Unwanted 'tax' gifts will cause exodu...

Unwanted 'tax' gifts will cause exodus from county

There are 25 comments on the The Indianapolis Star story from Dec 30, 2007, titled Unwanted 'tax' gifts will cause exodus from county. In it, The Indianapolis Star reports that:

Marion County taxpayers got another unexpected Christmas "present" from the outgoing, can't-take-a-hint mayor and City-County Council in the form of yet another tax increase -- this time a new "recording fee ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Indianapolis Star.

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Chris

San Jose, CA

#1 Dec 30, 2007
No one likes taxes, but let's have a little honesty: The "11th hour tax increase" is a recording fee which amounts to an extra $2.50 to record a deed and $1 for each page of a real estate transaction document (with the average mortgage document being roughly 20 pages long). The Metropolitan Indianapolis Board of Realtors, which opposed the fee increase, said it would amount to about $25 extra for a typical home sale transaction (the extra recording fee, plus the cost of a typical mortgage document). I have never in my life heard of an extra $25 killing a home sale, and I never will because an extra $25 for a home sale is a negligible amount. Also, the recording fee increase was properly noticed and had been planned and publicly discussed for quite some time--it hardly qualifies as an "11th hour" action, unless one thinks that the City-County Council should just stop functioning for the last couple of months of the year.

Now, the income tax hike certainly has more of an impact. Yet, interestingly enough, Mayor-elect Ballard has said the tax hike is "here to stay." I guess he realized he can't keep his campaign promise to cut $70 million a year from the city budget if he helps eliminate a $90 million dollar a year source of revenue. Also, the fact that the city's credit rating was restored as a direct result of the new tax hike probably helped him warm up to it, too.

The real problem is the property tax fiasco, and that is a statewide problem, which the General Assembly needs to finally decide to resolve--enough with the "special commissions" and endless proposals. Property taxes need to be capped and special credits need to be given to lower-income individuals. The state needs to assume the cost of state-mandated welfare programs and the entire cost of public education--except for special construction projects which can be locally voted on. Duplicative layers of local government and duplicative local officals need to be eliminated. Also, local governments need to be given expanded revenue options to vote to implement as alternatives to property taxes, such as additional sales taxes, income taxes, business taxes, etc. Finally, special consideration must be given to cities. Indianapolis is not Carmel (nor Fishers, Avon, etc.), and it never will be--cities have different and greater needs (i.e. older and more complex infrastructure, larger poor populations, etc.) than suburban and rural areas, and they require more revenue to operate.

The public is not ignorant--unless it accepts childish partisan bickering and accusation hurling instead of bipartisan cooperation and decisive action.
What Exodus

United States

#2 Dec 30, 2007
I am glad that you have called the fee hikes what they really are - taxes. Bush has been pumping these up for years at the federal level. These fees end up costing fee payers Billions of dollars more for services that the government should be covering out of existing budgets.
That said, how is a $25 fee that you only get charged if you leave your house going to create an exodus out of the county. I guess you would have to pay the fee if you moved to another house in the county, but I can't believe anyone really thinks about that compared to all of the other fees already included in the transaction.
Taxes-taxes-taxe s

Darien, IL

#3 Dec 30, 2007
All these taxes will make Marion County, not just the old city, the hole in the doughnut.

Already people are fleeing to the surrounding counties.

Even CARMEL has lower taxes than Washington Township!

WAKE UP, Washington Township Civil Board, who just passed a budget along party lines (Democrat majority) that increased UNNECESSARILY 13% over last year's, which requres increased taxes to pay for it. The WT Township Board is up for election this November 2008.

WAKE UP, Washington Township School Board and Aministrators, who just approved a $183 million UNNECESSARY bond issue to "save" less than $2 million per year in closed schools. AGAIN, more taxes are needed to pay for this. Three of the five WT School Board positions are up for election this MAY 2008!

Let's turn the tax-and-spend incumbents out of office! That's the only recourse we have!
Already is

Panama City, FL

#4 Dec 30, 2007
Taxes-taxes-taxes wrote:
All these taxes will make Marion County, not just the old city, the hole in the doughnut.
Already people are fleeing to the surrounding counties.
MC already is the hole in the "doughnut" - the black hole where tax dollars disappear into the pockets of individuals like Irsay and pork projects, never to be seen again by the working folks paying the taxes. The recording fee does not bother me - it amounts to $25 on an infrequent transaction for most folks - as long as, for once, the money is actually spent on what it is supposedly being collected for. However, one would think with all the taxes already in place, there would have been money in the budget for this without yet another tax.
Carl Hoffman

