis Tygart making more money now he is on performance related pay than on salary in 2009?
Was USPS bigger than East German doping regime, or USSR regime, or Romanian?
These countries got their female gymnasts and athletes preganant and aborted their kids to get the enhanvced physiology that prgnancy gives.
YOU HAVE NO PERSPECTIVE on world sport or doping in Sprot.
Tell me how LA is worse than these guys.
What about Festina scandal is that less than LA or worse?
Is LA a DR or is it that a Medical Expert adminsiters these doping plans to ensure they dont get blood clots and die, it must be LA of course.
You are so deluded and easily led.
You cannot see that the evidence is the SAME as 2010 when FDA dropped the case and USADA refused to go into Judge Sparks court.
Lets see how many titles are lost!
i find most of your points incorrect or irrelevant. I am not just saying this to disagree, a good example of irrelevant- judge sparks, festina and east german doping schemes !! your point about dr's is valid and it would be great to see la come forward and explain who , how and where. But it was lance who made millions fraudulently, he who actualy cheated, that is why the focus is on him rightly. Much of the evidence maybe similar or the same i agree. But again geeie, usada are not in a us court of law and are not under the same directions on evidence and proof. They proposed to go to arbitration which was approved by a us court of law as being fair and fit for this process! that is what the evidence was compiled for, please remember that.
GeeMan

Falkirk, UK

#121 Oct 15, 2012
turtle working backwards.

Arbitration was via USADA approved panel members approved by Tygart and the panel was selected by Tygart only. This was Judge Sparks issue of serious constitutional concerns for fairness and offered to hold it there with him.

I agree itís not a burden of proof but probability.
Although as I have said +8 years from USADA is founded in US Law and MUST be offered to LA also but it was not.

LA made $millions thatís correct but when you break that down you have Sponsors Nike, Oakley, etc all still with him.
Prize winnings he was one of the few Team leaders who put all winnings in the pot and an equal share for all. I donít see those who got more than their contracted entitlement rushing to return it.
Cycling is a Team Sport and I see it as right as equal shares.
So whilst I disagree with you I understand what you say but it needs to be analysed and see who is concerned.

I would have preferred LA to admit and move on.

The comments USADA make in their file are emotive and erroneous and they donít show when riders were done for fraud, perjury etc and that is what should be in a reasoned judgement or it cannot be reasoned and does not offer the true story of those who testify.
In a Legal case yup got and do that it has latitude but I can assure you it does not have that latitude in a hearing.

Focus on LA is not correct and EP was used from 88 onwards and transfusions since after the 2 WW.

The focus from USADA is so biased and so not what they said it was it makes you wonder why do this and undermine what you have.
it opens the door to allow others to get him off light, maybe that is the plan all along and we donít see it!!!! Politics can be fickled!
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#122 Oct 15, 2012
Regis le cyclist wrote:
<quoted text>
But most never cheated. They were victims of grand larceny!! He made millions from cheating! Are you suggesting this is acceptable.?
You are actually being very dishonest here!

Unless you can and are willing to prove your statement here!

Cheers
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#123 Oct 15, 2012
Regis le cycliste wrote:
<quoted text>
Are! The PRESS! But where is the Proof, regarding others?. It is clear in the cases of Landis and Armstrong. USADA have exposed that.
The proof is in the same place where you left your proof about your statement that France knew what the end would be!

You don't speak for France simply because you have no real idea what each and every Fremch man or woman or child are thinking at any one moment!

Cheers
GeeMan

Falkirk, UK

#124 Oct 16, 2012
El Paso what you are reading is the distinct difference between how this matter is viewed both sides of the pond.

Over here we have seen and lived with the knowledge of doping and it is taken that you need to be caught to be banned with a positive test. Having people testify that you did something wrong is not looked on too positively.

You can say it is omerta alive and well which is probably the case but the WADC Rules were originated around the testing regime and the burden of proof was with them to physically show positive tests. If your A was positive and B negative it was dropped.

