Gun control what it means for hickman...

Gun control what it means for hickman county???

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Patriot

Antioch, TN

#1 Jan 16, 2013
What are your thoughts on the proposed gun control measures in the wake of the shooting of those innocent kids? If Obama trys to send out Executive orders, will you do what he says?
Realist

United States

#2 Jan 16, 2013
You're asking a loaded question. It looks like you're not really a patriot but someone already highly prejudiced toward preserving your perceived gun rights. So, I don't think you're starting with an open mind. You should. You might learn something. How did you give yourself away? First, the President doesn't have to try to send out Executive Orders. He does it, and you don't get to decide for him. It's within his constitutional power (be a patriot and support the constitution). Second, your tone sounds like you're anticipating something bad. You should remember that he's trying to protect our children and our citizenry. It's his job. Be a good fellow patriot and support that. Surely you would support some minor inconvenience (at most) to support background checks and limited capacity magazines.
A realist

Clinton, SC

#3 Jan 16, 2013
Really? I bet criminals will support these changes, too. There the ones we are supposedly protecting are children from, but do you really think they'll follow these laws. No.
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#4 Jan 16, 2013
No they will not follow them rules... Its not about guns its about Evil and what our society has become. The anti gun nuts are using this as a springboard. And the nerve to parade little kids across the TV , i think Saddam did this too... That play did not make me sad, it mad me mad.
Really

Antioch, TN

#5 Jan 16, 2013
WAKE UP!!!!!-I'm posting this to EXPOSE this FACT, and HOPEFULLY get some more debate on the SOURCE of the PROBLEM:In 1957 there were over 500,000
institutionalized in State Mental Institutions and we had reasonable involuntary commitment laws. We had no modern "gun control" laws, could buy your M1 Carbine through the mail along with all the 30 round magazines you wanted- yet mass random shootings were NOT a national issue!!! Was 1957 America a police state? Doctors and judges made the decision who to keep in the loony bin, and they could not get out until they were no longer a threat to self or a public threat. You still had the rights to a lawyer and judge to prove your sanity and get out if there was no basis for the decision.

Today we have emptied and closed the State Mental Institutions, created the homeless population, made involuntary commitment impossible until AFTER you commit a crime- and then try and blame guns for the actions of the mental patients!!! Jared Laughner- parents tried to get him help at least twice but were turned down for la#$%$ insurance, neighbors said he would ride around on his bike talking to himself, school said he was unbalanced- in the PAST he would have been institutionalized long before he shot Gabby based on his obvious illness! Virginia Tech- school teachers said he was unbalanced- in the PAST he would have been institutionalized based on his obvious behavior!!! Colorado- His college psychiatrist was so alarmed by Holmes that she had him banned from the campus, but nothing else. In the PAST- she could have had him involuntarily committed BEFORE he hurt anyone!!! What was even the POINT of him trying to get help from the psychiatrist when all she did was ban him from the school???!!! Even Charles Whitman in 1966, the first of these crazed m#$%$hooters warned authorities before hand by seeking help from Texas University's school psychiatrist- repeatedly! He had severe migraine headaches and extreme anger that HE knew was irrational, turned out he had a BRAIN TUMOR- discovered AFTER his death!!! He even told his psychiatrist he was fantasizing about shooting people from the tower!!! If his school psychiatrist had remotely done his job he would have gotten the help he sought. To this day Texas University won't release all of Whitman's medical records, claiming the deceased "right to privacy"- so the school won't be SUED!!!! Newtown CT- Mother was so scared of her son she told sitters not to turn their ba#$%$ on him even if they went to the bathroom, was in the process of involuntary commitment, but with him not having committed a crime involuntary commitment is virtually impossible and there is no where to send him. 40 years ago he would have been institutionalized in a State Mental Institution based on his behavior. You know where the largest State Mental Institution in Connecticut is? NEWTOWN- its been CLOSED for DECADES! This is NOT a "gun control" issue!
Realist

United States

#6 Jan 16, 2013
So other than spending $50 billion to put guards in all schools and other public places plus umpteen billions to reopen mental institutions that didn't serve the ill very well, what do you suggest?