New Albany, IN

#5 Dec 30, 2007
Any money paid to any government is a tax no matter what it is called. Bening a vet I to feel some should get more but his is not the way it should be done. We are not serf's or slaves and voters need to vote out the elected who feel we are. Given a choice would you go to a state where you really could own real estate or one with taxes that made you a renter for life. Indiana needs to do away with the property tax and move to a sale tax. Everyone pays illegal or legal and chooses when and what to purchase. Allow property to be held by freeholders like our founding fathers intended, why should real estate owners pay a tax no one else has to?
Free to choose

Florence, KY

#6 Dec 30, 2007
It's just death by a thousand paper cuts. I doubt that this one will really be the last straw for anyone, but it points to the main idea that those in office really don't get it. They don't understand why Peterson was unelected.

Feel good tax and spend is not what the people want. They want people to be more self-reliant and not enabled by politicians who steal from the able to give to the unwilling.

For all of this, people do leave Marion County, because they rob Peter to pay Paul a bit less in the donut counties.(I don't think they get it in those places either- they just haven't built as elaborate a government there yet.)
Cry Me A River

Panama City, FL

#7 Dec 30, 2007
Chris wrote:
Now, the income tax hike certainly has more of an impact. Yet, interestingly enough, Mayor-elect Ballard has said the tax hike is "here to stay." I guess he realized he can't keep his campaign promise to cut $70 million a year from the city budget if he helps eliminate a $90 million dollar a year source of revenue.***
The real problem is the property tax fiasco, and that is a statewide problem, which the General Assembly needs to finally decide to resolve--enough with the "special commissions" and endless proposals. Property taxes need to be capped and special credits need to be given to lower-income individuals. The state needs to assume the cost of state-mandated welfare programs and the entire cost of public education--except for special construction projects which can be locally voted on. Duplicative layers of local government and duplicative local officals need to be eliminated. Also, local governments need to be given expanded revenue options to vote to implement as alternatives to property taxes, such as additional sales taxes, income taxes, business taxes, etc. Finally, special consideration must be given to cities. Indianapolis is not Carmel (nor Fishers, Avon, etc.), and it never will be--cities have different and greater needs (i.e. older and more complex infrastructure, larger poor populations, etc.) than suburban and rural areas, and they require more revenue to operate.
1. It is pretty darn near impossible to roll back Bart's MC income tax hike without redoing the budget that was passed by MC's council on the assumption that those tax dollars would be available. Perhaps next year.

2. Property taxes are local taxes, and the fiasco is directly attributable to local government and schools, some local governments and schools being worse about the fiscal mismanagement and outrageous spending than others. The State had nothing to do with it, and those local governments and schools should not be stuck with a bail out.

3. I agree that if local governments and schools need more money, they should look to businesses. Individuals are tapped out, and businesses do not pay the county income tax. To be clear, however, individuals need tax relief, and changing the form (decreasing property taxes on individuals, only to raise the sales tax and income taxes paid by individuals) accomplished nothing. Local governments and schools need to spend less and look to private investment and voluntary contribution to fund non-essential services and construction.

4. Not buying "cites (i.e., Indianapolis)have different and greater needs" and merit "special consideration" if you are talking about any form of State funding. New construction is expensive. Once those structures and infrastructures are built, the cost should go down because what you are talking about it maintenance. Sure, there comes a point where the structure and infrastructure needs to be replaced BUT that is a budgeting issue.(Hello, cities know that day will come - budget for it.) Part of Indianapolis' problem is that it spent maintenance money and infrastructure fees on other things, and now the bill is due. In addition, folks in rural areas pay (or should pay) less for government services because they pay for their own water and sewer (via wells and septic systems) and trash collection, among other things. The bottom line is that Indianapolis can cry a river all it wants about its fiscal woes, but no way should the State use State funds (collected from all Indiana residents) to bail MC/Indianapolis out, in particular when, despite their fiscal woes, Indianapolis still plans to hand over almost $50 Million in tax dollars to yet another private developer for yet another hotel.
First thought

AOL

#8 Dec 30, 2007
$25 is not much, I'll agree. BUT, it does add up to a million dollars taken from the productive and given to the non-productive. More and more of this is done everyday. It's out of control now.
Don't you agree it's wrong to punish the productive and reward the non-productive? Where will that lead to? I think we can agree the biggest majority of homeless people have a mental disorder or drug problem. I would feel better if they took my money to build mental hospitals. Maybe some good can come from that.
pay attention

Seymour, IN

#9 Dec 30, 2007
maybe it's a temporary tax like the one on the Loser Dome.
Tom in TENN

