Armstrong drops fight against USADA d...

Armstrong drops fight against USADA drug charges, puts Tour titles on line

There are 402 comments on the CBS Sports story from Aug 23, 2012, titled Armstrong drops fight against USADA drug charges, puts Tour titles on line. In it, CBS Sports reports that:

Lance Armstrong said Thursday night he is finished fighting a barrage of drug charges from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, putting his unprecedented string of seven Tour de France titles at risk along with his legacy as one of the greatest cyclists in history.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBS Sports.

Gus

Vancouver, Canada

#91 Sep 7, 2012
Greytips wrote:
There have been reports of retired cyclists exposing the sport already.
They describe the situation as this:
Everybody knows doping is common practice, however nobody talks openly about it. It is hinted at best. If one does not dope, he does technically have no chance of winning. Its not even so much about cycling speed but the increased regeneration time. If one gets caught, tough luck, nobody is going to back him up (or talk bad about him though)
So, even if some cyclists go out and speak up, they could only speak for themselves and their own experiences with doping, they could talk about their teammates at best.
So it is very difficult and time consuming to get everyone to confess, especially the successful ones which people care about. Every cyclist knew what he was getting into when he went pro.
I think if usada did not use dirty methods nobody would ever get caught. They need to catch someone big to give the people the illusion the sport is clean (which I doubt it is).
So its either play dirty or stay out of the game.
...Sooo,does this mean Alberta can look forward to another Vacation!!! ;-)
Gus

Vancouver, Canada

#92 Sep 7, 2012
sorry,Alberto!
GeeMan

Blackwood, UK

#93 Sep 7, 2012
Contador is probably one of the greatest riders ever but he has been done albeit in extreme circumstances as well as other TDF winners in a rush of blood. It shows the joke that we have for punishment in Cycling.

The issue is how far do you go to catch the biggest fish just to say what is already known which is PED's were taken.

The extents taken dont justify the means unfortunately as the jury has been out a few times back in a few times and we all know what was/is/will be with PED's and tieing down Armstrong wont change anything he is doing just now and for many years to come with his foundation who are benefitting more than ever, surprisingly.

If someone told you Ali cheated his whole career what would anyone say? He helped change the world let it go.

Armstrong is not an Ali, Ali in my opinion is the greatest Sports Icon ever for his work in and out of the ring and being a one in 10 billion person, but Armstrong IS still a huge role model. Take away his Titles what has he achieved? Far more outside the Sport than in it and no other Athlete comes close to what he is doing with his foundation. His bandwagon is rolling quicker now than before therefore Government Senators and Congressmen/women will not nail their colours to a mast that tries to sink his cause, its a bout survival of the fittest? If his star falls yes they shall but that wont happen anytime soon!

Smart people pick fights against those they can win not those who shall ruin you. Travis Tygart will learn a very valuable lesson on life soon that I was told many years ago which is,....You need to learn to be Right when you are Right, Wrong when you are Wrong but more importantly learn to be Wrong when you are Right when the right situation comes along. Survive and move on.

In business and life you cannot fight with everyone you disagree with and if you give away something that doesnt mean aything to you or more to others it allows you to keep fighting, surviving and maintaining the good cause (whatever it is to you).

We shall see if Travis has been handed a poisoned challlice in time as happens in Politics deliberately or inavertantly or not. I think he may well have been.
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#94 Sep 7, 2012
GeeMan wrote:
El Paso my last post didnt load so if thereís a duplicate my apologies.
I would not have tried to entice them.
Why? because they have already exposed themselves through the Federal Investigators and the testimony was binned along with all the other evidence when the case was dropped which means it is now too diluted to rely on.
Would I have offered sweeteners to get them on board, also NO as itís not allowed in the WADC rules. Doing this open you up to having the case thrown out by CAS if/when it reach there by not following your own rules.
How would I move forward if I believed he was guilty would be VERY different to USADA and I can see not within everyoneís approval?
I would get everyone around the table and all on board with a common view and explain what is being said and why and if I canít get an admission at least get some caveat in the records questioning the Titles ONLY over the last 8 years of the investigation because that is the rules.
USADA is there to help keep sport fair and free from PED's and act when they believe wrong doing is present. Unfortunately that message is not being played out by them and if the message is the mantra you need to have the BEST tools at your disposal.
With this in mind I would then do something some people would find odd and possible not agree with but I would get Armstrong involved with USADA.
Why? The old saying of to catch a poacher employ a poacher is what they need, in my opinion.
Armstrong inside kicking out instead of outside kicking in will give USADA a higher profile and would send shock waves around the Sporting World because guilty or not he knows what goes on who is doing it how they do it and when.
Would Armstrong agree? why not as it will help his ego in a self vindication way and it would help his foundaion as well the fact he would have produce something to help them.
Any Sponsor/Team/Athlete with knowledge of PED's around them would go WOW it all new rules.
Armstrong has Standing, Power and Influence in Politic, Sport and Business and this would act as a catalyst for of these important faucets of Sport.
The news would move Anti-doping forward by years by doing nothing but bring in the right name and still play within their own rules.
Quite simply you donít need to win every battle to win a war you just need to win the right ones.
Currently 23 senators have asked for a judicial review of this case and into USADA as well questioning that they are in fact wasting public money and not working within the rules they are governed by.
Like I said he has Power and Influence and sometimes itís better to look at the big picture and act accordingly.
USADA has for reasons known to themselves believe they can operate across the same parameters as the Federal Investigation and go way back to US Postal days and they simply are not allowed. They also believe the statements by witnesses have a Legal standing and they donít as that case was dropped.
What do you think yourself El Paso?
That was well thought out GeeMan. You really make good sense about bringing Lance Armstrong into the program along with bringing everyone around the table.