Seems to me that some very selfish people just want to play with guns even if it puts others at risk. The same people don't want the government to spend money on schools or public health. Go figure.
Honor Truth

United States

#7 Jan 16, 2013
Realist, sorry but you’re not. You’re the one with the closed mind. First I would like to state that I am qualified to talk on this subject as I have killed many people. I am a retired special operations NCO that has more deployments to third world shitholes than I care to remember. To start off with you have to identify when this became such a problem. We did not have this problem 50 years ago and there were more guns per capita than there are now. So what has changed in that 50 years?
First off let’s call them what they are “massacres”, yes they are massacres. How is your history education? How many died in the Boston Massacre which was when the British slayed colonists with guns? Answer “five”. So why did someone decide to start calling all these massacres “shootings” unless it was to further their anti-gun agenda? Anyway back on track.
Guns even with high capacity magazines have been in the hands of US civilians since troops came back from WW I and II. The Colt 1911 semi-auto .45 caliber pistol has been around since 1911 (wow that was easy). The revolver can fire just as fast as a semi-auto btw and has been around much longer. So maybe it’s not the guns causing the problem. Just think about it and not take what some college professor is telling you as gospel. Did you know muskets were found littering the battlefields in the 1800’s loaded over and over without being fired until you couldn’t get another ball down the barrel? Why was this? It was because the normal human brain is wired to reject the thought of taking another life. In the chaos of the battlefield, soldiers were pretending to fire and then would reload. That doesn’t count all the ones firing over the heads of others. To train a deadlier force the US military went from using circular targets in firearms training to using man size silhouettes. That progressed to using plastic pop-up targets formed and painted to resemble an enemy soldier. It’s a conditioned response, and you don’t think you just shoot as fast as they pop-up. Our soldiers got much more lethal. Then today we can save money on rounds in combat simulators. They are nothing more than high speed computer games using multiple screens. The same things many US teens (and pre-teens) play on every week. From ones most parents don’t frown on such as Spec Ops and other US military games to really evil ones such as “Grand Theft Auto”. These games are graphic and realistic. They condition the kids playing them to ignore blood and brains splattering on the walls just as well as the high dollar simulators purchased by our military. The movies produced by Hollywood are getting more realistic and violent every year. Hurray for 3D it’s just like being there! It’s just more conditioning. They don’t condition you to ignore it once it’s over which is why our military has such a high suicide rate now and why so many of these kids shoot themselves after they commit these massacres.
Another reason is well explained by “Really” and yes I think we should spend the money on mental health issues. Another issue is all the prescribed mental drugs given especially to kids. Most of these massacres were committed by kids on or just removed from these drugs (look at the side affects). Don’t you think that should be looked at?
To be continued....
Honor Truth

United States

#8 Jan 16, 2013
Part 2
Why do you think more people are not talking about these other reasons that have materialized in the last 50 years? You can buy a major gun company for 100 million dollars. That’s chump change. Gun owners have the NRA but gun companies cannot afford a stable full of lobbyists and a propaganda machine. Who can? You think you can buy a pharmaceutical company or Century Fox for 100 million dollars? No way!
We have an issue of kids wanting to kill. That’s scary as hell and is what we need to be looking at. In Columbine they tried rigging propane tanks as bombs. The guy in Colorado booby trapped his apartment with bombs. Get rid of every gun in America and your still going to have problems!
Speaking of learning something an Executive Order cannot take away from the Bill of Rights. Also I don’t play with my firearms as they are not toys and firearms should not be portrayed as such in movies or games. A firearm is a tool and owning that tool is a right our founding fathers saw fit to guarantee, probably after witnessing the Boston Massacre which was the government shooting unarmed civilians.
Honor Truth

United States

#9 Jan 16, 2013
I apologize for part 2 having been displayed three times. Internet is having serious issues. Hughes Net...... another discussion. LOL
Oldfart Texas

Nashville, TN

#10 Jan 17, 2013
Honor Truth has got it nailed. Add no accountability for your own actions--in school or at home, workplace. Younger bunch has been told that all bad actions are not thier fault--something in society is to blame or in this case an object--guns. The mental institutions as they were back in the day was needed, but it was also an easy way to get somebody you didn't like locked up for 6 months to a year or after funding-- the money ran out and they were released.
Realist

United States

#11 Jan 17, 2013
Honor Truth, yeah I recognized the conditioning I was receiving when I was in Basic Training a long time ago. I almost got killed by a kid on the firing range who wasn't really capable of handling an M-16--he was left-handed and got hot brass down his shirt. I got the muzzle across my belly as I was trying to instruct him. I dread the thought of some people getting a weapon that powerful in their hands.