Jamestown, KY

#10 Dec 30, 2007
Chris wrote:
No one likes taxes, but let's have a little honesty: The "11th hour tax increase" is a recording fee which amounts to an extra $2.50 to record a deed and $1 for each page of a real estate transaction document (with the average mortgage document being roughly 20 pages long). The Metropolitan Indianapolis Board of Realtors, which opposed the fee increase, said it would amount to about $25 extra for a typical home sale transaction (the extra recording fee, plus the cost of a typical mortgage document). I have never in my life heard of an extra $25 killing a home sale, and I never will because an extra $25 for a home sale is a negligible amount. Also, the recording fee increase was properly noticed and had been planned and publicly discussed for quite some time--it hardly qualifies as an "11th hour" action, unless one thinks that the City-County Council should just stop functioning for the last couple of months of the year.
Now, the income tax hike certainly has more of an impact. Yet, interestingly enough, Mayor-elect Ballard has said the tax hike is "here to stay." I guess he realized he can't keep his campaign promise to cut $70 million a year from the city budget if he helps eliminate a $90 million dollar a year source of revenue. Also, the fact that the city's credit rating was restored as a direct result of the new tax hike probably helped him warm up to it, too.
The real problem is the property tax fiasco, and that is a statewide problem, which the General Assembly needs to finally decide to resolve--enough with the "special commissions" and endless proposals. Property taxes need to be capped and special credits need to be given to lower-income individuals. The state needs to assume the cost of state-mandated welfare programs and the entire cost of public education--except for special construction projects which can be locally voted on. Duplicative layers of local government and duplicative local officals need to be eliminated. Also, local governments need to be given expanded revenue options to vote to implement as alternatives to property taxes, such as additional sales taxes, income taxes, business taxes, etc. Finally, special consideration must be given to cities. Indianapolis is not Carmel (nor Fishers, Avon, etc.), and it never will be--cities have different and greater needs (i.e. older and more complex infrastructure, larger poor populations, etc.) than suburban and rural areas, and they require more revenue to operate.
The public is not ignorant--unless it accepts childish partisan bickering and accusation hurling instead of bipartisan cooperation and decisive action.
Chris, you are an idiot. You have missed the point about the recording fee. It's another tax, you moron. Taxes nickle & dime people to death. Just look at you utility bills and wittness all the hidden taxes & charges. The telephone bill. Now there's a place with all kinds of taxes & charges. You cell phone bill. Gasoline costs. It's a constant tax, tax, tax on the people, and fools like you can't see it because you're a liberal democrat fruit basket.
American

Jeffersonville, OH

#11 Dec 30, 2007
Republicans are just big-police Liberals.
Ann Coulter

Indianapolis, IN

#12 Dec 30, 2007
Tom in TENN wrote:
<quoted text> Chris, you are an idiot. You have missed the point about the recording fee. It's another tax, you moron. Taxes nickle & dime people to death. Just look at you utility bills and wittness all the hidden taxes & charges. The telephone bill. Now there's a place with all kinds of taxes & charges. You cell phone bill. Gasoline costs. It's a constant tax, tax, tax on the people, and fools like you can't see it because you're a liberal democrat fruit basket.
I'm a liberal and I'm well aware of how corporate America and the Republicans are taxing me to death and giving me little relief or services or competition.Thank you. Look at health care and gas prices.You are the idoit if you think the people in charge know are going to make things better. They have had their chance.Time for a change and it will start in the White House.
MKNA Resident

Glenwood, IN

#13 Dec 30, 2007
As I said before: We're on the brink of leaving Marion Co. and we certainly would never buy a bigger house here (which -- once upon a time -- was our intention). Our next move will be the suburbs!
Educated Voter

Glenwood, IN

#14 Dec 30, 2007
Ann Coulter wrote:
<quoted text>I'm a liberal and I'm well aware of how corporate America and the Republicans are taxing me to death and giving me little relief or services or competition.Thank you. Look at health care and gas prices.You are the idoit if you think the people in charge know are going to make things better. They have had their chance.Time for a change and it will start in the White House.
You're clearly not Ann Coulter. She is smart enough to realize that Republicans CUT taxes (as Bush as done several times), while bleeding-heart libs will tax, spend, tax and spend more. They'll use the money to keep people who have already been on welfare their entire lives on welfare for the rest of them! Obviously, the war is a much better expenditure. Don't insult Ann Coulter by using her name.
Daniels tax increase

United States

#15 Dec 30, 2007
Mitch increased the cigarette tax. Mitch increased the donut county tax. Mitch supported the current property tax increases. He did not veto it. Now Mitch wants to increase the sales tax 17%. Yeah, only democrats increase taxes.