Now however we are seeing the burden of proof with the rider which is not correct. You also need to remember over here USADA are no marks as they have no jurisdiction and/or influence and it p@sses off Euros that we have this guy Tygart wishing to tell everyone what they should do stripping titles.

UCI have not stripped titles yet and TDF have said they await UCI confirmation how it shall be dealt with.
The issue is a US one with all US riders deciding to throw each other under the bus and you will only see riders who have spoken out in the past speaking about this.

What will UCI do? They have 3 choices,

1 Agree with USADA and ratify.
2 Disagree with USADA and pass to CAS.
3 Conduct their own investigations like 2005.

3 is unlikely due to the press coverage.
1 cannot see happening as they have no time for WADA let alone USADA.
2 is the likely path and take them off the hook in making the sanctions, i.e. they will say we had to do what CAS advised.

We shall see in few weeks but donít be surprised when UCI tell USADA their document is poor and offers more motivated language than proof. UCI are also highly unlikely to agree with any evidence before 2006 having spent time and money disproving WADA positive tests against Armstrong.
I cannot see them taking any notice of the +8 years for the simple reason that it is based on US Law and it cannot be considered under WADC Rules or in a Swiss Court, CAS and SSS also cannot make allowances for it.

Who knows though and maybe UCI will just say OK but after the amount of comments made by USADA and WADA against them I canít see it.

This case will have ripples right through all Sport for future doping testing and sanctions.
My_Opinion_El_Pa so_Texa

El Paso, TX

#125 Oct 16, 2012
Actually GeeMan, I understand this situation and the differences of both sides of the Atlantic quite well since we had the following here involved in the Floyd Landis case.
Athos (Chris) is from Bristol, England and was a National Champion Ameatur racer, Raymond is Am/Pro cyclist from France, Gus is Canadian cycling racer as well along with Ali, another cyclist from Scotland and then we had for legal advice ZenMan who was in Switzerland working in internatiunal treaties.
I also understand the limits of jurastiction(s) very well and I know that the USADA's ruling really only affects US riders within the Uinted States unless the ASO desides to accept their ruling as well of is the CAS should rule in the favor of the USADA, which could also happen depending on the evidence that the USADA has in it's 1,000 pages in this case.
What too many people fail to see and understand is that as we here in the US have, "He is Presumed Innocent Untill Proven Guilty" is opposite of that in France and other European countries where their legal system has, "He is presumed Guilty Until Proven Innocent!"
Gus can tell you quite well that sveral of us here had oberseved the entire process of the Floyd Landis case in depth and all of the pertinent agencies that you have described to where they all acted aqnd behaved completely opposite of what we had understood after reading their by-laws and their so called rules-of-engagement.
I came up with the theme of, "Soap Opera Circus" simply because that was what we all were seeing during that time. There were just too many people doing what they felt like and not adhereing to a legal process that they had written in their own policies of their individual organizations.
The CAS seemed to be the only agency who stuck to their own rules.
As for Travis Tygart, he's more about himself and his lust for power along with detsroying riders and since Lance Armstrong had been able to hold him off for a very long time, he's become that Bull seething to kill that Little Red Flag!
Cheers
kactus Jack

Leeds, UK

#126 Oct 16, 2012
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/1...

I,m sure you've all seen this - I,m not medical or legal but after watching this does anyone else think he might have caused his own medical issues or advanced them considerably
My_Opinion_El_Pa so_Texa

El Paso, TX

#128 Oct 17, 2012
kactus Jack wrote:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners /stories/2012/10/11/3608613.ht m
I,m sure you've all seen this - I,m not medical or legal but after watching this does anyone else think he might have caused his own medical issues or advanced them considerably
Anything is possible, yet not always the case. Considering how far cancer research has advanced, in many ways we're still in the dark ages!

If you look at the various cases of doping in cycling over in wikipedia, most of them have led to heart disease rather then cancer.

What concerned my more was that there far too many people involved in that whole process, yet Lance Armstrong wasn't touched until Travis Tygart became ruthless in his quest there at USADA.