I personally liked shooting the M-16, but I could never justify that kind of weapon for personal use. There are plenty of other 223s, 22-250s, 243s, etc. that are similar in characteristics for hunting.

I don't like kids being conditioned by violent, killing video games. I don't think we know enough about the specific kinds of video games that really brainwash people vs those that just relieve stress or are just fun.

I didn't see anything in the President's orders that should interfere with a law-abiding citizen's rights. I don't buy the argument that criminals will do bad anyway. I'm more concerned about the could-be madman than the already-is criminal going mad and killing lots of people.
I love guns

Shelby, NC

#12 Jan 17, 2013
You know what every day 30 people on average are killed by drunk drivers and I don't hear people wanting to ban cars ! Also more people was killed by a hammer last year than by guns ! Bad people will always have guns take away from the good guys and crime will definitely go out the roof. I will bury mine in my yard before I let someone claim them.
Honor Truth

United States

#13 Jan 17, 2013
Realist, I'm sorry but your killing me. "I dread the thought of some people getting a weapon that powerful in their hands". The M-16 5.56mm or .223 caliber is one of the smallest lightest centerfire cartridges made. It is a joke for killing humans or human sized animals such as a mature whitetail buck. I have shot people with it and I know what it does and does not. It does not impress. It works well for wounding and suffering. You said "they are plenty of 223s, 243s etc that are similar in characteristics for hunting". You idiot an M-16 or M-4 is a 5.56mm and is the same thing as a .223 so don't get on here and try to impress with your lack of knowledge. It is a great predator round. What the president is doing does interfere with my right as a law abiding citizen under the 2nd Amendment just as if I restricted your 1st Amendment right to only shooting your mounth off 10 words at a time before you had to go back and think about what you were saying before you could say 10 more.
Honor Truth

United States

#14 Jan 18, 2013
Realist,

I just read my last post and I apologize for calling you an idiot. There was no cause for me to resort to that and I'm sorry.

One thing I did forget to bring up on your last post. When you talked about "how powerful the M-16 was and how you dread the thought of someone getting that in their hands". Why can't people understand the difference between an M-16 fully automatic Assault Rifle and a civilian AR-15 which is only semi-automatic? AND YOU SUPPOSEDLY TAUGHT FIREARMS AT A US DOD FIREARMS FACILITY!!! You constantly try to make the two very different firearms the same.

This brings up a very serious question I beg of you to answer. Are the people with this Anti-gun agenda so ignorant of what they are trying to ban that they just don't understand the difference? Maybe they are judging by looks alone instead of capability? Sounds like someone with a racist attitude. OR is it something much more sinister? Do they realize the difference and teach there is no difference because it helps them to get the public that is ignorant behind their agenda?

I personally believe it is the latter. The problem when debating someone is you don't know whether you are talking to someone that has the agenda or someone who is ignorant on the subject and believes the propaganda of the agenda. Which are you?
Realist

United States

#15 Jan 18, 2013
Come on Honor Truth. I know the difference in an M-16 and an AR-15. I know the difference in the power of say an M-16 vs and AK-47. I know the size of the bullet of the 22, 22-250, 243, 30-06... I know the AR-15 is a 5.56 or 223 caliber. I even know how to find the ft. lbs of energy and how to calibrate that for the size of target. I know how the military grade of ammunition for the M-16 performs when it hits a target and the total mess it makes. It's for maximum damage--purely ugly. Yes, the 223 makes a good varmint round, but not necessarily in an AR-15 housing. When I spoke of the power of the M-16 / AR-15 /223 I was referring to the high capacity magazine versions with semi-automatic fire with a projectile to travel about 3000 -0 3,200 fps and to tumble rapidly on impact in a human body or similar sized creature causing maximum damage.