Explain to me why the new mayor and city council are not talking about recinding the 65% tax increase?? The Star is saying nothing about it.

As for Bush, 3 trillion of deficit spending and counting. Yeah, it is the democrats that are fiscally ir-responsible!!! Are you a bleeding heart conservative?

Educated Voter wrote:
<quoted text>
You're clearly not Ann Coulter. She is smart enough to realize that Republicans CUT taxes (as Bush as done several times), while bleeding-heart libs will tax, spend, tax and spend more. They'll use the money to keep people who have already been on welfare their entire lives on welfare for the rest of them! Obviously, the war is a much better expenditure. Don't insult Ann Coulter by using her name.
Sharron Ann Hill

Indianapolis, IN

#16 Dec 30, 2007
Thanks to the City County Council
We are having enough problems with the Real Estate Market, especially in Marion County.......Are you trying to completely trying to turn this into a
Ghost Town?
I'm trying to make a living here as well as many other Realtors. We have people that are wanting to move up, move into first time homes and can't or won't because of the costs and it's true, your helping people make the decision to go to outlaying counties
Somebody needs to stop these council memebers from taking us all down..
Call the Mayor! Let us all E mail
everyday till this stops I feel like I'm living in New Jersey or Detroit
Realtor here for almost 24 years, and I'd like to continue
larry

Clayton, IN

#17 Dec 30, 2007
Carl Hoffman wrote:
Any money paid to any government is a tax no matter what it is called. Bening a vet I to feel some should get more but his is not the way it should be done. We are not serf's or slaves and voters need to vote out the elected who feel we are. Given a choice would you go to a state where you really could own real estate or one with taxes that made you a renter for life. Indiana needs to do away with the property tax and move to a sale tax. Everyone pays illegal or legal and chooses when and what to purchase. Allow property to be held by freeholders like our founding fathers intended, why should real estate owners pay a tax no one else has to?
A sales tax is an excise tax. Excise taxes should fall on busineses, not people as you suggest. I recommed no income, sales or property taxes on people or their homes. Instead institute user fees, excise taxes and lotteries and other ideas for raising revenue as long as it is not on the backs of the people or their homes.
TIRED OF IT

Freetown, IN

#18 Dec 30, 2007
PEOPLE, It is a TAX,no matter which way you look at it. When the Government has their hand(s) in it=TAXES!!! Hell,that is what they do,sit in their offices and try to think of what to TAX next!!Does any one know how MANY different taxes that WE pay ???? An answer would be nice,Thank you..
Educated Voter

Glenwood, IN

#19 Dec 30, 2007
Daniels tax increase wrote:
Mitch increased the cigarette tax. Mitch increased the donut county tax. Mitch supported the current property tax increases. He did not veto it. Now Mitch wants to increase the sales tax 17%. Yeah, only democrats increase taxes.
Explain to me why the new mayor and city council are not talking about recinding the 65% tax increase?? The Star is saying nothing about it.
As for Bush, 3 trillion of deficit spending and counting. Yeah, it is the democrats that are fiscally ir-responsible!!! Are you a bleeding heart conservative?
<quoted text>
The cigarette tax I couldn't care less about. One who smokes has the option to quit; who else should pay for health care costs caused by lack of personal responsbility? The donut tax was initiated to pay for the new Colts stadium "negotiated" ("given away" would be more appropriate) by Peterson to Irsay. Mitch Daniels didn't have the power to "veto" the property tax increase, but he is certainly leading the effort to revamp it -- which should have been done YEARS AGO under, perhaps, O'Bannon or Kernan (both worthless "leaders", by the way). You can't blame all your issues on Mitch -- he's only been in office 3 years.
Ballard never said he would rescind (notice correct spelling) the COIT increase RAMMED through by the Democratically-controlled council despite loud and frequent taxpayer protests. Why would he do that? I do feel confident he will try to reduce taxes once he sees where cuts can be made and gets a handle on the depth of the Peterson mess.
Democrats do tax and spend. History proves it. And if the next President is a Democrat, he/she will continue to prove it. Several have already said they would eliminate the tax cuts Bush initiated. Mark my words. In the meantime, educate yourself.
P.S. Irresponsible is one word.

Since: Jul 07

Indianapolis, IN

#20 Dec 30, 2007
Daniels tax increase wrote:
Are you a bleeding heart conservative?
<quoted text>
To my knowledge you are the first to accuse a conservative of having a heart.
No true conservative would plead guilty.

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