testosterone/epitestosterone ratio

testosterone/epitestosterone ratio

Posted in the Floyd Landis Forum

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john

Bensalem, PA

#1 Jul 31, 2006
Why isn't any talking about epitestosterone and that it is used as a masking agent when using testoterone.

Epitestosterone is prohibited by sport authorities because its administration will lower the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, a marker of testosterone administration.

It is Landis RATIO that is high. Not that he has High Levels of Testosterone. His is believed to be 11/1. Normals are 1/1 and 4/1 in athletes.

So, athletes use epitestosterone to bring the ratio of the t/e test into a normal range.

Couldn't Landis have gotten his epitestosterone dosage wronge on day 16 causing his t/e ratio to be so high?
R Moore

Jonesboro, GA

#2 Aug 10, 2006
What is the rationale for not having BOTH a ratio (T/EpiT) and absolute level (ng/dL) criteria.
Will

United States

#3 Aug 10, 2006
john wrote:
Why isn't any talking about epitestosterone and that it is used as a masking agent when using testoterone.
Epitestosterone is prohibited by sport authorities because its administration will lower the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, a marker of testosterone administration.
It is Landis RATIO that is high. Not that he has High Levels of Testosterone. His is believed to be 11/1. Normals are 1/1 and 4/1 in athletes.
So, athletes use epitestosterone to bring the ratio of the t/e test into a normal range.
Couldn't Landis have gotten his epitestosterone dosage wronge on day 16 causing his t/e ratio to be so high?
Good point, John...I think you were ahead of the curve in fact; seems it's taken a week and a half for this notion to gain any traction here in the threads.
Wayne

United States

#4 Aug 10, 2006
R Moore wrote:
What is the rationale for not having BOTH a ratio (T/EpiT) and absolute level (ng/dL) criteria.
Not sure...but that is how it is done, according to the relevant WADA document.:

.......WADA Technical Document-TD2004EAAS.....

However....the individual T and E values are to be estimated.

Page 1 Paragraph 2:

" The concentration of testosterone and epitestosterone ( equivalent to the glucuronide ) should be estimated but should not be used to determone the T/E value. In the case of high T/E values, the concentration of epitestosterone is frequently low, and it may not always be possible to measure epitestosterone directly......."

In other words, if E is zero, don't worry........just find the ratio anyway.

Wonder what would have happened if Floyd's T/E ratio was 100.?..as happened in some tests back when the Olympics used T/E. That's one reason the IOC doesn't use this test anymore...haven't for years. Too unreliable.

I am sure WADA knows this test is flaky. Someday, once the drug cops are out of the spotlight, maybe they will dump T/E testing..

---Salem Oregon---
Steve

Maple, Canada

#5 Aug 11, 2006
john wrote:
Why isn't any talking about epitestosterone and that it is used as a masking agent when using testoterone.
Epitestosterone is prohibited by sport authorities because its administration will lower the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, a marker of testosterone administration.
It is Landis RATIO that is high. Not that he has High Levels of Testosterone. His is believed to be 11/1. Normals are 1/1 and 4/1 in athletes.
So, athletes use epitestosterone to bring the ratio of the t/e test into a normal range.
Couldn't Landis have gotten his epitestosterone dosage wronge on day 16 causing his t/e ratio to be so high?
Bingo-Right on the money. Someone who understands how the system works
mark

AOL

#6 Aug 11, 2006
john wrote:
Why isn't any talking about epitestosterone and that it is used as a masking agent when using testoterone.
Epitestosterone is prohibited by sport authorities because its administration will lower the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, a marker of testosterone administration.
It is Landis RATIO that is high. Not that he has High Levels of Testosterone. His is believed to be 11/1. Normals are 1/1 and 4/1 in athletes.
So, athletes use epitestosterone to bring the ratio of the t/e test into a normal range.
Couldn't Landis have gotten his epitestosterone dosage wronge on day 16 causing his t/e ratio to be so high?
It's true that Landis's RATIO is high. You add, "Not that he has high levels of testosterone." But then you contradict your point by adding, "His [meaning his testosterone LEVEL, not RATIO] is believed to be 11/1." It's not BELIEVED to be 11:1, that fact has been confirmed by both sides and is not in dispute. Landis was even on television giving somewhat contradictory excuses I would say, why it was so high. So it IS, it's not BELIEVED TO BE. Furthermore, where are you getting that from? As of yesterday, as I understand it, Landis's lawyer Howard Jacobs had not released any information about Landis testosterone LEVEL (not RATIO or "level of his ratio").