I believe your remarks basically confirm what I'm trying to say.

I don't have but I would like to have a 223 in a bolt action for varmint hunting. It's a little too small for deer hunting.

I don't see a problem with background checks because if that will stop or delay even a few incidents, it's worth my inconvenience for a few minutes.

I wouldn't really mind having to have a license for anything bigger than a pellet gun if it would stop or delay some idiot.

It wouldn't really bother me if somebody could create a simulator to test a person's reactions with a handgun to stop those that are prone to pulling a trigger before they realize it's a spouse or friendly target.(I don't think that's likely, but perhaps some better training for people would really help.)

I don't believe the constitution ever intended people to have free-will to shoot anything with anything under any circumstances. That's why it talks about "Well-Regulated."

Now, stop arguing about the negatives and tell me what positive steps you suggest.
Honor Truth

United States

#16 Jan 18, 2013
You have obviously never ever shot anyone with an M-16 or M-4 with Military ammunition so quit acting like you have! Anyone can throw a few terms around and act like an expert. The military ball ammunition does not expand as that is against the Geneva Convention! IT IS NOT FOR MAXIMUM DAMAGE! Quite the contrary as it zips right through and takes that enemy soldier out and the two that has to carry his wounded body.

I will admit that I am a "bolt man" and do not use an AR for anything other than predators and personal defense of myself and my family. "Well Regulated" in the tense of how it was used means well trained. You have to read the letters of our founding fathers to get the whole truth.

The steps I suggest are:

1. Study research already done by renowned Psychologists on the effects of violent realistic games and movies. If the research warrants and I think it does then regulate those industries (gaming and Hollywood) like it was porn.

2. Study the side effects of prescription drugs and if they are known to cause violent tendencies to any degree ban them. Several are known to do this in less than 2% or 3% percent of cases. 2 or 3 percent of a million people is in my opinion a large number.

3. Involuntarily commit people with violent mental conditions BEFORE they commit a crime.

4. Put armed guards or arm trained teachers at all schools.

The military kills more people with bombs/exploding projectiles than bullets from guns. I have seen enough homemade bombs and the damage they cause to have a serious fear of them. Remove the guns and see that be your next weapon of choice. Guerillas and Terrorists understand that and use them. Look at the Oklahoma City bombing. Removing guns will not remove the threat it might make it worse. In fact the mainstream media does not publicize all the murders that are stopped everyday by armed civilians. I’m convinced it will make it worse. The guns with high capacity have been around more than a CENTURY but this problem is new or at least much worse. You must look for the new variable(s) that are causing the problem. My personal opinion is most of the problem has been caused by removing God from our everyday lives but that’s another discussion.

If you are from Hickman County I would love to debate you in a public setting. Let me know if interested.
Realist

Versailles, IN

#17 Jan 18, 2013
No need for debate. You want to argue, but I don't disagree with most of what you say. No, I was never in combat, thankfully. Yes, I know military ammunition does not expand, but the M-16 tumbles more than the 7.62.

As far as your recommendations go, they sound much like what the President is seeking...entirely reasonable.

I also know that removing high capacity guns will not stop mass killings. At Sandy Hook, a can of gasoline could have caused tremendous damage. Some controls on specific weapons could reduce some risk, but without a comprehensive program we won't fix the problem.

I hope we don't have to start putting armed guards at public places and schools. I hope we do enough other things well first. If that means starting with learning better morals and love for fellow man via whatever God you worship, that surely can help.

Now, did you really have anything to argue about? There's lots we both could complain about. The thing we need to do is support actions that will bring good change. Right?
Honor Truth

United States

#18 Jan 18, 2013
Realist,

Gosh girl you want to argue more than I do. The 5.56 does not tumble even after it hits flesh. Any round that tumbles is not accurate and its an accurate round. I don't know who told you that but they don't know what they are talking about. I went through the Special Forces Qualification Course as an 18B Weapons NCO and make my living now as a consultant for weapons, optics and lasers.
My first post I was not arguing (go back and read it). I covered some very serious issues we have. Also my very first post I went over 3 of my 4 suggestions. But not as brief. The only one I didn't mention was armed guards in school and the reason I didn't mention that one is because enough people are talking about it. I'm just sick and tired of everyone wanting to take the easy way out and "ban assault weapons!". If you ever want to spend time around different types of firearms and learn their characteristics let me know.
Realist