We still do not really know what or if USADA has any real evidence as I keep hearing and reading only "HEARSAY!!!"

Cheers
Anonymous

Whittier, CA

#129 Oct 18, 2012
All I know is, I've always laughed at people who wore Livestrong wristbands, thinking they were cool.

“2014 TDF”

Since: Mar 09

Boca Raton, FL.

#131 Oct 18, 2012
Greytips wrote:
1)The USADA does certainly try to pin down Armstrong by whatever means possible.
Technically, they should not be able to test Armstrong's urine and blood probes from the 90s, yet they do.
Technically, they should not make deals with witnesses, offering them exemption from punishment (e.g. doctors, team managers and other cyclists), yet they do.
Technically, they should not even have have jurisdiction in Europe, yet nobody else wants to dirt their hands on this, or contradict the USASA's claims, so they were 'given' jurisdiction... or rather, nobody else wants to have jurisdiction.
2)Armstrong, and all of his major competitors in the Tour de France were indeed cheaters, because they did take illegal substances such as EPO. Everyone knew (or suspected) about it, the cyclists, the managers, the coaches. Nobody talked about it, there was no sense of injustice.
Testimonies of retired cyclists confirm this.
Testimonies of other people involved confirm this.
Testing old blood samples (including Armstrongs) with newer test methods confirm this.
So in a way, nobody cheated, since everybody did the same right? I disagree, there have been a lot of young cyclists that gave up on competitive cycling because they were 'hinted' by their team managers that they need to dope to be successful. There is a possibility of negative long term effects when using EPO.
3)Why getting hung up on Armstrong when everybody cheated? It is a witch hunt indeed.
Because Armstrong is a symbol.
He battled cancer, he came back, he won 7 (I think) Tour de France titles. He was the hero of the sport, a symbol of what man can achieve through formidable will and effort. I do respect him for that.
However, now that it is common knowledge that the 'golden generation' of cyclists were cheaters, it all backfires on him. Many fans lost interest to the sport, sponsors bailed out. The sport wants to cleanse its image, clean their records and start fresh, and Armstrong has to pay the price. They need to take him down, his titles, his image, his credibility.
The USADA are merely doing the dirty job, with an hard-working Travis Tygart on the helm that tries to promote his career.
Other cyclists are simply not worth the effort.
Notice how they do want to strip Armstrong of his Tour titles, but they do not, however, want to crown the 2nd placed cyclists as champions... they do not want to start all over with this after all (!)
4)Armstrong is doing the right thing. Strategically, it is pointless to fight for a lost cause and get himself exposed.
That way there will still be a lot of people left that believe in him, just as there are a lot of people that believe wrestlers don't take steroids.
5)It is difficult to condemn Armstrong. He is definitely a fine athlete and he 'de facto' had to take EPO to keep up with the competition and accomplish his dreams and ambitions. He is also a good person. Nobody back then had the balls to expose the sport, and to be honest, if someone did, his career (and life) would be over.
Life can be harsh sometimes.
"It is difficult to condemn Armstrong."
For me, it's easy; if he didn't do it, even if for the sake of his 5 kids' future reputation, he should have fought it to the end. Quitting is easy and he didn't win the TDF 7 times for taking the easy way out.
"Never stop fighting,'till the fighting is done." Kevin Costner playing the role of Elliot Ness in The Untouchables.
FTR, I'm an amateur endurance cyclist. I don't race, but I have ridden several centuries and have ridden three Livestrong rides in my area, and three TDC's for the American Diabetes Association. I love the sport and IMHO, by not defending against these accusations, he has brought shame on the sport of cycling.
To not defend against something is tantamount to an admission of guilt.
Jus sayin.
GeeMan

Falkirk, UK

#132 Oct 19, 2012
As noted the health issues we see related to doping in cycling are more heart related.