That was what some of here during the Floyd Landis case were hoping for and even suggested that Greg Lemond get involved here as well. And you can see how that never took place.

I would love to see it happen, but I wonder if we'll really ever see it take place as too many people have their own agenders and igos.
My Opinion_El Paso_Texas

El Paso, TX

#95 Sep 7, 2012
Greytips wrote:
There have been reports of retired cyclists exposing the sport already.
They describe the situation as this:
Everybody knows doping is common practice, however nobody talks openly about it. It is hinted at best. If one does not dope, he does technically have no chance of winning. Its not even so much about cycling speed but the increased regeneration time. If one gets caught, tough luck, nobody is going to back him up (or talk bad about him though)
So, even if some cyclists go out and speak up, they could only speak for themselves and their own experiences with doping, they could talk about their teammates at best.
So it is very difficult and time consuming to get everyone to confess, especially the successful ones which people care about. Every cyclist knew what he was getting into when he went pro.
I think if usada did not use dirty methods nobody would ever get caught. They need to catch someone big to give the people the illusion the sport is clean (which I doubt it is).
So its either play dirty or stay out of the game.
Well it's beginng to look like Tyler Hamilton's book has caused a stir as he told about how Bijn Riis encouraged him to dope while he was at CSC and that has suddenly made the world around Riis become very uncompfortable.

Am curious as to what will transpire during the post season.
Athos

UK

#96 Oct 10, 2012
Well tonight here in the UK. it seems as if he IS guilty, if so, a great pity
GeeMan

Crossgates, UK

#97 Oct 10, 2012
I have no doubt he was but the issues at play here are also due process or lack of it and its transfer across all sports.

I have looked at the document issued (scanned) and noted that USADA stated ahead of any hearing that Lance's Constitutional Rights were not part of the process as he gave them up under WADC rules. In the document they state the argument to go outside 8 years is under US Law! They dont define if its Stae or Federal or whatever US Law just US Law.

This could create a real issue for them if they wish to rely on US Law to hinge a part of the case and Lance declined a hearing on the basis it was unconstitutional he may look at this and suggest USADA changed the availablity of his rights after he declined as their access to US Law to find their case against him also allows Lance access to US Law to defend it, i.e. consttutional rights.

After it was stated 8 years was the limit it was always going to be hard to push that and over reaching may be the straw that breaks par of this case.

I also read with interset that the Panel to sit at the hearing is picked by USADA CEO, Travis, from a bank of approved members, which I was aware of through their rules! I also found out tonight however in a podcast on ESPN when Tim Herman noted that Judge Sparks offered USADA the opportunity there and then to agree to have an independant panel selected and have the hearing in his court under his jurisdiction and USADA declined.

The evidence will be broken down into pre-2006 and post 2006 by Lance's team as a lot of the evidence that has been tabled intestimony was also heard and rejected in the SCA hearing. Landis, Hamilton and Vaughters will be rejected as serial perjureres leaving the rest to contend with and the Scientific data has been poof tested by UCI up to 2006 against WADA so that will likely be rejected. The other scientific data that USADA say they have with positive tests doesnt actually exist it is analysis of blood profiles and that will end up with 2 specialist arguing they are both wrong.