Versailles, IN

#19 Jan 18, 2013
Yeah, I like to hold my own to a fault, I suppose. We don't agree about school guards, but I don't want govt. taxing more and spending more on creating another TSA for schools. I also need to clear one other thing. I was not talking about the bullet tumbling in flight. That won't work. It tumbles after hitting a target. That tendency varies according to weight, powder load, twist, etc. See below:
Ok here's the full skinny on .223 / 5.56 NATO bullets. The first prototype M16 rifles had a slower than 1 in 12 twist. The M193 ball projectile being 55 gr. boat tail was a bit unstable in I think it was 1 in 14 twist barrels. So there was a high degree of yaw going on but it really wasn't tumbling in flight.

When these rounds would strike flesh they would indeed tumble easily as they were already a tad unstable in flight. By the time the Gov. issued the M16A1 the twist was 1 in 12 and this did a better job of stabilizing the 55 gr. bt round. But at close range in jungle fighting the 3200 fps or slightly higher out of the 20" barrel caused the bullet to tumble and explode in flesh.

Little know is that all bullets will invert, swap bottom for nose when moving though flesh. Some take longer to flip or tumble than others. Smaller calibers tumble easier especially if going very fast. The shearing forces on the bullet jacket are larger than the jacket material can stand and so the fast moving .223 bullet fragments / explodes into fragments. The higher the speed, the greater the fragmentation and the larger the permanent wound channel is.

http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html Here you go, a link to Fackler's study on bullet wound ballistics. It will tell you a ton of stuff about what the bullet does. Got some nice drawings that illustrate the effect on tissue.
big picture view

Ashland City, TN

#20 Jan 18, 2013
Facts that needs to be remembered in this discussion: 1) In Newtown the alledged killer entered by a window and HIS MOTHER'S bushmaster AR15 was locked in his mother's car trunk that he drove to the school (reported by the media) 2) the mental health checks-how many people have mental illness (depression, manic episodes, drug induced paranoia, bipolar, schzophrenia etc) that never go to the doctor to be diagnosed or reported? Does every person who takes Zoloft deemed to have mental illness? Is there no privacy between you and your doctor? How many people will not seek mental help if it means they have to give up their constitutional right to bear arms to protect their home from home invasions? 3)Pull out any dollar legal tender and you will see printed "This note is legal tender for ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" which means you have a right to sell your private property using legal tender 4) Ban on the production of draino and ban on sudafed was introduced to stop the production of meth but has it stopped? No it has increased and the good responsible citizens suffer from the ban of the products 5) Look at crime rates in Texas & Vermont where everyone (law abiding) can carry and own a gun-crime rates are minimial b/c the criminal doesn't want to victimize someone equal to the equipment (armed guns) they carry 6)look at the ratio of how many children have attended public school systems in the last 2 years and then how many children have been killed due to violent gun fire as in Newtown-The ratio is less than 1/2 percent-true it is sad of victims who have suffered but once again we see the normal of punish all for a few's actions. Banning guns is not the answer, requiring criminal/mental backgrounds is not the answer when a private individual is selling a firearm, banning the free enterprise of banning a certain type of gun is not the answer. Trained officers could have a two-fold purpose: A) kids learn that the police is not the "bad guy" that doping & lawbreaking parents partray to their kids & B) they provide security and safety. What could life be like? Lawabiding citizens (without a gun) being at the mercy of criminials that already have and will always have guns/amunition waiting at the corner of your local Kroger while the armed police officer is guarding the front doors. Banning guns will only allow the criminial and police officers to have a firearm and there will never be enought police officers to protect every citizen. Do you think a criminal will knowningly break and enter into your home if he/she knows you are armed and know how to use your firearm? Criminals are not stupid and only take from others who are less equipped and vulnerable to their criminal attacks. Use your common sense and set aside the emotions being used to gain support. The school shooting was a tradgety but banning guns isn't the answer nor has their been enought truthful information released by authorities of the Newtown shooter situation to go and jump on the banwagon one way or the other.

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