The following is from yesteday's (Thursday, Aug. 11th's) Wall Street Journal:

Q: It has been reported that Mr. Landis's testosterone level was within the normal range, but his epitestosterone was very low. Do low levels of epitestosterone confer any advantage to an athlete?

A: No, nor do high levels. Epitestosterone doesn't have any known purpose in the body, several doctors told me. Ingemar Bjorkhem, a professor of clinical chemistry at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm who has studied testosterone, said epitestosterone's function is "controversial," but added, "Most probably, it's not very important."

"It's an accident in metabolism," said Richard Hellman, president-elect of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists. "For each molecule of testosterone made, there is a nonfunctional molecule [of epitestosterone] made." Hence the usual 1-to-1 T/E ratio.

Production of epitestosterone can be suppressed by adding synthetic testosterone to the body, so a high T/E ratio can be a marker for doping.

Landis spokesman Michael Henson confirmed to me that the high ratio was the result of very low epitestosterone. The cycling union has been more tight-lipped, and no one has specified the exact hormonal levels. Howard Jacobs, Mr. Landis's lawyer, told me he wouldn't release numbers yet because he hasn't yet received full documentation of the tests from the cycling union. "I want to see the documentation of how they calculate the numbers," he said. "I don't want to put out numbers that are flat wrong."
Wayne

United States

#7 Aug 11, 2006
mark wrote:
<quoted text>

Landis spokesman Michael Henson confirmed to me that the high ratio was the result of very low epitestosterone. The cycling union has been more tight-lipped, and no one has specified the exact hormonal levels. Howard Jacobs, Mr. Landis's lawyer, told me he wouldn't release numbers yet because he hasn't yet received full documentation of the tests from the cycling union. "I want to see the documentation of how they calculate the numbers," he said. "I don't want to put out numbers that are flat wrong."
That's about it, isn't it. The ICU certainly could release a full report with all actual data if they wanted to. WADA's own technical document directs that the levels of T and E be estimated, and even discusses the possibility that E may be too low to measure.

What is holding up release of official documentation? Search me....maybe there is something they don't want us to know. Maybe E was too low to measure......in which case the measured T/E ratio would be meaningless.

---Salem Oregon---
Mike

Longmire, WA

#8 Aug 11, 2006
john wrote:
Why isn't any talking about epitestosterone and that it is used as a masking agent when using testoterone.
Epitestosterone is prohibited by sport authorities because its administration will lower the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, a marker of testosterone administration.
It is Landis RATIO that is high. Not that he has High Levels of Testosterone. His is believed to be 11/1. Normals are 1/1 and 4/1 in athletes.
So, athletes use epitestosterone to bring the ratio of the t/e test into a normal range.
Couldn't Landis have gotten his epitestosterone dosage wronge on day 16 causing his t/e ratio to be so high?
The best thread yet. The epitestosterone level is the key because the result so far reported is that the testosterone level was in the "normal" range. Can't wait for this documentation to be released.
JohnE

Jupiter, FL

#9 Aug 11, 2006
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
The best thread yet. The epitestosterone level is the key because the result so far reported is that the testosterone level was in the "normal" range. Can't wait for this documentation to be released.
MIKE-Are you saying the riders give themselves shots of epitestosterone on a daily basis to keep levels in check?
Will

Middle River, MD

#10 Aug 11, 2006
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>...What is holding up release of official documentation? Search me....maybe there is something they don't want us to know. Maybe E was too low to measure......in which case the measured T/E ratio would be meaningless.
---Salem Oregon---
...or maybe, since the matter is being hotly contested, the officials are RESTRICTING THE RELEASE TO THE LEGITIMATE FORUM IN WHICH THE MATTER IS BEING CONTESTED, AS WELL AS LIMITING ITS RELEASE TO JUST THE PARTIES INVOLVED. You can't have it BOTH ways--you can't argue that leaks hurt Landis' right to due process on the one hand, while criticizing the sports organizations for trying to maintain confidentiality of these vital documents on the other hand. Landis' attorney Howard Jacobs has the documents that have been released so far--I don't hear you demanding that HE release these vital documents on behalf of his client; Jacobs is already on record as saying that he's not releasing any documents at this point, and neither should USADA/UCI or anyone else.
american

Singapore

#11 Aug 11, 2006
many EPO experts here must tell the french doctors to get new jobs,hahahah can we Buy phd's in america? i love america hahahah
wrenhouir