It doesnt change the fact he did it and as far as I am concerned the clensing of souls by the riders who are now retiring is pathetic, call me omerta boy but these guys lived off Lance and will still look to do the same.

The charges he basically forced these guys is so loose it wont be pushed when you have the main guys with credibility saying it was their own choice and dont state they were forced.

I also wonder if Hincapie who admitted to bringing controlled substances to US will be charged now?

The sanctions being moote for the testifying riders is 6 months however US Cyling has said they are not aware of any communication from USADA.

Tim Herman also stated that USADA put the file on their website before adbising Lance himself.

A point worth noting regarding money is Travis Tygart had his contact changed from salary to performance related and look at what he has done with that. Also the reason the big fight over jurisdiction was not just power but hoever got it also gets the financial returns of sponsors etc that are handed back. Go figure Travis motivation when it has been filed that he is now earning more money than he was on a salary and thats without this case!

Its crooked in what went on with the doping, the process to convict is just as crooked and I hope this ends up in Court to be thrashed out so we get all the evidence on the table and the motives behind it and everyone is brought to be accountable.
Fishes

Mountain View, CA

#98 Oct 10, 2012
According to the report, they retested blood samples from 1999 Tour De France (the first year he won) and six came back positive for EPO.

Also five riders on the 1999 team - George Hincapie, Frankie Andreu, Tyler Hamilton, Jonathan Vaughters and Christian Vande Velde testified that they actually saw him dope.

That's pretty damning evidence.
GeeMan

Crossgates, UK

#99 Oct 11, 2012
Fishes that was done in 2005/6 by WADA and same positive results came back. UCI had it reviewed and tests were unable to be accepted due to agreed scientific issues of the behaviour of natural epo in storage, WADA scientists agreed.

Anything post 2006 is what needs to be looked at closely as that is new ground, anything before has east abolished case history.

It's the same with Landis, Hamilton, Vaughters testimony all can be argued away with previous testimony under oath in favour if Armstrong making it a neutral point. The Andreu submissions are same due to SCA case finding Jon Armstrong favour and is nothing new on the table.

People need to understand anything before 2006 Armstrong camp has a ready made case study answer to.

If Armstrong is going to contest this matter and its not certain he will he will do it by trying to make it a Constitutional issue to show he and the other riders involved had their rights violated and when you look at the main players in this, new riders testimony how many of them say after 2006 were clean. Armstrong would seek to discredit them with witness testimony they doped when they said they were clean and systematically discredit each testimony and then try and find a way to show the similarity of testimony was a result of guidance from USADA ie walking them through testimony so they matched up which is illegal known as guidingvthr witness.

Have a look also at who the Notary is on Levi testimony and look up Hamilton wife! Are they the same? How many can have that name? Maybe it's not tho but seems very fishy!

Like I said he may just say leave it but that opens door to multiple Federal charges unless a deal has been done to sit and take it as we'll as SCA and Sunday Times Civil cases in addition to Prize Winners and Sponsors money that may be asked for return, big risk to take as we'll as reputation damage.

I think he will fight and have a lot of the sanction reduced as USADA have over reached on them.

We shall see.
Kjnr

Australia

#100 Oct 11, 2012
Brian_G wrote:
In my heart, Lance Armstrong will always be a winner.
Lol
Cyclingfan

San Francisco, CA

#101 Oct 11, 2012
I was a pro cyclist one time and I have seen many people cheat but I have never ratted on anyone. The money and politics is so strong in cycling nowadays that people would sell their souls to the highest bidder. Lance we all know cheated to achieve to superhuman results but what is worst his best and most trusted buddies ratted on him. In my days as a cyclist we do not rat on people.
Kjnr

Australia

#102 Oct 11, 2012
Worst example of a drug cheat. Fair enough if he cheated to win one tour, but loved the endorsements, late show appearances, fame and ultimately money. He stuck his snout in the trough another 6 times. Hiding behind the do-good "Live Strong" cancer fighting foundation to cover his dirty little secrets. I say strip him of every title he and his team of needle sharing dope junkie fame whores won. And for all those dreamers who think he showed courage, strength and will to win races lol wake up. The rat cant even "man up" and confess his actions. That is something that takes courage.... Lol hope you get what you deserve.
Regis le cyclist