However as EPO has a very limited clinical effects history for use in healthy users there is no way can say itís use has no long term effects or not compared to other substances of the past era. It may prove to be neutral with no effect or inversely it could have huge health problems to come. Asbestos is one that comes to mind as ticking time bomb.

Time shall tell.
My_Opinion_El_Pa so_Texa

United States

#133 Oct 19, 2012
Not fighting a battle is pretty much consided throwing in the towel and most people agree that it amounts to an admition of guilt.

Example is whenever anyone on trial for murder and they elect in not taking nthe stand to defend themselves really amazes me simply because I know that if I was in that situation, no one would be able to stop me from testifying.

But, I'm not in their shoes and it's legally their right to nt take the stand. So, the ame goes for Lance Armstrong, yet we all know that the majority of public opinions will go against him.

Actually EPO has had a drastic effect on the health of some riders who had died and their wifes tellig about it afterwards.

Problem with legal drugs as well as illegal drugs is that each person can react to them differently, but there is a better chance of health problems from the illegal drugs in comparison to the legal drugs.

Best choice is just don't dope. But, easier said then done as we've learned from Jonathan Vaughter's recent written account about doping in cycling!

Cheers
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#134 Oct 20, 2012
My_Opinion_El_Paso_Texa wrote:
Not fighting a battle is pretty much consided throwing in the towel and most people agree that it amounts to an admition of guilt.
Example is whenever anyone on trial for murder and they elect in not taking nthe stand to defend themselves really amazes me simply because I know that if I was in that situation, no one would be able to stop me from testifying.
But, I'm not in their shoes and it's legally their right to nt take the stand. So, the ame goes for Lance Armstrong, yet we all know that the majority of public opinions will go against him.
Actually EPO has had a drastic effect on the health of some riders who had died and their wifes tellig about it afterwards.
Problem with legal drugs as well as illegal drugs is that each person can react to them differently, but there is a better chance of health problems from the illegal drugs in comparison to the legal drugs.
Best choice is just don't dope. But, easier said then done as we've learned from Jonathan Vaughter's recent written account about doping in cycling!
Cheers
Agree wholeheartedly with your comments My_Opinion_El_Paso_Texas. One point you make really stands out to me as a point i have been banging on about to others who post here without them accepting or taking it onboard. "Problem with legal drugs as well as illegal drugs is that each person can react to them differently" i have repeatedly stated in argument to the often cited "it was a level playing field", and it just go's to show "lance would be the winner of 7 tdf" Irrelevant of ped's being apart of cycling or not. As your point succinctly makes clear this is not the case. Further, someone who has the use of, over a longer period of time, a more comprehensive record of effects, better medical advice, a variety of supporting ped's and highly paid team all working and pulling in the same direction for one person to succeed. Maybe others used as guinea pigs as well as being in a position to avoid being caught (therefore able to use more and at the most important times) through various different scouting/protecting and condoning bodies.
anyway, just saying again the level playing field argument is a nonsense, thank you for stating so succinctly the reason why.
Also in reference to this, i have stated that this view also disregards the few or many (who knows) riders whose careers never continued due to their moral stance of not going on to the "level playing field" and even those who did. Your point shows clearly why the best cyclist may not have been in a position to compete at the top end of the sport.
All in all we are left with champions who as well as training, hard work, natural ability,vo2max,natural hematocrit,maximal power output (MAX),power output (OBLA), estimated speed (VOBLA), heart rate (HROBLA) at the onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA), teamwork, nutrition,weight, luck and recovery. Present us with many of the above being artificially enhanced giving us a distorted representation of successful cyclists + who could be successful.
I hope you agree and to all those who bang on about the level playing field, maybe you can now understand my total reluctance in that proposition. I am open to consider reasons why this may not be the case, but until someone highlights to me why this is not the case i will stick with the opinion that there is not a level playing field where cheating is prevalent. This is without going into other areas of cheating and how that can destabilise results.
It should also be noted that athletes also have good days and bad apart from the dedication they put into their sport.
Peaks and troughs in performance are inevitable, even though athletes attempt to control them. Some with ped's some without.

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