Lahaina, HI

#12 Aug 22, 2006
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
That's about it, isn't it. The ICU certainly could release a full report with all actual data if they wanted to. WADA's own technical document directs that the levels of T and E be estimated, and even discusses the possibility that E may be too low to measure.
What is holding up release of official documentation? Search me....maybe there is something they don't want us to know. Maybe E was too low to measure......in which case the measured T/E ratio would be meaningless.
---Salem Oregon---
This is probably the case. If their results were totatlly conclusive they would publish them. The ICU, the french and many other europeans are not happy about the 8 year american domination of the Tour. Lance figured it out. Every team should understand the formula for winning the tour. Complete dedication to the race, complete dedication from the team to support a single rider, and more training than even any pro cyclist would ever think of doing to prepare. That's how you win. It's simple.
Raymond

Vitrolles, France

#13 Aug 23, 2006
Hi, All on the FL forums. I have been banned from making any future comments. Why????, I have not used profane language or slandered any one. I have made remarks comments that obviously offend some contributers, but what? Clearly TOPIX or some one dose not like my posts. Sad. It has been enlightening, now I must say goodbye.
Raymond

Vitrolles, France

#14 Aug 23, 2006
does
Will

United States

#15 Aug 23, 2006
Raymond wrote:
Hi, All on the FL forums. I have been banned from making any future comments. Why????, I have not used profane language or slandered any one. I have made remarks comments that obviously offend some contributers, but what? Clearly TOPIX or some one dose not like my posts. Sad. It has been enlightening, now I must say goodbye.
WHAT???! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! IF AMERICAN IN SINGAPORE AND BIGGER LIES HAVE NOT BEEN BANNED THEN IT'S PREPOSTEROUS THAT YOU SHOULD BE BANNED.

Is there some way to get in touch with you to find out more information on this outlandish state of affairs?

If not, then adieu mon ami--maybe our paths will cross again on some other discussion board or blogspace.

CONTINUE TO MONITOR THIS FORUM, and if I or someone else can suggest ANOTHER forum board, then maybe we can meet there and resume dialogue, because I find your input worthwhile.
Raymond

Vitrolles, France

#16 Aug 23, 2006
Will wrote:
<quoted text>
WHAT???! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! IF AMERICAN IN SINGAPORE AND BIGGER LIES HAVE NOT BEEN BANNED THEN IT'S PREPOSTEROUS THAT YOU SHOULD BE BANNED.
Is there some way to get in touch with you to find out more information on this outlandish state of affairs?
If not, then adieu mon ami--maybe our paths will cross again on some other discussion board or blogspace.
CONTINUE TO MONITOR THIS FORUM, and if I or someone else can suggest ANOTHER forum board, then maybe we can meet there and resume dialogue, because I find your input worthwhile.
Hi Will, It could be another forum I visited.

Quote:- I said

"My country right or WRONG"

The American way

It is fortunate for leaders, that people do not THINK

Adolh Hitler.

JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

Anyway Will, I have found your input on the FL affair stimulating and always lucid. I will continue to monitor this saga to it's conclusion. My very best regards Raymond
TrustButVerify

Santa Rosa, CA

#17 Aug 23, 2006
This is a good discussion; I'm linking to it in my roundup of Landis related news at http://trustbut.blogspot.com

-TBV
Raymond

Vitrolles, France

#18 Aug 23, 2006
TrustButVerify wrote:
This is a good discussion; I'm linking to it in my roundup of Landis related news at http://trustbut.blogspot.com
-TBV
I hav'nt read every word, of every link on your web site. However, do you think there would have been as much interest in the US, if, the rider in question was not an American? Just a thought.
TrustButVerify

Santa Rosa, CA

#19 Aug 24, 2006
Raymond wrote:
<quoted text>
I hav'nt read every word, of every link on your web site. However, do you think there would have been as much interest in the US, if, the rider in question was not an American? Just a thought.
No, I don't think there would be the American interest if it wasn't an American. If it had been, say, Ullrich, I'd have expected the interest to be mostly German and Swiss. Statistically, traffic to TBV is 90% US, 3% Canada, and then dwindling single digits UK, Australia, Switzerland, Spain,...

No apologies to be made for it. I was an American looking for someone to root for in addition to Lance and serially chose Tyler and Floyd. Well, I suppose it is all my fault, then -- having picked them, they became cursed because of me, or they decided to cheat to try to make me happy.

-dB
zwrites

New Orleans, LA

#20 Aug 24, 2006
Raymond wrote:
Hi, All on the FL forums. I have been banned from making any future comments. Why????, I have not used profane language or slandered any one. I have made remarks comments that obviously offend some contributers, but what? Clearly TOPIX or some one dose not like my posts. Sad. It has been enlightening, now I must say goodbye.
I can't beleive they have banned you. Maybe, it a mistake. Hey, didn't I talk about mistakes before? I hope it was. Even though we do not agree on this subject, you had very witty and informed comments to make.
Z
GB+

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