Milhaud, France

#103 Oct 11, 2012
Kjnr wrote:
Worst example of a drug cheat. Fair enough if he cheated to win one tour, but loved the endorsements, late show appearances, fame and ultimately money. He stuck his snout in the trough another 6 times. Hiding behind the do-good "Live Strong" cancer fighting foundation to cover his dirty little secrets. I say strip him of every title he and his team of needle sharing dope junkie fame whores won. And for all those dreamers who think he showed courage, strength and will to win races lol wake up. The rat cant even "man up" and confess his actions. That is something that takes courage.... Lol hope you get what you deserve.
Surely doping on this scale is nothing less than fraud/Grand larceny?
cyclingfan

San Francisco, CA

#104 Oct 11, 2012
So what? Most in the TDF cheated why just pick on Lance.
turtle

Huddersfield, UK

#106 Oct 11, 2012
cyclingfan wrote:
So what? Most in the TDF cheated why just pick on Lance.
Well, its no big surprise and if people continue to argue with statements like "they were all at it" "witch hunt" "it was to long ago" "the federal case was dropped so it must be untrue" "Its a french conspiracy?" "the case has been illegal or unconstitutional or even usada do not have jurisdiction " "its envy and jealousy" "lance never tested positive" "uci will challenge it" "cycling would not be where it is without lance" "A man who survived cancer like lance could never cheat" ect ect ect.
The only thing guaranteed to be shouted louder will be lance and friends attacks, vendettas and belittling of any of the witness's or contributors to the evidence encyclopedia which makes up this case and judgment.
I always kinda thought that lance had cheated through a passion or desire to be the best cyclist the world had seen. But after reading all of this report i am left with the disquieting feeling that in no way was that his first and biggest motivation. It was for the damn money!!!! thats why he did it and is why he goes after anyone in his way with such vengeance and hatred. It also explains why so many have been complicit in the affair. It all comes down to bonus payments and incentives which have enabled him to earn more than probably the rest of the peloton put together throughout his time amongst them. For each of the brave people who have stood up and been vilified by him there is probably another ten who have been payed off and bought by him.
Please lets not have anymore nonsense about this finding being wrongly compiled, or errors in the process, testimonies rejected as witness's accused of being perjurers, it being too late and in the past to be right and the most annoying,stupid,creeping,bulls ---, the lance advocates recent favorite. That lances cheating only leveled the playing field for him. As everyone was doing it. This explanation is so utterly short sighted and ilconceived it is amazing that people still have the audacity, arrogance or sheer stupidity to express it.
Coming back to the money! its obvious that the main reason lance did not go to arbitration is to avoid having his money go back to the sponsors, fundraisers, insurers, competitors, opponents and even teammates. The greed is truly disgusting. Mike andrews comments of something like " that armstrong had been cheating for profit, with the use of banned substances" + that Armstrong
engaged in an "evil, oppressive and dishonest scheme that equals the greatest scandal
in sports history"; This from a long time friend as well as associate spells out in CAPITAL letters just how low, dishonest, surreptitious, fraudulent, underhand, insidious, calculated, deceiving, deceitful, and just nasty lance is and has been. To those unfortunate enough to be in the same circles as him, and the competitions, promoters, staff and just about anyone and anything which has come into conflict with him and his greed and desires. Will have felt and seen this zeal first hand. The fixing of the 1993 million dollar prize for winning three races competed for in the US in his first or early years as a professional riding for motorola. Payed out by lloyds of london appear to have set a precedent, desire, knowledge and motivation for lance that nothing else could have achieved. He could cycle and make millions now and he could see the way to do it. Thus he helped build and enforce a team structure with an established doping regime designed by the one and only dr ferarri. He did it!!! and much much more as well !!!! Lets hope that this disgusting period for cycling is never repeated again; and that this judgment helps to foster new and clean world cycling competitions and competitors to emerge from this wreckage. One can only hope that the sport is never again dominated by a megalomaniac.
(what a flourishing last sentiment, i know you will value the comedy gold in this post gman)

Regis le cyclist

Milhaud, France

#107 Oct 11, 2012
turtle wrote:
<quoted text>Well, its no big surprise and if people continue to argue with statements like "they were all at it" "witch hunt" "it was to long ago" "the federal case was dropped so it must be untrue" "Its a french conspiracy?" "the case has been illegal or unconstitutional or even usada do not have jurisdiction " "its envy and jealousy" "lance never tested positive" "uci will challenge it" "cycling would not be where it is without lance" "A man who survived cancer like lance could never cheat" ect ect ect.
The only thing guaranteed to be shouted louder will be lance and friends attacks, vendettas and belittling of any of the witness's or contributors to the evidence encyclopedia which makes up this case and judgment.
I always kinda thought that lance had cheated through a passion or desire to be the best cyclist the world had seen. But after reading all of this report i am left with the disquieting feeling that in no way was that his first and biggest motivation. It was for the damn money!!!! thats why he did it and is why he goes after anyone in his way with such vengeance and hatred. It also explains why so many have been complicit in the affair. It all comes down to bonus payments and incentives which have enabled him to earn more than probably the rest of the peloton put together throughout his time amongst them. For each of the brave people who have stood up and been vilified by him there is probably another ten who have been payed off and bought by him.
Please lets not have anymore nonsense about this finding being wrongly compiled, or errors in the process, testimonies rejected as witness's accused of being perjurers, it being too late and in the past to be right and the most annoying,stupid,creeping,bulls ---, the lance advocates recent favorite. That lances cheating only leveled the playing field for him. As everyone was doing it. This explanation is so utterly short sighted and ilconceived it is amazing that people still have the audacity, arrogance or sheer stupidity to express it.
Coming back to the money! its obvious that the main reason lance did not go to arbitration is to avoid having his money go back to the sponsors, fundraisers, insurers, competitors, opponents and even teammates. The greed is truly disgusting. Mike andrews comments of something like " that armstrong had been cheating for profit, with the use of banned substances" + that Armstrong
engaged in an "evil, oppressive and dishonest scheme that equals the greatest scandal
in sports history"; This from a long time friend as well as associate spells out in CAPITAL letters just how low, dishonest, surreptitious, fraudulent, underhand, insidious, calculated, deceiving, deceitful, and just nasty lance is and has been. To those unfortunate enough to be in the same circles as him, and the competitions, promoters, staff and just about anyone and anything which has come into conflict with him and his greed and desires. Will have felt and seen this zeal first hand. The fixing of the 1993 million dollar prize for winning three races competed for in the US in his first or early years as a professional riding for motorola. Payed out by lloyds of london appear to have set a precedent, desire, knowledge and motivation for lance that nothing else could have achieved. He could cycle and make millions now and he could see the way to do it. Thus he helped build and enforce a team structure with an established doping regime designed by the one and only dr ferarri. He did it!!! and much much more as well !!!! Lets hope that this disgusting period for cycling is never repeated again; and that this judgment helps to foster new and clean world cycling competitions and competitors to emerge from this wreckage. One can only hope that the sport is never again dominated by a megalomaniac.
(what a flourishing last sentiment, i know you will value the comedy gold in this post gman)
France always suspected this scandal would end as such. Truth! final
Regis le cyclist

Milhaud, France

#108 Oct 11, 2012
cyclingfan wrote:
So what? Most in the TDF cheated why just pick on Lance.
But most never cheated. They were victims of grand larceny!! He made millions from cheating! Are you suggesting this is acceptable.?
kactus Jack

Leeds, UK

#109 Oct 11, 2012
Just look at bodybuilding, not the drugs they take but the size of the boys who choose to take illegal supplements and the boys who stay clean. The clean guys just can't compete with the big men out there
Then compare the cyclist who cheated and who didn't
iTS NOT SIZE IN CYCLING ITS RECOVERY
You just couldn't keep going if you didn't have chemical help.
Should he fess up - yes
will he - probably not
We now know the truth,
Do I care anymore, NO
GeeMan

Crossgates, UK

#110 Oct 11, 2012
The sanctions will be taken at 8 years ONL because there is no option or aternative.

Q is who gets the 2004 title? LA or who as all 9 behind were dopers!
GeeMan

Falkirk, UK

#112 Oct 12, 2012
wang you again make NO sense. What are you referring to?

Like i said who was right all along? Yep me.

I said they all doped but NO LL and GH etc were all clean well go figure they wernt and who called it?

Lets see who is right on what I said above.

US Doping Service got caught, so what is the view over here as we have seen it all before.

The problem in US is you wanted to take sides and now there are no sides to take they ALL doped.

Man how does it feel to have all your heroes busted at once and Lemond was the same with his no where rides in 89 until his 'iron' jags and win a TDF with world record TT ride.

Just a matter of interest how many euro riders are part of this sudden conscience purging thro US cycling/ None because we just sit back and watch you all lie about it all and tear yourselfs apart! Hillarious.

You have serial perjurers and liers and a drug trafficker BUT lets call LA names well so far who has commited a crime and who has not.

Man you guys are so lame your hating cant stop because you cannot face the truth LA was a pro rider like all the rest just better.

It is sooooo funny watching from our UK ivory tower of domination of cycling on the road and track.
Come over some time and see how it can be done!

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